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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    My point was before it got misinterpreted as sexism (you sure love throwing that word around), was that historically armies are primarily male because men make better cannon fodder and women can give birth, and even if this isn't true in D&D because gender doesn't influence stats, it's still based on the real world to some extent, as all fiction is.

    As an aside, there IS a reason most societies favor men: rule by the strongest. The strongest caveman takes what he wants, because he will beat up anyone who says different. Since men were the main fighters, when they conquered something, they would make themselves king. Seriously, women are not exactly the same as men; if they were they would be men. Accept that there are some biological differences and leave it at that. Not everything has to be a fight about political correctness and historical revision.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicalMeat View Post
    As an aside, there IS a reason most societies favor men: rule by the strongest.
    [citation needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicalMeat View Post
    The strongest caveman takes what he wants, because he will beat up anyone who says different.
    [citation needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicalMeat View Post
    Since men were the main fighters, when they conquered something, they would make themselves king.
    Those three statements are, as far as I can tell, complete fantasy. Tribal societies, such as the "cavemen" people, were not ruled by strength. Rule of "strength", i.e. militaristic, started after the agricultural revolution, and even then it was politics, i.e. the guy with the biggest army rather than the greatest warrior, that actually ruled. If you believe otherwise, please provide evidence for your position.

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicalMeat View Post
    Seriously, women are not exactly the same as men; if they were they would be men. Accept that there are some biological differences and leave it at that. Not everything has to be a fight about political correctness and historical revision.
    Seriously, there is no significant difference in military capability between men and women. Not with guns, not before guns. Most soldiers are not at the peak of human development, and thus the fact that men might eventually become stronger than women can is irrelevant when neither will get the chance to achieve such status.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicalMeat View Post
    My point was before it got misinterpreted as sexism (you sure love throwing that word around), was that historically armies are primarily male because men make better cannon fodder and women can give birth, and even if this isn't true in D&D because gender doesn't influence stats, it's still based on the real world to some extent, as all fiction is.
    Well, youre half right. Women were needed back home because men were physically unable to perform some of the more important parts of childbearing (ie getting pregnant and keeping the kid alive until it can eat solid food).
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    I've been thinking, if goblins are relatively equal and hobgoblins patriarchal, does this mean that bugbears are matriarchal?

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    NinjaGirl

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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html

    "Seventeen nations around the world have recognized our borders, stretching from here - in Gobbotopia City - through the fertile Blueriver Valley and back to the mountain forts where so many of your women and children still live." (emphasis mine)

    The hobgoblin forces are predominantly male. The women stayed back to raise the children, likely to keep the children sheltered from the same types of slaughters that the goblins often faced, a la SOD.

    We do see a hobgoblin woman here. They are sexually dimorphic and do typically have hair.

    We do see some goblin females scattered throughout the Dark One's army in the crayon shot of the goblinoid afterlife. All of the hobgoblins seem to be male, but we don't get detailed shots of too many of them. The implication is that all worshippers of the Dark One serve in this capacity, so I find it likely that they are still around in there somewhere.

    I skimmed through the Azure City occupation scenes and could not find any female hobgoblins serving in any capacity.

    We do not know exactly why the hobgoblin women are not typically found in hobbo warcamps. It can NOT be a difference in physical ability; in the first place, such differences are not in the 3.5 ruleset, but in the second place, there are a variety of classes, such as spellcasting, for which such physical differences would be irrelevant.

    In-universe, my bet is that the hobgoblins have a heavy militaristic focus for the purposes of glory-seeking and warfare, for similar reasons to those listed above, that do not offer much social prestige to female warriors, and so women will typically stay at home to raise children and take care of agriculture. Out-of-universe, my bet is that Rich copied and pasted a hobgoblin figure a zillion times, realized after the fact that he'd wound up with an entirely male hobgoblin force, slapped in a note about how the hobgoblin women stayed back at home to take care of the kids, and didn't really think about it again.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    Okay, the MM says that women stay behind to help in defense.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    NinjaGirl

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaDzilla View Post
    Okay, the MM says that women stay behind to help in defense.
    Oh, that makes sense. The militaristic hobgoblins have special warcamps set up, but women who are pregnant or nursing need to stay behind, and if there's a pattern of women staying behind anyway, that leads easily to a "women defend the homefront, men attack the new fronts" pattern. That way, if things go wrong out on the battlefields, the kids are still safe, and the soldiers have a good place to retreat to. Plus, it's easier to repopulate with a few men and many women than the other way around, if it comes to that.

    The goblins, not having separate warcamps, just have one village all together. Everyone contributes to the defense, so there's about an equal number of women and men serving in various capacities. Same goes for Azure City.

    And once in the afterlife, everyone serves in the Dark One's army, because there's no longer a homefront to worry about.

    There, a plausible explanation that requires absolutely no assumptions about any inherent combat capabilities of anyone.
    Last edited by DaggerPen; 2014-03-02 at 08:42 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalek Kommander View Post
    Heartless? Those flaming letters spelled ELAN! How many sons can honestly say their father has murdered dozens of human beings just to show how much they care?

    Tarquin's fatherly love is truly unique... or at least I hope it is!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, I'm impressed that this topic went so far off topic that it ended up back at The Order of the Stick.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    What I think most surprises me about this thread is the fact that people are treating the Hobgoblin's being sexist as though it would reflect on the Giant's attitude towards sexism. They're definitely treated more sympathetically (i.e. with any sympathy at all) than they are in most works of fiction, but they're also pretty warlike and backward. Even if it's not their fault, it's still true! So why can't hobgoblins be traditionally sexist like most armies were, for whatever reason?

    In strictly practical terms, I will avoid the discussion about relative combat readiness of men and women, because I think that the reproductive argument is much more telling (and probably the driver behind any average differences that actually exist IRL).

    In a situation as bad as the hobgoblins, constrained to survive on the worst possible land, constantly hunted by humans and adventurers, reproduction would be at an absolute premium. Having lots of children would be a serious duty for the women because it could mean the difference between having *any* children survive the famines, raids, disease and childbirth, versus having none. And only Hobgoblins who have children which survive can raise them into the next generation of Hobgoblins. And sending the women out to fight? Get real. Cutting the number of potential children down by a factor of even 0.9 is tribal suicide, especially if you're also competing with the tribe just across the river which is keeping their numbers up.

    So I think that the calculus of strict necessity is enough to justify the Hobgoblin horde being as it is.

    Edit: Ninja'd. Ah well. I stand by my statements.
    Last edited by happyman; 2014-03-02 at 08:57 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowere View Post
    So now saying that for realism women should have a str penalty in roleplaying games is sexism? There's something as too much political correctness
    Well, giving individual women characters a strength penalty is NOT realism. Because the difference is a difference in *average* strength across the entire populaton. But adventurer characters in role playing games are already by definition exceptional individuals. Giving a penalty essentially means saying that it is impossible for a female character to have the maximum strength score, but that is simply not true in reality. It may be that *fewer* women would have that maximum score, but your particular female adventurer character can easily be one of those few.


    Quote Originally Posted by MagicalMeat View Post
    The strongest caveman takes what he wants, because he will beat up anyone who says different.
    This is unlikely to be true. In fact one theory about human evolution specifically states that in our lineage, long before we even got to the "caveman" stage, one of the things that differentiated us from our ape relatives was that the strongest caveman DIDN'T get to take what he wanted. Because from the moment we developed language, we developed the ability for 3 or 4 of the weaker cavemen to conspire together to gang up on the strong guy and stab him in the back, and take back whatever he had tried to take from them by dint of his individual strength before, and that it was that change in selective pressure on aggression that resulted in many of the different traits between ourselves and say, chimpanzees, where the rule of the strongest really is a thing.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    well, it makes sense in general, since women can make babies and men only need to help them for a few minutes. if your society practices poligamy (we have no idea if the hobbos do) then if your women are safe while 90% of your men are killed on the battlefield, you still can repopulate pretty fast. while if your women are killed alongside the men, you cannot. for this reason, a militaristic society has all the interest in keeping women safe and make men expendable.

    Men being stronger than women is also a factor, and while by far not the only concern for an army, it helped a lot before gunpowder.
    If there weren't advantages to using men for war instead of women, but it were just a byproduct of society, then women should have been the warrior caste in about half the ancient society. instead, we see that practically all ancient societies, includding several who had no contact with each other, used mostly men as soldiers, with only a handful of exceptions. Not necessarily as rulers, but even in societies were women commanded, men would fight. There must be a good objective reason for that.
    Then, since men made the best warriors in ancient societies - for whatever reason - it got ingrained in culture, and that stopped women from taking a large part in the army once gunpowder nullified gender differences.
    Or maybe those ancient women were smart and realized that if men went off to fight wars or had to work in mines and factories, while they had to take care for the home and the children, they had no interest in reversing roles.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Amphiox View Post
    Well, giving individual women characters a strength penalty is NOT realism. Because the difference is a difference in *average* strength across the entire populaton. But adventurer characters in role playing games are already by definition exceptional individuals. Giving a penalty essentially means saying that it is impossible for a female character to have the maximum strength score, but that is simply not true in reality. It may be that *fewer* women would have that maximum score, but your particular female adventurer character can easily be one of those few.
    Actually, that's not true. look at the olympics result, and the stronger men athletes are physically stronger than women athletes.
    As I already said, to keep things fair one could put into the rules the other advantages women have, or they could just give them a small xp boost to say they have to compensate with skill for the lower strenght, but still, in reality, the strongest woman is weaker than the strongest men. We just choose to not care about that, and it's probably the best way. An occasional woman with a str of 18 do not break my suspension of disbelief.
    Last edited by King of Nowhere; 2014-03-02 at 09:04 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    Out-of-universe, my bet is that Rich copied and pasted a hobgoblin figure a zillion times, realized after the fact that he'd wound up with an entirely male hobgoblin force, slapped in a note about how the hobgoblin women stayed back at home to take care of the kids, and didn't really think about it again.
    It warms my heart that someone is finally beginning to understand how my creative process works.

    But also, I wanted to make sure the audience was on the Azurite's side during the battle. Giving their side gender integration was an easy shorthand way to show that they were more enlightened, socially. Further, having all the hobgoblins be identical helped de-emphasize them as individuals, which made it easier to do things like a horse ramp of dead hobgoblins. Having several different models for the Azurites (male, female, sword-and-shield, archer, halberd, etc.) made them feel more like people and less like cogs in a machine. I didn't really want the audience to weep for the hobgoblin dead, though, so I made them all interchangeable.

    I suppose it would have been equally valid to make the entire fighting force identical women rather than men, in that case, but a.) it didn't occur to me, b.) I think that would have required more explanation, and c.) it may have lead to a weird misogynist vibe when I did things like the aforementioned horse ramp, or Belkar's Sexy Shoeless God of War scene. Maybe there will be a day when we're all so gender-blind that a bloodthirsty male killer standing atop a pile of women's corpses and bellowing about his martial and sexual prowess will be seen as nothing but a warrior who has courageously defeated his worthy combat adversaries with great skill, but that day ain't today.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowere View Post
    Actually, that's not true. look at the olympics result, and the stronger men athletes are physically stronger than women athletes. As I already said, to keep things fair one could put into the rules the other advantages women have, or they could just give them a small xp boost to say they have to compensate with skill for the lower strenght, but still, in reality, the strongest woman is weaker than the strongest men. We just choose to not care about that, and it's probably the best way. An occasional woman with a str of 18 do not break my suspension of disbelief.
    The computer game Arcanum tried that. Female characters got a STR -1, CON +1 adjustment. Unfortunately, the gameplay was such that the bonus abilities for maxing out STR (which female characters could never get due to the -1 adjustment at the start) turned out to be far superior to the one for maxing out CON.

    And that would be the problem you'd always risk running into in a game situation - unforeseen aspects of game mechanics and balance, particularly once the munchkins get a hold of your game system.

    But my point is that giving a blanket modifier like this is not realistic doesn't change even if you can show that the individual strongest man is stronger than the individual strongest woman, because the top strength category is a population, not individuals. If you take that Olympic athletes are the elite of the elite, what does that translate to in game mechanics? One could easily argue that they are all STR 18 in the strength categories. And yet there is a gold, silver, and bronze medal winner. Among all the STR 18's, one is strongest of them all. But the others are still STR 18. Perhaps that one strongest one will always be a man (and we cannot say that for certain. We cannot declare that the strongest possible human in any given generation must always be a man, only that most of the time it will be a man. It is still possible that one time, one extremely rare, unusual woman will actually be the strongest person of her generation), but among that population of the top tier strength, there are bound to be a few women.

    Thus it is not realistic to give a penalty score like this based on gender.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    So true. People tend to have this weird sexist opinion at female lives are more valuable than male lives. People are far more saddened at the sight of a dead women than a man. "Women and children" first anyone? Of course this is explainable in terms of reproduction, as women are far more vital to the process, but is still sexist in our modern world where reproduction is not vital.

    I really love the Giant's explanation; excellent Doyalist explanation. From an in-universe perspective, I always assumed that the reason there were so many women in the Azurite forces was simply because they were defending, and they accepted any man, women or child able to hold a sword. The goblins didn't because they didn't need to bring their women and doom their prospects of siring another generation. And for the identical hobgoblins, they don't have hair which severely limits their range of appearances for a stick comic.

    Edit: I also would like to make it clear that I'm not advocating for limiting female characters' options in stars or character class. That would promote sexism and make gender a stats choice instead of a roleplaying one
    Last edited by MagicalMeat; 2014-03-02 at 09:51 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagicalMeat View Post
    My point was before it got misinterpreted as sexism (you sure love throwing that word around), was that historically armies are primarily male because men make better cannon fodder and women can give birth, and even if this isn't true in D&D because gender doesn't influence stats, it's still based on the real world to some extent, as all fiction is.

    As an aside, there IS a reason most societies favor men: rule by the strongest. The strongest caveman takes what he wants, because he will beat up anyone who says different. Since men were the main fighters, when they conquered something, they would make themselves king. Seriously, women are not exactly the same as men; if they were they would be men. Accept that there are some biological differences and leave it at that. Not everything has to be a fight about political correctness and historical revision.
    ... historical revision? Do you even know what it means?

    Historical revision is what happens when historians, based on documents, revisit our construction of the past and correct it to account for new evidence. It's actually a meliorative word (which is why Holocaust deniers like to call themselves "revisionists", which they are not). Historians delight in being revisionists -- it means you're doing something new, that they discovered something original.

    I'm not a revisionist on this. I don't have direct evidence, which is why I cited two historians who did.

    And nobody says "cavemen". I'm not an expert on prehistory, but all I know indicates they didn't even live in caves at all, it's just that material remains are better conserved/found there, + caves were used for "ritual" purposes. (When archeologists don't understand what's going on, they say it's ritual or religious.)

    As a historian, I think it's futile to just promote sexist fictional worlds only on the basis of "historical realism". All of history is just a reconstruction of the past in the first place, so this realism is misplaced. It's not about political correctness. There are plenty of valid reasons for having exclusively male armies of goblins, many of which have been given (EDIT: and now, we know what that was). But saying that there is no other option because "biology"? Nope. That's, you know... not a supported claim. It's just essentialism.

    Your idea of "rule by strength" is also invalidated not only by what Amphiox said, but also by taking age into account. Now, who is physically strongest? Young men in their 20s-early 30s. But in most societies, from tribal societies to city states and from modern day Western democracies to medieval feudalism, who leads? Almost always people in their forties or beyond. In some tribal societies, basically, the oldest person leads -- i.e. not the strongest. In the Middle Ages, which inspire most of the fantasy worlds we know, youth could last well into the 30s, and young people were discredited in many ways. Of course, many feudal princes inherited their functions and took office when that happened, young or not, but advisers at court or "elected" city officials did not. In Italian republics, there were strict minimum age limits for all official positions. In Venice, you had to be 30 to hold any position, and older (it varies) for the more important ones.

    Anyway. Grey Wolf and others already covered most of the other stuff you said.

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowere View Post
    Actually, that's not true. look at the olympics result, and the stronger men athletes are physically stronger than women athletes.
    As I already said, to keep things fair one could put into the rules the other advantages women have, or they could just give them a small xp boost to say they have to compensate with skill for the lower strenght, but still, in reality, the strongest woman is weaker than the strongest men. We just choose to not care about that, and it's probably the best way. An occasional woman with a str of 18 do not break my suspension of disbelief.
    It must be understood that everything exceptional that happens to fictional characters has to happen for the story to work at all. If you want to write about [instant combination of unlikely traits] a Spanish lesbian Jew converted to Protestantism who embarks in secret for America in the late 16th century, well... you've created one unlikely historical character, but you would not write her story if she wasn't exceptional.

    From a fictional point of view, your 18 STR female fighter is not an irrealistic character -- she would not be a character in the first place if she didn't have 18 STR. In any case, having 18 or more STR as a female human is not as exceptional in a D&D world than having half the magic items or WBL a lvl 10 character normally has.

    Creating compensations is useless. The only people these should apply to are standard peasants, commoners and assorted minor NPCs, who generally don't even need stats and who would do things more according to whatever society expects them to be doing that what they're actually good at.
    Last edited by Miriel; 2014-03-02 at 10:20 PM.
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    The whole caveman thing I said was really just me saying that leadership is initially awarded to whoever has the most power. And as Xykon says power is power, it doesn't matter what it is. I know that cavemen is a misnomer. I really don't feel like describing what was on my mind when I made that hyperbole, mainly because I have no idea. I had gone about 36 hours without any food besides instant ramen and a potato.

    Anyway, giving stat penalties to PCs according to sex is ridiculous. But having an NPC army that is exactly 50/50 in terms of sex is equality ridiculous, as biology and society simply don't work that way.

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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicalMeat View Post
    But having an NPC army that is exactly 50/50 in terms of sex is equality ridiculous, as biology and society simply don't work that way.
    Fictional biology and fictional society. They can work however we want them to work, according to whatever point or message or mood the author is trying to achieve.

    Positing that there is no possible combination of made-up biology and made-up society that could possibly result in female equality on the battlefield is actually way more sexist than simply saying this one society happened to not turn out that way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    I suppose it would have been equally valid to make the entire fighting force identical women rather than men, in that case, but a.) it didn't occur to me, b.) I think that would have required more explanation, and c.) it may have lead to a weird misogynist vibe when I did things like the aforementioned horse ramp, or Belkar's Sexy Shoeless God of War scene. Maybe there will be a day when we're all so gender-blind that a bloodthirsty male killer standing atop a pile of women's corpses and bellowing about his martial and sexual prowess will be seen as nothing but a warrior who has courageously defeated his worthy combat adversaries with great skill, but that day ain't today.
    As much as I advocate equal gender representation in fiction, good call. There are some messy gender politics involved with that (tvtropes link), but still, definitely the right call.

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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    I suppose it would have been equally valid to make the entire fighting force identical women rather than men, in that case, but a.) it didn't occur to me, b.) I think that would have required more explanation, and c.) it may have lead to a weird misogynist vibe when I did things like the aforementioned horse ramp, or Belkar's Sexy Shoeless God of War scene. Maybe there will be a day when we're all so gender-blind that a bloodthirsty male killer standing atop a pile of women's corpses and bellowing about his martial and sexual prowess will be seen as nothing but a warrior who has courageously defeated his worthy combat adversaries with great skill, but that day ain't today.
    Yeeeegh. I hadn't even had that occurred to me, and I've toyed with all-female fighting forces in stories before.

    That really would come off really awful, wow.
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  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    Though to be fair, Belkar doesn't exactly come across as "a warrior who has courageously defeated his worthy combat adversaries with great skill" at the best of times.
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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicalMeat View Post
    Anyway, giving stat penalties to PCs according to sex is ridiculous. But having an NPC army that is exactly 50/50 in terms of sex is equality ridiculous, as biology and society simply don't work that way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enrico Dandolo View Post
    But saying that there is no other option because "biology"? Nope. That's, you know... not a supported claim. It's just essentialism.
    +, you know... what the Giant said.
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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    I skimmed through the Azure City occupation scenes and could not find any female hobgoblins serving in any capacity.
    I happened to remember the last panel of 779 has a female hobogoblin scanning for Thanh and Niu.
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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    I happened to remember the last panel of 779 has a female hobogoblin scanning for Thanh and Niu.
    Oh, well spotted! I thought I remembered seeing one somewhere, but when I couldn't find her again I figured I must have been thinking of a female goblin instead.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalek Kommander View Post
    Heartless? Those flaming letters spelled ELAN! How many sons can honestly say their father has murdered dozens of human beings just to show how much they care?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, I'm impressed that this topic went so far off topic that it ended up back at The Order of the Stick.
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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowere View Post
    Actually, that's not true. look at the olympics result, and the stronger men athletes are physically stronger than women athletes.
    The Olympics has quite a narrow rulesfor what constitutes a woman and there are people who are not allowed to compete because their blood tests contradict their physical appearance. Since they identify as women, looks female to an observer and in all other parts of life would be treated as women it's hardly fair to rule out these exceptions when talking about exceptional people is it?

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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven View Post
    The Olympics has quite a narrow rulesfor what constitutes a woman and there are people who are not allowed to compete because their blood tests contradict their physical appearance. Since they identify as women, looks female to an observer and in all other parts of life would be treated as women it's hardly fair to rule out these exceptions when talking about exceptional people is it?
    This is actually a really interesting topic, because it shows just how much our idea of sex is actually rather artificial. There's this idea that women must have testosterone levels below a certain point in order to be eligible to compete, since higher testosterone levels typically grant higher muscle mass. So the strongest women are filtered out of the Olympics with the justification that they aren't "female" enough for the Olympics, because "real" women have testosterone levels below a certain point. When women break the records of male Olympians, they are scrutinized harshly, subjected to testing, and may be disqualified. And lo and behold, women consistently do worse than men in the Olympics. Imagine that.

    Mind you, on average, women do have lower testosterone levels than men, so on average, women have less muscle mass. This effect is particularly striking with transgender people who take hormones, as trans men will typically gain muscle mass, and trans women lose it. But pure muscle mass isn't actually as useful in combat as it's made out to be, anyway, and in feats of strength, people with higher muscle mass are going to be selected for regardless, and I'm not actually sure that there are that many more men at the peak than there are women.
    Last edited by DaggerPen; 2014-03-03 at 01:39 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalek Kommander View Post
    Heartless? Those flaming letters spelled ELAN! How many sons can honestly say their father has murdered dozens of human beings just to show how much they care?

    Tarquin's fatherly love is truly unique... or at least I hope it is!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, I'm impressed that this topic went so far off topic that it ended up back at The Order of the Stick.
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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    I happened to remember the last panel of 779 has a female hobogoblin scanning for Thanh and Niu.
    Of course, she's mainly there for the inversion joke.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Also, as a rule of thumb, if you find yourself defending your inalienable right to make someone else feel like garbage, you're on the wrong side of the argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by oppyu View Post
    There is nothing more emblematic of this forum than three or four pages of debate between people who, as it turns out, pretty much agree with each other.


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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphiox View Post
    But my point is that giving a blanket modifier like this is not realistic doesn't change even if you can show that the individual strongest man is stronger than the individual strongest woman, because the top strength category is a population, not individuals.
    Didn't somebody earlier in the thread say that 1st edition had a lower Strength cap for women as opposed to men, rather than a blanket modifier? Wouldn't that be more realistic *and* fulfil your requirements as well? (Having said that, I never quite understood why the original AD&D allowed Fighters--and *only* Fighters--to have higher strength scores than any other class, with the whole 18/00 modifier thing; so a thief or a mage aren't allowed to work out?).

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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    Or female hob's in OOTSverse are the same as the dwarves in the disk-world-verse - females and males are pretty much indistinguishable in appearance.

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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    Quote Originally Posted by Hajutze View Post
    Or female hob's in OOTSverse are the same as the dwarves in the disk-world-verse - females and males are pretty much indistinguishable in appearance.
    Weve seen at least 1 female hob whom you would immediately be able to tell apart even without the little mini-hobs she was taking care of.
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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven View Post
    The Olympics has quite a narrow rulesfor what constitutes a woman and there are people who are not allowed to compete because their blood tests contradict their physical appearance. Since they identify as women, looks female to an observer and in all other parts of life would be treated as women it's hardly fair to rule out these exceptions when talking about exceptional people is it?
    There is one test of femaleness that works for me, having babies. I don't see anyone who (in the right age range) couldn't have had babies as female. This may change with medical advances, but it's where we are now, and it seems unlikely that OotS is more advanced in that respect, though who knows what magic is limited to?
    Last edited by halfeye; 2014-03-03 at 08:12 AM.
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    Default Re: Goblin vs. Hobgoblin

    I would have been as happy with the in-universe explanation that at no point in the strips do we actually see 30,000 hobgoblins, that there may, in fact, be a whole crapton of female hobgoblins off panel filling other military roles that are not frontline shock troops, and that a military society like the hobgoblins probably requires all soldiers to shave their heads to defeat a grapply advantage for their foes, or for unit cohesion or whatever (whether or not it is an actual mechanical reason or not). It's entirely possible that among that sea of bald-headed hobbos, there are some belonging to either gender (or a potential third hobbo-specific gender, who knows, it's a fantasy setting!)

    The explanation that 'they're all at home with the kids' wasn't so bad, I suppose. Reflective of oppression, which, considering the hobgoblins are carting human slaves around the city, is pretty much par for the course. We must never forget, the hobgoblins, despite just wanting a 'place to thrive', are being led by a pretty wretched couple of dudes, and likely have generations upon generations of brutality and rule-by-strength ingrained into them.

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