The Underneath - 3.5 Encounter

[JBarca]

So for a session I'm DM'ing this coming Saturday, I'm having my players go up against a Domination-themed monster. It isn't overly powerful alone, but it has a whole host of "allies" that it has "enlisted" to defend it, and hopes to add the PCs to this list. It lives in the Underdark and typically preys upon the Drow, so it'll have, at the very least, a Drow adventuring party immediately defending it, plus a slew of monsters throughout its lair.
A few CR calculators I've seen have pegged this as CR 18-19. Does that seem about right?
If you have any advice regarding, well, anything to do with this guy, that'd be great.
Thanks for your time.

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The Underneath
Medium Aberration
Hit Dice: 16d8+144 (220 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), climb 20 ft.
Armor Class: 31 (+3 Dex, +10 natural, +8 insight), touch 21, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+16 (+20 with tentacles) (+24 post-Improved Grab)
Attack: Bite +16 melee (1d4+6) or tentacle +15 melee touch (weakening)
Full Attack: Bite +16 melee (1d4+6) and 4 tentacles +15 melee touch (weakening)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. (20 ft. with tentacles)
Special Attacks: Weakening, improved grab, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Spell resistance 29, telepathy 200 ft., damage reduction 10/magic, blindsight 200 ft., regeneration 5, immunity to fire, immunity to acid, electricity vulnerability, fast healing 1, foresight, impossible mind
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +16, Will +15
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 16, Con 28, Int 26, Wis 20, Cha 28
Skills:
Feats: Improved Initiative, MultiattackB, Weapon Focus (Tentacle)B, Ability Focus (Weakening), Quicken Spell-like Ability (Touch of Idiocy), Empower Spell-like Ability (Touch of Idiocy), Heighten Spell-like Ability (Dominate Person)
Challenge Rating: ??
Treasure: Double coins; double goods; 50% items
Alignment: NE

Weakening (Su): Any creature struck by the Underneath’s tentacle attack must make a Will Save (DC 29) or suffer a cumulative -2 penalty on all saves for 2 minutes. This duration is measured from the most recent tentacle attack. This penalty stacks with itself. The save DC is Charisma based.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, The Underneath must hit a huge or smaller creature with its tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and attaches its tentacle to its opponent. The Underneath need not move into its opponent’s square during this grapple, it merely needs to be able to reach the opponent. Its tentacles remain “stretched” over the squares between The Underneath and its prey for the duration of the grapple, and other creatures may attempt to dislodge them, either with an opposed strength check or a sunder attempt. The Underneath receives a +4 bonus on this opposed strength check. The Underneath receives a +4 bonus on the opposed attack roll for the sunder attempt. Its tentacles for this purpose have The Underneath’s AC, with appropriate modifiers for being diminutive in size (34 AC).

In addition, all grapple attempts made as a result of this ability have a bonus equal to half The Underneath’s intelligence bonus.


Regeneration: The Underneath takes normal damage from good-aligned weapons, spells with the good descriptor, and electricity damage.

Impossible Mind (Ex): The Underneath’s mind is nearly unfathomable to mortals. It is immune to all mind-affecting abilities and effects. In addition, any creature attempting to initiate mental contact with it (as through telepathy, the spell detect thoughts, or other similar effects) must succeed on a Will Save (DC 26) or be confused (as per the spell confusion) for rounds equal to half The Underneath’s intelligence modifier.

Foresight (Ex): The Underneath receives an Insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves equal to its Intelligence modifier. This bonus does not apply if The Underneath would be denied its Dexterity bonus to AC. In addition, The Underneath cannot be caught flat-footed.

Spell-Like Abilities: Caster level 20th. The Save DCs are Charisma-based.
At will – Detect Thoughts (DC 21), Charm Person (DC 20), Mass Suggestion (DC 25), Touch of Idiocy
3/day – Dominate Person (DC 26), Mass Charm Person (DC 24)
1/day – Dominate Monster (DC 28)

[TheFamilarRaven]

seems fine ... really though ... any homebrew monster that's designed for one encounter is difficult to judge without knowledge of the party going against it.

But a standard party should have no trouble dealing with this monster by itself. THAT being said ... I feel like it's spell like abilities alone aren't enough for it to do what you want flavor-wise ... I would ditch the negative energy ability when grappled and instead replace it with a Dominate Person ability, like the tecticle enters the mind and controls them like that (You ever see Futurama: beast With a Billion Backs?)

But that's just what I would do ... it's not necessarily better than what you got.

[JBarca]

seems fine ... really though ... any homebrew monster that's designed for one encounter is difficult to judge without knowledge of the party going against it.

But a standard party should have no trouble dealing with this monster by itself. THAT being said ... I feel like it's spell like abilities alone aren't enough for it to do what you want flavor-wise ... I would ditch the negative energy ability when grappled and instead replace it with a Dominate Person ability, like the tecticle enters the mind and controls them like that (You ever see Futurama: beast With a Billion Backs?)

But that's just what I would do ... it's not necessarily better than what you got.

The thought behind the Energy Drain (and Weakening) was essentially just a means of making its Dominate ability more likely to succeed.

And I have seen Beast with a Billion Backs, actually... The Underneath could end up like that I suppose. Shkle would be more vulnerable like that, though. I dunno, definitely a fun idea, especially since I know that at least half the party watches Futurama.

The party is a Half-Minotaur War Hulk Ubercharger (The only optimized member of the party at all), a Mineral Warrior Dwarf Crusader (basically the WH's bodyshield), a Bard (party face/buffer), and a Cerebremancer/MindMage, based off Telepath and Enchanter bases.

Thanks for the thoughts.

[TheFamilarRaven]

The thought behind the Energy Drain (and Weakening) was essentially just a means of making its Dominate ability more likely to succeed.

Yeah, i figured as much. But negative energy to me seems more of an undead thing. Not that negative levels are exclusive to undead ... but it IS kinda their thing. Also, I think the weakening debuff is more than enough for the tentacles to lower the party's chances of Will save, without resorting to the more debilitating effect that are known as negative levels.

And I have seen Beast with a Billion Backs, actually... The Underneath could end up like that I suppose. Shkle would be more vulnerable like that, though. I dunno, definitely a fun idea, especially since I know that at least half the party watches Futurama.

Well as of now, The Underneath is no where near the size of Yeevo .... plus Shkle is debatably NG Also, if I thought of it, it's likely the members of the party who watch Futurama will make the connection, even if there is no actual connection (ex: "My minotaur charges shklim!"

The party is a Half-Minotaur War Hulk Ubercharger (The only optimized member of the party at all), a Mineral Warrior Dwarf Crusader (basically the WH's bodyshield), a Bard (party face/buffer), and a Cerebremancer/MindMage, based off Telepath and Enchanter bases.

Lol, I havn't even HEARD of half of those classes, I'm barely familiar with the Crusader's abilities. But that bard should have the party covered! In all seriousness though, if the party has access to mind protecting abilities (i.e spells, etc), they shouldn't die (or in in this case, be dominated permanently). This monster is pretty much shut down by Mind Blank and similar effects.

On another note ... Caster level seems high. My rules on estimating caster level for monsters may be fuzzy, but generally, I don't think their caster level can be higher than their HD, but then again, like i said I'm not sure.

Also, Touch of Idiocy has no save ... unless you knew that and decided to include one anyway.

As it is now I would estimate this monster to be CR 19, because it can seriously mess up a party of unprepared adventures of around that level. I'm guessing 18-19 is the CR you're going for.

[JBarca]

Yeah, i figured as much. But negative energy to me seems more of an undead thing. Not that negative levels are exclusive to undead ... but it IS kinda their thing. Also, I think the weakening debuff is more than enough for the tentacles to lower the party's chances of Will save, without resorting to the more debilitating effect that are known as negative levels.


Well as of now, The Underneath is no where near the size of Yeevo .... plus Shkle is debatably NG Also, if I thought of it, it's likely the members of the party who watch Futurama will make the connection, even if there is no actual connection (ex: "My minotaur charges shklim!"


Lol, I havn't even HEARD of half of those classes, I'm barely familiar with the Crusader's abilities. But that bard should have the party covered! In all seriousness though, if the party has access to mind protecting abilities (i.e spells, etc), they shouldn't die (or in in this case, be dominated permanently). This monster is pretty much shut down by Mind Blank and similar effects.

On another note ... Caster level seems high. My rules on estimating caster level for monsters may be fuzzy, but generally, I don't think their caster level can be higher than their HD, but then again, like i said I'm not sure.

Also, Touch of Idiocy has no save ... unless you knew that and decided to include one anyway.

As it is now I would estimate this monster to be CR 19, because it can seriously mess up a party of unprepared adventures of around that level. I'm guessing 18-19 is the CR you're going for.

Agreed on the Energy Drain. I think I'll be leaving that off, after all.

The CR ~18ish was the goal. The party is currently: Level 13 (Warhulk), 16 (Crusader), 15 (Cerebremancer), 15 (Bard). They regularly defeat things well above their level, and this is supposed to be a "Boss" battle of sorts. The only real magic they have access to is the Cerebremancer, and he is effectively a Psion12/Wizard12 currently, meaning no Mind Blank or the like. And, while the party relies heavily on Divinations, they never use them to discover how to prepare for battle, really. Which is interesting, and good for me... Battles are actually challenging for them that way!

CL for The Underneath is high mostly for the Dominate effects. He only has a limited amount/day, so in order to hold as many minions as possible he needs a longer duration. Otherwise he'll constantly be "renewing" his Dominations, rather than acquiring new minions.

Oh, good catch on ToI. I'll fix that one, too.

Also, its immediate allies, rather than Drow, are going to be some sort of mental assault team. When the party enters the area, they'll make Will Saves. On a fail, they'll each see the being they fear most appear before them. They'll only be able to affect/see their own fear so long as it stands, before aiding their allies. If they pass the save, they'll just fight what is essentially an Aleax of themselves. Should make for a lethal interesting fight.

Thanks a lot!

[Debihuman]

Multiattack means your secondary attack is at -2 penalty to hit instead of the normal -5. If both attacks are primary attacks, in 3.5 they cannot be used together as a full attack or one of them has to be a secondary attack (and takes the -2 penalty even if used as the only attack and then it doesn't appear on the attack line). Strength modifier on bite is only 4 if there is a secondary attack.

Either this:

Attack: Bite +16 melee (1d4+6) or tentacle +15 melee touch (weakening)
Full Attack: Bite +16 melee (1d4+6) or 4 tentacles +15 melee touch (weakening)

Or this

Attack: Bite +16 melee (1d4+4)
Full Attack: Bite +16 melee (1d4+4) and 4 tentacles +13 melee touch (weakening)

Flat-footed AC should be 28.

Armor Class: 31 (+3 Dex, +10 natural, +8 insight), touch 21, flat-footed 28

Save DCs need to state which ability they are based on. Saves are:10 + 1/2 creature's HD + ability modifier (and they may also have a bonus from a feat or racial ability that should be noted as well).

Weakening's save is DC 29 because of the Ability Focus feat, which should be noted in the text.

Impossible Mind's Will save is based on which ability?

It seems to be missing a feat.

Skills? Aberrations have skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Int modifier is +8. It gets 40 skill points for its 1st HD and 10 for the next 15 for a grand total of 190 skill points. It can have 19 ranks maximum in any skill. I recommend maxing out its skills so it has 10 skills at 19 ranks and then you add ability modifier adjustments and synergy adjustments.

Does it need a common language to use telepathy?

Not sure about CR; have you used Vorpal Tribble's CR Estimator?

Debby

[JBarca]

Multiattack means your secondary attack is at -2 penalty to hit instead of the normal -5. If both attacks are primary attacks, in 3.5 they cannot be used together as a full attack or one of them has to be a secondary attack (and takes the -2 penalty even if used as the only attack and then it doesn't appear on the attack line). Strength modifier on bite is only 4 if there is a secondary attack.

Either this:

Attack: Bite +16 melee (1d4+6) or tentacle +15 melee touch (weakening)
Full Attack: Bite +16 melee (1d4+6) or 4 tentacles +15 melee touch (weakening)

Or this

Attack: Bite +16 melee (1d4+4)
Full Attack: Bite +16 melee (1d4+4) and 4 tentacles +13 melee touch (weakening)

Wouldn't the second option be "4 tentacles +15 melee touch," then? 16 - 2 (Multiattack) + 1 (Weapon Focus)?

Flat-footed AC should be 28.

Armor Class: 31 (+3 Dex, +10 natural, +8 insight), touch 21, flat-footed 28

I was under the impression that insight bonuses are lost when flat-footed. Is this not actually the case?

Save DCs need to state which ability they are based on. Saves are:10 + 1/2 creature's HD + ability modifier (and they may also have a bonus from a feat or racial ability that should be noted as well).

Weakening's save is DC 29 because of the Ability Focus feat, which should be noted in the text.

Impossible Mind's Will save is based on which ability?

Good call

It seems to be missing a feat.

Oops, yep. I'll fix that

Skills? Aberrations have skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Int modifier is +8. It gets 40 skill points for its 1st HD and 10 for the next 15 for a grand total of 190 skill points. It can have 19 ranks maximum in any skill. I recommend maxing out its skills so it has 10 skills at 19 ranks and then you add ability modifier adjustments and synergy adjustments.

Does it need a common language to use telepathy?

It does not. I'll add the appropriate text.

Not sure about CR; have you used Vorpal Tribble's CR Estimator?

Debby

To be honest, I had forgotten to add up its skills. I'll do that today as well.

Vorpal Tribble's estimator gave me ~21 (give or take a few depending on the actual value of its attacks/qualities). That's a bit steep for my liking...
I'll have to take a look at removing an ability or two, perhaps.

Either way, thank you very much for checking this out.

[Debihuman]

Secondary attacks are always secondary and I missed the weapon focus on the tentacles obviously. Sorry about that.

12 BAB + 4 Str mod -2 multiattack +1 weapon focus feat = 15.

Creatures only get Strength +1/2 damage if they only have one attack; Bite and tentacles means the bite only uses Str modifier not Str and 1/2.

Flat-footed only means you lose your Dex bonus. Insight bonuses are not lost.


Debby