Vampire Questions

[Mathalor]

Why are all vampires evil? Do they get a choice in the matter? I get that Durkon is a new soul now, I'm asking about the new soul. Could he, if he wanted, choose to be good?

[Red XIV]

They have free will, so it should be possible for them to choose not to be evil if they wanted to. But their nature means that few if any would want to.

[Mathalor]

Thanks.

Another question. Why would Durkon (new) have any problem with his accent? Hel said she created him for the purpose of being, "Durkon." Shouldn't it come naturally?

[factotum]

Another question. Why would Durkon (new) have any problem with his accent? Hel said she created him for the purpose of being, "Durkon." Shouldn't it come naturally?

Hel never said anything of the kind. She said the new spirit was "birthed in her halls", but that doesn't mean it was specifically created to inhabit Durkon's body; she could have just used any spirit she had lying around the place to send into Durkon's empty shell.

[Mathalor]

Thanks again.

[Loreweaver15]

We also don't know if this was an exception--that Hel shoved this monster into Durkon's corpse when she had the shot--or the rule. I tend towards the former, myself, mostly because Malack evidently expected Durkula to BE Durkon with a craving for the blood of the living.

[Benthesquid]

We also don't know if this was an exception--that Hel shoved this monster into Durkon's corpse when she had the shot--or the rule. I tend towards the former, myself, mostly because Malack evidently expected Durkula to BE Durkon with a craving for the blood of the living.

My personal take is that a Vampire has both a Dark Spirit and the original being's Spirit inside. Evidently it's possible for the two to struggle for control, and in Durkon's case, the Dark Spirit is winning.

It may be that Malack won his battle, has imprisoned the Dark Spirit inside him, and expects Durkon to be able to do the same. Alternatively, it's possible that the Shaman and the Dark Spirit (and it occurs to me that it's not entirely clear where the name Malack came from) are in agreement in their cause of serving Nergal, and have combined forces, either literally merging into one personality, taking turns driving, or ruling by committee.

[NerdyKris]

My personal take is that a Vampire has both a Dark Spirit and the original being's Spirit inside. Evidently it's possible for the two to struggle for control, and in Durkon's case, the Dark Spirit is winning.

It may be that Malack won his battle, has imprisoned the Dark Spirit inside him, and expects Durkon to be able to do the same. Alternatively, it's possible that the Shaman and the Dark Spirit (and it occurs to me that it's not entirely clear where the name Malack came from) are in agreement in their cause of serving Nergal, and have combined forces, either literally merging into one personality, taking turns driving, or ruling by committee.

Or that Malack the snake person accepted Malack the vampire's control and they merged. To use the annoying Buffy example, it would be like how William/Spike don't exhibit the animosity towards eachother that Liam/Angelus displayed. (edit- yes, I agree that this is more of a plot inconsistency on Buffy, but it helps illustrate the example)

My guess is that it's a gradual merging. At this point, less than a day after the change, Durkon's soul is still very much struggling against the vampire. Two hundred years later, it's doubtful ANY soul would still be capable of resisting control.

[Loreweaver15]

Or that Malack the snake person accepted Malack the vampire's control and they merged. To use the annoying Buffy example, it would be like how William/Spike don't exhibit the animosity towards eachother that Liam/Angelus displayed. (edit- yes, I agree that this is more of a plot inconsistency on Buffy, but it helps illustrate the example)

My guess is that it's a gradual merging. At this point, less than a day after the change, Durkon's soul is still very much struggling against the vampire. Two hundred years later, it's doubtful ANY soul would still be capable of resisting control.

These theories ignore the fact that it's the dark spirit in control, not Durkon, and Malack expected Durkon :P

[Pokonic]

My guess is that the Vampire is a souless inteligence that arises in the shell of a vamp'ed creature. Presumably, Malack the vampire was in full control, having lived long enough where Malack the shaman is a non-entity when it comes to deciding things. Malack the vampire was a person in his own right, though, having lived long enough to have had developed personal relations with others that wasn't based on mayhem and slaughter.

Durkula, on the other hand, is a entity connected with a death god who seems to have an active interest in it. Presumably, with Malack being a powerful priest of a death god who's at least on the same level as Hel, Durken might have remained Durken with a vampire's needs and wants, which would pretty much akin to how the Order seems to believe he is currently. But, Hel pretty much did a hijack on that when the vampire was freed from Thralldom. A vampire dwarf would probably alway's serve Hel by default, unless clerics of Loki or somesuch approve of undeath, though.

[Sir_Leorik]

The answer is that D&D has been slightly inconsistent in this regard. In some cases the Vampire becomes instantly Evil, in others the Vampire struggles against it's Evil nature. In some cases Vampires have their original soul, albeit tainted by Negative Energy, in others they have a dark spirit (ala the High Priest of Hel) inserted into their corpse, either instead of their original soul (ala "Buffy" and "Angel") or in addition to it (ala Durkon).

If we take I, Strahd to be an authentic memoir, and not a pack of lies, then Count Strahd von Zarovich certainly doesn't seem to have a "dark spirit" inside him. He's the same person he was when he murdered his brother Sergei in order to seal his pact with "Death" and become a Vampire. If Jander Sunstar has a "dark spirit" then he's done a great job containing it for over five centuries. Erasmus van Richten may have had a "dark spirit" that he was wrestling with, or he may have been simply struggling against the control of Baron Metus. Merrillee almost certainly has a "dark spirit"; she was a child when she was sired, yet she is completely Chaotic Evil, and practically worthy of being a Darklord. It is uncertain if Kas the Bloody-Handed has a soul or not; given how powerful he is, and how Evil he was in life, Kas could still have the wretched soul he always had. Declaud Heinfroth (aka "Dr. Dominiani"), also seems like he was Evil in life, and Duke Gundar had almost no character development, so we can't really know.

Basically the only D&D Vampires whose transition we've seen are Strahd (whose memoirs, as I said earlier, may be a deliberate hoax to fool adventurers), Jander Sunstar and Erasmus van Richten. There are also interviews that Dr. Rudolph van Richten conducted with Vampires as part of his research into how to slay them, but those could also be suspect.

In terms of Durkon, we can't really know. We have only seen three Vampires in the entire run of "OotS": Malack, Durkon/HPoH and Haley's thoughts about Vampire Roy. The latter was mostly meant as a joke about "Vampire: the Masquerade"/"Vampire: the Requiem", and was only a hypothetical scenario anyway. So that leaves Malack, who didn't reveal much about his past, other than that he was a Lizardfolk Shaman in life, and the HPoH, who's existence was a major cliffhanger to end Book Five. I think we're going to have to wait and see about what's going on inside Vampire!Durkon's head.

[Ghost Nappa]

I think we're going to have to wait and see about what's going on inside Vampire!Durkon's head.

I thought there was a Dwarf in there. He looked kind of familiar too.




Gimli, maybe?

[Sir_Leorik]

I thought there was a Dwarf in there. He looked kind of familiar too.




Gimli, maybe?

No, you're thinking of Bombur.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I personally, tend toward believing that Durkon followed the normal rules, whatever those are. I think that Malak's statements can be interpreted in multiple ways, depending on what you believe to be true. Another thing is that it is difficult to see what is an exception when we have only met two vampires, and only seen the early life of one.

Perhaps Malak is the exception.

[Keltest]

I personally, tend toward believing that Durkon followed the normal rules, whatever those are. I think that Malak's statements can be interpreted in multiple ways, depending on what you believe to be true. Another thing is that it is difficult to see what is an exception when we have only met two vampires, and only seen the early life of one.

Perhaps Malak is the exception.

Im inclined to believe that Durkon followed the normal case, however the instant he was spawned, Hel came in and basically hired his demon right off the bat, before it could "merge" with Durkon's personality. So she basically gave it a purpose outside of being durkon, and gave him a separate identity to be completely loyal to her. This had the side effect of stopping him from tapping into Durkon's identity by default, and thus it takes a conscious (possibly) effort for it to do so.

[KillianHawkeye]

For all we know, different things happen when a person willingly seeks out to become a vampire compared to when they are turned into one involuntarily.

Anyway, the reason that a vampire's default alignment is Evil is because they need to drink the blood of the living on a regular basis, either killing or seriously harming their victims in the process.

[Benthesquid]

For all we know, different things happen when a person willingly seeks out to become a vampire compared to when they are turned into one involuntarily.

Anyway, the reason that a vampire's default alignment is Evil is because they need to drink the blood of the living on a regular basis, either killing or seriously harming their victims in the process.

Or, in the cosmology Rich is presenting us, because they have a spirit born in the halls of an Evil Death God rammed into their being?

[Vladier]

Im inclined to believe that Durkon followed the normal case, however the instant he was spawned, Hel came in and basically hired his demon right off the bat, before it could "merge" with Durkon's personality. So she basically gave it a purpose outside of being durkon, and gave him a separate identity to be completely loyal to her. This had the side effect of stopping him from tapping into Durkon's identity by default, and thus it takes a conscious (possibly) effort for it to do so.

Why necessarily a demon? For all we know, Hel is NE or LE, thus her servants being daemons or devils. It may actually be a Negative Energy spirit, if Hel's domain has connections to the Negative Energy Plane, which, considering that she's an Evil Death goddess and seemingly has no problem with undead, she might as well have. It may even be a soul of her actual High Priest from a cult long destroyed, reborn as her servant in her hall after his death, though that's unlikely. Still, the wording is somewhat ambiguous, especially "serendipitous" and "your dark spirit was born in my hall".

[Keltest]

Why necessarily a demon? For all we know, Hel is NE or LE, thus her servants being daemons or devils. It may actually be a Negative Energy spirit, if Hel's domain has connections to the Negative Energy Plane, which, considering that she's an Evil Death goddess and seemingly has no problem with undead, she might as well have. It may even be a soul of her actual High Priest from a cult long destroyed, reborn as her servant in her hall after his death, though that's unlikely. Still, the wording is somewhat ambiguous, especially "serendipitous" and "your dark spirit was born in my hall".

I call it a demon for lack of a better word, not because I think it is a specific kind of creature from the lower planes.

[elros]

I suspect that being a vampire puts a different spirit in charge. Malack became a vampire a long time ago, so he original spirit was held in check for so long that he probably stopped struggling. Also, Malack may have known that the new vampire spirit in Durkon could access his memories, which would be enough for them to be friends.
For me, the biggest question is if we will ever see Malack's spirit again. Maybe a reunion in the afterlife?

[factotum]

The answer is that D&D has been slightly inconsistent in this regard. In some cases the Vampire becomes instantly Evil, in others the Vampire struggles against it's Evil nature.

As with most situations where the rules aren't especially clear, this is almost certainly due to the makers of the game not wanting to limit the roleplay opportunities for the playerbase--a player character who got turned into a vampire would probably want to invent their own reasons for turning evil.

[random_guy]

Or that Malack the snake person accepted Malack the vampire's control and they merged. To use the annoying Buffy example, it would be like how William/Spike don't exhibit the animosity towards eachother that Liam/Angelus displayed. (edit- yes, I agree that this is more of a plot inconsistency on Buffy, but it helps illustrate the example)

My guess is that it's a gradual merging. At this point, less than a day after the change, Durkon's soul is still very much struggling against the vampire. Two hundred years later, it's doubtful ANY soul would still be capable of resisting control.

I think Spike's situation is different. It seems that his base personality remained and he gained vampire abilities. He actually continued to see his mother as his mother. He vamped her in order to grant her immortality. He was essentially the same person with a different outlook on life.

Angelus was different. He was a completely separate person with a separate personality. He sees Liam as a pathetic loser, and he cannot stand to possess the same body.

We don't know if it's the base personality or the new vampire personality, but Malack seems to share Spike's situation. He sees the ignorant shaman as himself, or rather someone he used to be. It's possible his personality remained unchanged after he became a vampire, so he expects the same from Durkon.

In Durkon's case, Durkula sees him as a means to an end. They are in direct conflict and Durkula's evil acts will have an impact on him in one way or another. Coping with the guilt of helplessly standing by while an evil spirit uses his powers, abilities, and knowledge to commit acts of evil might be a character growth moment for him.

[Keltest]

I think Spike's situation is different. It seems that his base personality remained and he gained vampire abilities. He actually continued to see his mother as his mother. He vamped her in order to grant her immortality. He was essentially the same person with a different outlook on life.

Angelus was different. He was a completely separate person with a separate personality. He sees Liam as a pathetic loser, and he cannot stand to possess the same body.

We don't know if it's the base personality or the new vampire personality, but Malack seems to share Spike's situation. He sees the ignorant shaman as himself, or rather someone he used to be. It's possible his personality remained unchanged after he became a vampire, so he expects the same from Durkon.

In Durkon's case, Durkula sees him as a means to an end. They are in direct conflict and Durkula's evil acts will have an impact on him in one way or another. Coping with the guilt of helplessly standing by while an evil spirit uses his powers, abilities, and knowledge to commit acts of evil might be a character growth moment for him.

Something else to point out is that Spike deliberately fought for his soul. Spike, as in the demon controlling the body.

[Loreweaver15]

Let's break this down:

1. Malack claims that resurrecting him would be a "complicated way of annihilating the person he is today". If this was a Nergal-spirit driving the lizard-shaman's corpse rather than the lizard-shaman himself, not only would that be a very simple way of annihilating him, but he wouldn't have referred to his living self as himself, or recalled his living self's brothers as if they were his own.

2. "You will feel more like yourself" so that "we may once again engage as peers", though releasing him right then "would be...confusing for you." Malack clearly expects Vampire Durkon to be Durkon with a newfound hunger for blood. As Malack is the only firsthand account of how non-Durkon vampires work, his expectation that Durkon will still be Durkon seems to me to carry a lot of weight.

I really don't see any evidence in-comic that what happened to Durkon is anything but Hel interfering with the way things normally work. Malack expects his friend, not a dark spirit pretending to be him; Malack refers to his living self as himself, not as a wholly separate entity. I may be proven wrong, but...it seems pretty clear to me.

[Heksefatter]

There are some canon examples of D&D vampires who are not evil. Jander Sunstar is a CN vampire with goodish tendencies.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Jander_Sunstar

Van Richten's Guide to Vampires from 2e gives rules as to how good vampires can originate. If someone is vamprized, but their domitor vampire is destroyed or leaves the area before they rise, the vampire can remain good, though it is unlikely.

It also says that the goodness is likely to disappear over time, due to the sinister nature of the vampiric state.

In short, vampires are not literally always evil in D&D. But exceptions are extremely rare.

[Orc Warrior]

I'm not to clear on how killing a vampire works with the whole 'stake' thing. Would someone mind explaining for me? And also, a vampire who dies under the sun has no way of returning, yes?

[MesiDoomstalker]

The stake thing is taken from the folklore. Someone with more knowledge about the folklore can be more helpful.

About burning in the sun, yes, thats a sure fire way to kill a Vampire for good, barring a spell in Libris Mortis if memory serves.

[Heksefatter]

But some, very old and powerful vampires, can actually survive the sun for a long time.

As a side note: In Bram Stoker's Dracula, vampires could be out in the sun, no problem.

[Kish]

But some, very old and powerful vampires, can actually survive the sun for a long time.

I'm unaware of any 3.xed source that indicates that older vampires can survive more than one round of sunlight.

[Heksefatter]

I'm unaware of any 3.xed source that indicates that older vampires can survive more than one round of sunlight.

So am I. I just went by the assumption that stuff like that which was canon sort of remained canon, unless otherwise noted.