pulling out trees

[Bender]

some big monsters pull out trees for throwing or eating or whatever reason. I was wondering what the DC of pulling out trees could be. I guess it's a strength check, and bigger creatures are probably better at it than smaller... Maybe a modifier for deep rooted trees or rotten trees.

Some ideas:
a monster can only pull out trees of the same size category or smaller (maybe not too valid)
a monster can pull out a tree if the tree is a light load (pulling out trees is harder than just lifting something) by taking 20
a monster can pull out a tree if the tree is half a light load by taking 10.

any suggestions? How long would an action like that take?

[daggaz]

This kind of things should be VERY, VERY hard. I base my judgement on my own real-life experiences.

As a medium sized human with a strength of probably somewhere between 12-14 and a con of 16, I once pulled this trick. I was in the woods at a school outing, cutting firewood with an axe. Some leader-type older student found me and (they really didnt like that I had an axe) tried to tell me I couldn't cut wood, even tho I was only cutting dead wood, the landowner left evidence all over that he really didnt care for the dead trees, and the bonfires were giving this party +10's across the board.

Anyhow, after a long argument, he took my axe but on the condition that I could still gather wood, albeit only dead wood that I could gather with my own bare hands.

Well, after he left, I took a second look at the dead tree I had just started on. It was maybe 14-18 inches in diameter and about a good twenty feet tall. Even better, it grew on a steep slope (probably 50-60 degrees) made of very soft and loose farming soil. I gave it a push. It wiggled.

One hour of hard pushing later, the tree was lying on its side, still firmly fastened to the earth. A half hour more of strenuous twisting and turning, and I had managed to wrest it from the soil. You should have seen their faces (especially his) when I came wading into camp with the entire thing up on my shoulder... a giant root ball in front and the branches hanging out behind me. Oh yeah...did I mention I was hammered drunk?

So anyways, thats with some serious steadfast determination, a strength bonus from being drunk (but not too drunk), and a bunch of modifiers on my side. It still took almost two hours. And the tree wasn't even that big. It was small, really, as far as trees go.

Pulling living trees or just their stumps out by their roots (something I've done while clearing land) is an all day process that takes a lot of strenuous labor if you dont have machinery. It can't be done quickly by any medium sized creature that doesn't possess supernatural/bestail/epic strength. I'm talking over 18. And thats a small sized tree like above, only without any circumstance modifiers. A large creature with good strength, like an Ogre, would still be challenged.. It would probably take an hour or two of hard work. They would be much more inclined to just snap it off at the base (much easier).

For bigger trees, things that are 2-3 feet wide at the base, you had better be at least huge sized, probably larger. For full on BIG trees (like old-growth douglas fir, teak, redwood, mahogany, etc..) I'm thinking you had better be at least gargantuan, tho collosal is probably more like it.

[Gamebird]

A agree with daggaz.

any suggestions? How long would an action like that take?

I suggest you go out to the nearest park, forest, stand of woods or wilderness area. Find a shrub, bush or sapling that no one's going to miss. Don't pick ornamental shrubs in garden arrangements, anything recently planted or anything surrounded by loose or worked soil. Grab it. Try to pull it out without breaking it off.

Then think about your results.

[Mewtarthio]

I think he may be talking about "some big monsters." Like, say, the Tarrasque.

[Bender]

This kind of things should be VERY, VERY hard. I base my judgement on my own real-life experiences.

It will be hard for a medium sized creature with moderate strength to pull out a big tree, but I have no problems pulling out a sapling or a small shrubbery

One hour of hard pushing later, the tree was lying on its side, still firmly fastened to the earth. A half hour more of strenuous twisting and turning, and I had managed to wrest it from the soil. You should have seen their faces (especially his) when I came wading into camp with the entire thing up on my shoulder... a giant root ball in front and the branches hanging out behind me. Oh yeah...did I mention I was hammered drunk?

nice job btw

A large creature with good strength, like an Ogre, would still be challenged.. It would probably take an hour or two of hard work. They would be much more inclined to just snap it off at the base (much easier).

Is it easier to snap of a tree at the base? I'd think that's true for a dead tree, but living wood can be more difficult. And what would the DC be for snapping a tree of say 30 cm in diameter (1 foot for who likes old units )

I suggest you go out to the nearest park, forest, stand of woods or wilderness area. Find a shrub, bush or sapling that no one's going to miss. Don't pick ornamental shrubs in garden arrangements, anything recently planted or anything surrounded by loose or worked soil. Grab it. Try to pull it out without breaking it off.

I did that, and some very small trees I can pull out in 3 seconds, making it a standard action, some larger versions take me several minutes. Others still longer or are plain impossible.
I just wondered how that translates to a gargantuan giant with strength 45 pulling out an ancient oak.

I think he may be talking about "some big monsters." Like, say, the Tarrasque.

exactly

[Mewtarthio]

I did that, and some very small trees I can pull out in 3 seconds, making it a standard action, some larger versions take me several minutes. Others still longer or are plain impossible.
I just wondered how that translates to a gargantuan giant with strength 45 pulling out an ancient oak.

Okay, now I've got an image of a guy going to the municipal park with a stopwatch systematically uprooting everything in sight.

[headwarpage]

In the real world, it depends greatly on the the size of the tree (obviously), the type of tree, the health of the tree, and the soil involved. It's fairly easy to uproot a half-dead fir that's barely clinging to a rock. It's nearly impossible to uproot a healthy oak of any significant size, because of the taproot.

In D&D, I'd rule about a DC 15-20 strength check to uproot even a sapling, ranging up to DC 75+ for mature trees, with appropriate circumstance modifiers. In general, a fairly strong character should have about a 20-40% chance of uprooting a healthy tree that's as tall as he is or slightly taller, give or take a little. I'd rule a full round action to make the attempt, with maybe a -5 or -10 penalty to do it as a standard action, allowing characters to take 10 or 20 as usual. Don't worry too much about the loads - that just forces you to figure out how much a tree weighs.

It's not perfect, but it's something to work with.

[daggaz]

yeah you definitely gotta be careful when dealing with soil type and the species of tree. Especially with saplings.

Some saplings are notoriously easy to yank out.. like alder for example. They dont really make much of a taproot until they are well over your head. Then they get pretty hard to yank. Other trees, like douglass fir, send down an anchoring tap root almost immediately. A young fir in deep soil is neigh impossible to yank out.

And of course the type of soil is important.. sandy, loose rock, especially thin forest soils over rock... the tree has no chance until its bigger.

And once again, try it with a sapling that is taller than you, it always makes a huge difference.

As for snapping them off at the base... yeah for a human its pretty much impossible either way, but now we are talking about huge and greater creatures with large body masses and immense strengths. For them, it would be possible and it would be definitely easier than yanking the tree out by the roots. It would still be very hard to do tho, even if the tree is dead (but not rotten).

As for DC's, I would go kinda with headwarpage, but I would put the chance for a medium character of good str down to about 10-20% for a tree of the same height or slightly taller (and thats not even grown yet). For anything bigger, you would be forced to take 20 to even attempt it. But then its hard to figure out how to roll in a chance to miss...