A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    Okay, so the following follows a simple premise: the monk's unarmed strikes are both natural and manufactured weapons.

    Thri-Kreen, having four arms, are eligible for Multiattack and Multiweapon Fighting.

    So consider thus: A Thri-Kreen Monk 20 (buying off the +1 LA) has a BAB of +16, giving us an attack pattern of +16/+11/+6/+1. Take TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Multiattack, MWF, IMWF, and GMWF. There's your seven feats. Hell, take a flaw and grab Snap Kick too.

    So without Flurry, that gives us an attack pattern of +12/+7/+2/-3/+12/+7/+2/-3/+12/+7/+2/-3/+12/+7/+2/-3/+12/+7/+2/-3/+12/+12/+12/+12/+12.

    That is, Primary/Secondary (TWF)/Secondary (MWF)/Tertiary (MWF)/Quaternary (MWF)/Secondary (Multiattack: second, third, fourth arms, bite)/Snap Kick.

    Now, toss in Flurry of Blows for an absolutely ridiculous attack pattern:

    +12/+12/+12/+7/+2/-3//+12/+7/+2/-3/+12/+7/+2/-3/+12/+7/+2/-3/+12/+7/+2/-3/+12/+12/+12/+12/+12.

    Monks also can get Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. Pump your Dex. Watch your DM groan whenever you attack.
    Last edited by Fax Celestis; 2007-01-30 at 10:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    Ermmm, if I'm following that attack pattern correctly, how are you getting 4 attacks per weapon without Perfect Multiweapon Fighting?

    Also,
    Special

    This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
    I don't think you can get TWF and MWF.
    Man this thing was full of outdated stuff.
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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    So ignore the TWF. You're still ridiculous.

    EDIT: Right, I think too fast. Let me revise:

    Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, MWF, IMWF, GMWF, Snap Kick, Flurry of Blows:

    +14/+14/+14/+9/+4/-1/+14/+9/+4/+14/+9/+4/+14/+9/+4/+14/+14/+14/+14/+14.
    Last edited by Fax Celestis; 2007-01-30 at 10:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    ...and then take some improved grappling stuff and go crazy grappling the living hell out of people. Take Improved Natural Attack for more damage, too.
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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcow View Post
    ...and then take some improved grappling stuff and go crazy grappling the living hell out of people. Take Improved Natural Attack for more damage, too.
    hm...


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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    Don't Tri-Keen also start with several monstrous humanoid hit dice, raising their ECL even more?

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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    The racial HD is how it gets the BAB for 4 attacks.
    Man this thing was full of outdated stuff.
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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    Except that racial HD count towards when you stop getting BAB and start Epic Attack Bonus, so you have BAB +2 (racial) + 13 (Monk 18) = 15, not enough for four iterative attacks. To get 16 you'll need two more levels of full BAB progression pre-epic.
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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    Except that racial HD count towards when you stop getting BAB and start Epic Attack Bonus, so you have BAB +2 (racial) + 13 (Monk 18) = 15, not enough for four iterative attacks. To get 16 you'll need two more levels of full BAB progression pre-epic.
    Or you assume LA buyoff (which he did in his calculations) and the extra level of monk pushes his BAB to +16, getting him 4 attacks.
    Man this thing was full of outdated stuff.
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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    That only works for the level adjustment, not racial hit dice, and I was already counting the LA as bought off.
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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    Um, I thought monks using flurry of blows could never get off-hand attacks, because they're already using their whole body? Certainly the wording on pages 40-41 of the PHB suggests that to me, particularly the example of the monk using two ends of a quarterstaff.

    Certainly a Thri-Kreen with the Multiweapon Fighting feats can get a lot of attacks (as can any many-armed creature), which would be very effective, but they can't combine that with a flurry of blows. I think the most you could get before epic levels and without Haste would be twelve attacks.

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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    The RAW is not entirely clear on the matter, so we have to go with the official interpretation in the FAQ which explicitly states that Flurry and TWF can be combined.
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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    I know you are taking alot of feats already, but have you considered adding the Illithid Grapple to the mix? (Part of the Illithid Heritage feat chain). Each time you take it, it gives you a tentacle attack to the max of 4 tentacles. Getting all 4 tentacles requires 6 feats due to prerequisites.

    Now combine these 4 tentacles, with the 4 arms, and the gloves of man from savage species...........I ain't going to finish this thought.

    On another note, a thri keen with 4 tentacles coming out of its mouth is a face that only a mother can love.

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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithF View Post
    Um, I thought monks using flurry of blows could never get off-hand attacks, because they're already using their whole body? Certainly the wording on pages 40-41 of the PHB suggests that to me, particularly the example of the monk using two ends of a quarterstaff.
    I'd actually asked about just that a little while ago, and I do believe the consensus on the forums was that you can do it, but you need a weapon(s, in this case) other than your unarmed attack for the off-hand attacks.

    Am I right?

    Also, did _I_ inspire this monstrousity somehow?

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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    No, you're not right. A monk can flurry with most of his body and two weapon fight with his knee if he wants.

    And no, this is not game breaking. You're still a monk with low BAB and low damage, so the first thing with DR15/cold iron that gets in your path leaves you crying. A Charger could do as much damage in a single hit as you'd get if you managed to hit with all your attacks.

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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    my question to you is where did you only get +1 LA adjustment for thri-kreens? Is it from the Psionics Handbook. In the MMII, a non-psionic thri-kreen is a +3 LA and a psionic one is a +5 LA.

    Edit. Oh, and I see flaw in your character. Multiweapon fighting replaces two weapon fighting. To my knowledge, you can't have both MWF and TWF. And I see after further inspection this has already been mentioned.
    Last edited by purple gelatinous cube o' Doom; 2007-01-31 at 12:19 AM.
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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    On another note, a thri keen with 4 tentacles coming out of its mouth is a face that only a hentai chick can love.
    There. Fixed it for you.
    Last edited by Solo; 2007-01-31 at 12:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    No, the FAQ says (and the forums, as far as I've noticed, agree) that you can TWF with nothing but unarmed attacks. There's no reason why you couldn't. You can TWF with unarmed as your off-hand attack and a weapon as your primary attack, and there's no sound logic by which you couldn't switch another unarmed attack for the primary attack.

    Anyway, everyone should know the Perfect Multiweapon Fighting thri-kreen. The thing is, it's not that impressive. Attack bonus and real damage output probably won't match a properly optimized THW build, and casters will continue to laugh at you. If you could get full sneak attack or something, you'd actually be getting close to breaking the game. (Once you actually get up to epic levels and PMWF, it's irrelevant, because Epic Spellcasting wins the game.)
    Last edited by Thomas; 2007-01-31 at 12:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    How about Scout 3/Monk 1/Ranger 14 with Swift Hunter, Ascetic Hunter, and Improved Skirmish. Gives you some skirmish damage on this build, and when combine with lion charge. Note Ranger should give you Multiweapon Fighting instead of Two Weapon Fighting as part of the ranger combat mastery.

    And for the above posters, the EXH version of thri keen is 2 racial monstrous humanoid hd and 2 la, he is buying back the LA.
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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by purple gelatinous cube o' Doom View Post
    my question to you is where did you only get +1 LA adjustment for thri-kreens? Is it from the Psionics Handbook. In the MMII, a non-psionic thri-kreen is a +3 LA and a psionic one is a +5 LA.
    I'm guessing the numbers you're referencing are actually a thri-kreen's starting ECL, which includes racial hit dice. Non-psionic thri-kreen have two racial HD and one level adjustment.
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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    Except that racial HD count towards when you stop getting BAB and start Epic Attack Bonus, so you have BAB +2 (racial) + 13 (Monk 18) = 15, not enough for four iterative attacks. To get 16 you'll need two more levels of full BAB progression pre-epic.
    Actually, it's the other way around. You don't use the Epic Progression until your class levels hit 20.

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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    I am assuming the main sticky for the epic level boards is correct especially since its the first thing in the sticky

    When is my character considered epic?
    Okay, this is a complicated question. Being epic comes in stages, like so:
    • When your ECL reaches 21, you begin using epic experience tables and epic wealth guidelines.
    • When you have 21 total HD, you may begin gaining epic feats.
    • When you have 21 character levels, you begin using the epic base attack bonus and save progressions. Note that racial HD are not included in this calculation--they do not use epic attack and save progressions.
    • When you have 21 levels in a particular class, you begin using the appropriate epic class progression.
    • When you have 20 total HD, including 10 levels in a prestige class, you may begin gaining epic levels in that prestige class.
    When the Epic Level Handbook makes statements like "[class] does not [class ability] after 20th level," they are referring to your 20th class level, not your 20th character level. Specific examples of this are spells per day for spellcasters, and unarmed damage for monks.

    http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=430042
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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    I was sure that Douglas was right...you hit epic progression when your character's ECL is 21+. Two racial hit die, no LA, means 18 class levels pre-epic. Interpreting it otherwise just leads to rampant cheese. Hit dice are just like class levels, but without class abilities.

    There's no way that a level 20 juvenile dragon wizard with 13d12 + 20d4 hp etc etc etc who's bought off a +4 LA (Can't remember if +4 LA is buyoffable) is not epic. He'd also have a +23 BAB and 12 points of natural armor.
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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    The dragon in your example is indeed Epic (see the handy chart Ramza posted), but he does not use Epic save and attack progressions.

    Those are two entirely different kettles of fish. If racial hit dice counted towards Epic progressions, then Great Wyrm Dragons would be stuck with a BAB of 20, and that... would be much less scary. Or even good.

    edit: besides which, that particular dragon (in addition to making a very poor class choice) is somewhere between ECL 33 and 39. Is a +23 BAB really cheesy?
    Last edited by PhoeKun; 2007-01-31 at 01:26 AM.

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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by purple gelatinous cube o' Doom View Post
    my question to you is where did you only get +1 LA adjustment for thri-kreens? Is it from the Psionics Handbook.
    No, it's not. The non-psionic thri-keen presented in Savage Species, and possibly one of the monstrous manuals, is 2 monstrous humanoid HD (which, by HD standards, aren't too shabby) and only a +1 LA. Using buyoff rules, that can go away pretty quickly in the build.
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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    You gain epic BaB progression (and saves progression) when your HD reaches 21, unless all of your HD are racial, in which case you keep progressing normally.

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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    It says when you have 21 character levels, and note that racial HD don't count... that sounds pretty explicit.

    On the other hand, the only time I can see this build being useful is with something like a colossal monk :D

    (2d10, 4d8, 6d8, 12d6, 18d6?)

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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    Well, at level 20, you got yourself a +12 to hit, which is not bad, but it's not really that great either. I don't really see this as game breaking since you'll still have to come up with ways to get around DR, high ACs, and all that stuff.

    Of course, this is where equipment comes in.

    If you can get somebody to continuously cast "greater magic fang" on you, and get custom items that allows you to bypass the DR, you'd be golden I think.

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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    Psionic Thri-Kreen get Metaphysical Claw as a psi-like ability, so that's taken care of. As for DR, wear gauntlets.

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    Default Re: Breaking The Game With A Thri-Kreen Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax_Celestis View Post
    Psionic Thri-Kreen get Metaphysical Claw as a psi-like ability, so that's taken care of. As for DR, wear gauntlets.
    Can't flurry with gauntlets, but you can always use your non hands as your flurry.

    4 attacks from primary hand
    3 attacks from secondary hand
    3 attacks from third hand
    3 attacks from fourth head.
    2 headbutts or kicks or something (note these won't penetrate DR besides lawful, and adamintine)

    You gain 3 more attacks when you take pwf.
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