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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    Apologies if this has been brought up before, but I'd like to hear current opinions on this.

    I was looking through the Beguiler details. I love the idea and all the stuff you'd be able to do, and I think the class would be great fun to play next time I make up a character - but I'm worried that it's way overpowered. Comparing a beguiler to a sorcerer:


    Areas in which the two classes are identical

    - Same spellcasting (full arcane, one level behind wizard, level 9 spells).
    - Same saves.
    - Same base attack.

    Areas in which the beguiler is better

    - Better HD (d6 instead of d4)
    - Much better skill points (6 instead of 2)
    - Much better skill list (every skill you could ever want)
    - Better casting stat (Int is better than Cha)
    - Light armour spell use (more AC)
    - More weapon proficiencies
    - Full spontaneous casting! You can spontaneously cast and choose between EVERY spell on your spell list, whenever you want, and you automatically gain access to all your spells, like a cleric or druid!
    - Various other minor goodies (trapfinding, silent and still spell, cloaked and surprise casting)

    Areas in which the sorcerer is better

    - Bigger spell list
    - Familiar


    Now the sorcerer already is a decent class (not as powerful as a wizard, but not many classes are) but it seems to me that a beguiler is so much stronger than a sorcerer it's not even funny. The only weakness a beguiler has is their limited spell list - but since they can cast so many spells, they effectively have MORE flexibility than a sorcerer. A 4th-level sorcerer knows 3 first-level spells and 1 second-level spell. A 4th-level beguiler knows 10+ first-level spells and 15+ second-level spells.

    Admittedly a Beguiler's spell list is enchantment and illusion heavy, but there are so many good spells from those schools that you're never going to be short of things to cast. And they have several of the best conjuration and transmutation spells, like mage armour, haste, and slow. And if there's one spell they really want, they can get it anyway with their Advanced Learning feature. Meanwhile, the sorcerer can pick from a bigger spell list but can only learn a tiny handful of them.

    Oh, and the sorcerer gets a familiar.

    So, am I missing something here, or is the Beguiler a much better overall class than the sorcerer? Is the class allowed in your games? If it is, and it's not too overpowered, I'm definitely playing one next chance I get.

    - Saph

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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    The Beguiler is basically the same as a Warmage, just with a slightly different focus.

    He's marginally good at his one thing and can't really branch out into anything else.
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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    You're missing the fact that the spell list the sorcerer can select his spells from is enormous compared to the Beguiler's fixed list--which is largely lacking when it comes to non-mind-affecting spells. They have a bunch of gems--haste, slow, solid fog, freedom of movement--but their spell list is lacking in versatility for anything other than a mind affecting social/skillmonkey role. This is especially noticeable with their higher level spells. Advanced Learning only gets them a few spells, and they have to be enchantment/illusion (Shadow Evocation/Conjuration are good bets).
    If you'd like, I can name you, oh, let's say, 20 first-class spells that the Beguiler will never know. Most of these will be fairly essential to being a quality arcanist.

    The Beguiler should really be compared to a rogue, rather than a true arcanist; he fills the skillmonkey role. His spells in part help him do that, and in part are equivalent to the Rogue's sneak attack--a way to make the skillmonkey functional in combat. He's not a true caster, he's a skillmonkey with some extra tricks. At high levels, mind-affecting spells lose a lot of their utility (just like sneak attack does).

    The Beguiler IS much better than a Warmage, though (at their respective roles).

    The class is a lot of fun--they're rarely short of things to do, have a lot of skills, and fill an essential party role (skill/trapmonkey) while still leaving room to branch out. It's also worth taking all the way through to 20th (although a Mindbender dip is also good). Overall, it's very well designed.
    Last edited by Bears With Lasers; 2007-02-01 at 07:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    I have played a beguiler, and I can say only one thing: Use Magic Device. Get it. It is very valuble, basically allowing you to use any scrolls that you can find. It expands the useage of the beguiler in a big way.
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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    That's pretty much true for any class that has UMD as a class skill.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers View Post
    If you'd like, I can name you, oh, let's say, 20 first-class spells that the Beguiler will never know. Most of these will be fairly essential to being a quality arcanist.
    Actually, I would like. Which spells were you thinking of, especially at lower levels? Say you're at level 10 and in a combat - you've got haste, slow, solid fog, greater invisibility, glitterdust, displacement, freedom of movement . . . I would have thought one of those would deal with the problem, whatever it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers View Post
    The class is a lot of fun--they're rarely short of things to do, have a lot of skills, and fill an essential party role (skill/trapmonkey) while still leaving room to branch out.
    They definitely look that way.

    Well, if my DM agrees with you, I'll try and play one next chance I get.

    - Saph

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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Actually, I would like. Which spells were you thinking of, especially at lower levels? Say you're at level 10 and in a combat - you've got haste, slow, solid fog, greater invisibility, glitterdust, displacement, freedom of movement . . . I would have thought one of those would deal with the problem, whatever it is.
    Core--
    Level 1: Ray of Enfeeblement, Grease, Identify, Enlarge Person, Protection from Evil, Shield
    2: Resist Energy, Web, Shatter, Scorching Ray (which is fairly nice at low-to-mid levels, despite being a damage spell), Rope Trick, Alter Self
    3: Magic Circle Against, Protection from Energy, Stinking Cloud, Wind Wall, Ray of Exhaustion, Vampiric Touch, Greater Magic Weapon, Blink, Phantom Steed
    4: Dimensional Anchor, Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Scrying, Shadow Conjuration, Enervation, Polymorph
    5: Teleport, Cloudkill, Wall of Stone, Prying Eyes, Wall of Force, Overland Flight, Telekinesis, Shadow Evocation
    6: Acid Fog, Contingency, Disintegrate, Analyze Dweomer, Repulsion, Greater Heroism
    7: Magnificent Mansion, Greater Teleport, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Finger of Death, Waves of Exhaustion, Forcecage, Limited Wish, Control Weather
    8: Prismatic Wall, Maze, Irresistible Dance, Greater Prying Eyes, Greater Shadow Evocation, Horrid Wilting, PAO
    9: Disjunction, Prismatic Sphere, Gate, Shades, Wail of the Banshee, Shapechange

    Spell Compendium and others--
    1: Benign Transposition, Serene Visage, Ray of Clumsiness, Spirit Worm, Nerveskitter
    2: Baleful Transposition, Create Magic Tattoo, Ray of Stupidity, Bladeweave (for gish), Shadow Spray, Greater Slide, Whirling Blade, Wraithstrike
    3: Anticipate Teleportation, Bands of Steel, Greater Mage Armor, Unluck, Sonorous Hum, Deeper Darkvision, Dragonskin, Steeldance
    4: Celerity (PHB II), Ray Deflection, Greater Resistance, Orb of Force, Assay Spell Resistance, Burning Blood, Voice of the Dragon
    5: Contingent Energy Resistance, Viscid Glob, Mass Fire Shield, Moonbow, Graymantle, Greater Blink, Xorn Movement
    6: Greater Anticipate Teleportation, Superior Resistance, Freezing Fog, Illusory Pit, Fleshshiver, Bite of the Weretiger, Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability
    7: Hiss of Sleep, Avasculate, Bite of the Werebear, Brilliant Aura
    8: Wrathful Castigation, Avascular Mass, Veil of Undeath
    9: Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, Eye of Power, Absorption, Reaving Dispel



    Obviously, you don't need all or even half of these to be a great arcanist. However, several of each level are pretty vital, and these are all good to best-in-class spells of their level. (I could make you a smaller list of "never skip these spells" if you'd like.) Many of them are vital utility, party buffs, enemy debuffs, keeping-yourself-safe spells, and the like. The Beguiler can only get a small handful of them, via Advanced Learning.
    At low to mid levels, yeah, the Beguiler can be very useful every fight. Probably not quite as useful as a wizard or sorcerer, but he can improvise better and do things more often. At higher levels, his ability to keep up, magic-wise, declines sharply.



    They definitely look that way.

    Well, if my DM agrees with you, I'll try and play one next chance I get.

    - Saph
    If you can, get an item of at-will Prestidigitation (it's a damn shame Beguilers don't get it as a cantrip; I have no clue why). Those are loads of fun, too.
    Last edited by Bears With Lasers; 2007-02-01 at 08:11 AM.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers View Post
    Obviously, you don't need all or even half of these to be a great arcanist. However, several of each level are pretty vital, and these are all good to best-in-class spells of their level. (I could make you a smaller list of "never skip these spells" if you'd like.)
    Actually, that would be very useful, yeah. I'm currently playing both a wizard and a sorcerer in two different campaigns, so it's something I'm interested in.

    If things change and I need a new character, I think I'll go for a Beguiler next.

    - Saph

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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    One of my PC's is a Beguiler. And let me just say that she is far more useful and interesting then the standard Rogue, who often get themselves killed trying to Sneak Attack enemies.

    I've had to throw in a greater variety of enemies. Especially enemies with tremorsense or blind sense/sight or Dispel Magic or whatnot, since the Beguiler can spontanously become Invisible. But really that's no different then having an intelligent Sorcerer in the party.

    She rocks in certain Skill encounters, is a great toolbox, and is very helpful against humanoids with low Will Saves and/or Sense Motive Skill. But she sucks against Undead/Constructs/Plants and monsters with high Will Saves. So she falls back on wands for those instances. Since limited use items can be expensive, I think its a reasonable tradeoff.

    I think the Beguiler, along with the Knight and Duskblade, should be the model of balance for other classes. Each fills one role well, without serious potential for abuse - mostly because the Beguiler and Duskblade have limited spell lists, and are therefore not subject to codex creep. I hope that when 4.0 eventually comes out, that the other classes are re-balanced to match them.

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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    Hmm. Between the comments of Bears-With-Lasers (fills one role well, magical capacity lags at high levels) and the comments of Person Man (agrees with role ful-fillment, argues that limited spell list keeps the arcane power of these classes in check) I have to wonder:

    Would it balance magic with melee as an option if one tossed out standard Wizards and Sorcerors entirely in favor of an array of superspecialist magic classes like this? If you want blasting magic, play a warmage; if you want illusions, play a Beguiler; but permitting no class that allows full-spectrum spellcasting.

    Would it be worthwhile to fill out the set of these? I suppose Clerics could be reconstructed similarly, around Domains rather than spell schools. Has this already been done?

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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers View Post
    Core--
    Spell Compendium and others--
    9: Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, Eye of Power, Absorption, Reaving Dispel
    Now that Complete Scoundrel gave us the skill trick "swift concentration", I'd add Summon Elemental Monolith to that list. I'd also add Summon (Iron) Golem (PHII) because it lasts so long and if you pick Iron you can keep healing it with fireballs (or scorching ray).

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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    One of the best things about beguilers is that they have a truly desirable capstone ability at level 20 (being able to circumvent SR). I would like to see WoTC do this with their other classes. Give people a reason to take a class to 20.

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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    I've been statting out a 6th level character who's a Rogue 5/Chameleon 1. I was thinking of trading out a few of his Rogue levels for Beguiler, but I've never played one before and am not sure how the class functions.... what do ya'll think?

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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    A beguiler gets real good if you are a gnome, and do shadowcraft mage. Effectively adding all the conjuration and evocation spells to your list spontaneously. You don't get the teleport spells though, but the short distance ones can be simulated via maneuvers which you get from the TOB items that grant maneuvers.

    He isn't a full wizard, he is still a hybrid a jack of all trades, he is just now very good at conjuration, evocation, illusion, enchantment, while still being spontaneous and having 6 skill points per lvl.
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2007-02-01 at 01:03 PM.
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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    I played a beguiler once. At low levels they can be pretty good through spamming save or dies (sleep and color spray) but it's nothing a wizard or sorcerer couldn't do while having other viable options that the beguiler doesn't. I'd say that it's a very fun, well designed, and well balanced class.
    Last edited by Druid; 2007-02-01 at 01:12 PM.
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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    I was thinking of a Changeling Beguiler. It's one of the few splat core classes that I actually like (Warlock, Knight and Healer being the others).

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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    Actually, Beguiler is one that would seem to work really well in pretty much any specialist build for Ultimate Magus... just forbid Enchantment and Illusion.
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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    I am currently playing a changeling Beguiler in a new campaign and I don't think it is overpowered at all. Sure, he is unbeatable at what he does well (enchantments and illusions) but he is very limited. My character is essentially incapable of dealing direct damage so I have to rely on other party members to knock down anything I can't enchant. While the advance learning skill does allow a Beguiler to learn a few spells not on his spell list, they must be of the enchantment or illusion school, so you are still limited to a few spells.

    I think it is a very fun and balanced class with lots of flavor and role playing potential.


    edit: spelling
    Last edited by Galathir; 2007-02-01 at 01:57 PM.
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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    What book is this in? I'm wishing I had it when I started the campaign I'm in, but my DM doesn't allow non-core base classes anyway.

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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    Beguiler is in PHB2
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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    I was just referring to beguiler. I have the others. :)

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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    I was just referring to beguiler. I have the others. :)
    I can't read minds so I was being over helpful ;)
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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    What book is this in? I'm wishing I had it when I started the campaign I'm in, but my DM doesn't allow non-core base classes anyway.
    Beguiler is in the PHBII
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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    I think it's more that sorcerer's are screwed.

    Begiler seems fine, but compare sorc to any prepared or spontaneous caster and he comes up short. Just the way it is.

    Oh no Your Sorc Might be able to cast an extra high level spell of a certain level, hot damn, quick we better can all the class abilities we had planned and just leave it at that.

    I think Sorcs need expanded HD and Skills ( So that they fit between wizard and bard as apposed to being a sucky wizard )

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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    All of the Beguiler's offencive capabilities are neutralised by Protection from Evil and similar spells. That being a level 1 spell, I can see why beguilers are not very useful in combat. Here's a list of creatures beguilers are useless against in combat:

    Undead
    Constructs
    Plants
    Vermin
    Swarms
    Oozes
    High CR Outsiders (most of them either have protective aura or at will protection from alignment SLAs)

    That's almost half the creatures in the DMG, closer to three quarters in any monster campaign. And that's not including creatures with spellcasting abilities that can cast protection from alignment.


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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos7 View Post
    I think it's more that sorcerer's are screwed.

    Begiler seems fine, but compare sorc to any prepared or spontaneous caster and he comes up short. Just the way it is.

    Oh no Your Sorc Might be able to cast an extra high level spell of a certain level, hot damn, quick we better can all the class abilities we had planned and just leave it at that.

    I think Sorcs need expanded HD and Skills ( So that they fit between wizard and bard as apposed to being a sucky wizard )

    Logos
    Sorcerers are also able to choose there spells while remaining spontaneous. No other spontaneous class has polymorph for example, lets combine it with wraithstrike and go into a form with alot of natural attacks. Lets take power attack for good measure.

    Your are right most of the time the beguiler is better, but I can think of some spell combos that a sorcerer can do but a beguiler can never do. The only other class that comes close to doing that is the wizard, but then he is no longer spontaneous.
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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos7 View Post
    I think it's more that sorcerer's are screwed.

    Begiler seems fine, but compare sorc to any prepared or spontaneous caster and he comes up short. Just the way it is.

    Oh no Your Sorc Might be able to cast an extra high level spell of a certain level, hot damn, quick we better can all the class abilities we had planned and just leave it at that.

    I think Sorcs need expanded HD and Skills ( So that they fit between wizard and bard as apposed to being a sucky wizard )

    Logos
    You just have to plan very carefully with a sorceror.

    I'm playing a non-optimal build, but I'm still the most effective character in my party. The character is built for Roleplay/background concerns, as opposed to mechanics. She's a human Bard (2), Sorceror (6), Heartwarder (4) (Forgotten Realms - Faiths & Pantheons) at present. Heartwarder is improving the Sorceror casting, not bard, so her sorceror caster level is 11.

    She's got Practiced Spellcasting, Energy Substitution [Fire], Bloodline of Fire, and some major enchantment bonuses/focus from her PrC. Her Charisma is 24 (+equipment), her caster level is 16 for fire spells (18 for caster level checks), 14 for other spells (16 for caster level checks). In a party with a cleric, paladin, Ranger/Fighter, Monk, & Rogue. She's able to outdamage most of them in any given situation as well as buff them to do more damage themselves (or avoid damage.) She's also got an armor class as good as her martial companions, and saving throws that look like a monk's.

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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    All of the Beguiler's offencive capabilities are neutralised by Protection from Evil and similar spells. That being a level 1 spell, I can see why beguilers are not very useful in combat. Here's a list of creatures beguilers are useless against in combat:

    Undead
    Constructs
    Plants
    Vermin
    Swarms
    Oozes
    High CR Outsiders (most of them either have protective aura or at will protection from alignment SLAs)

    That's almost half the creatures in the DMG, closer to three quarters in any monster campaign. And that's not including creatures with spellcasting abilities that can cast protection from alignment.
    Well, it's preety normal for class to have weaknesses. Not everyone is The Batman. Plus, Beguiler still has spells that affects such creatures. And what DM uses oozes anyway?
    Personally, I have a feeling that Beguilers are overpowered compared to Rogues... but that's just a feeling, I don't have any experience with that.
    Last edited by Morty; 2007-02-01 at 02:37 PM.
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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by M0rt View Post
    Well, it's preety normal for class to have weaknesses. Not everyone is The Batman. Plus, Beguiler still has spells that affects such creatures. And what DM uses oozes anyway?
    Personally, I have a feeling that Beguilers are overpowered compared to Rogues... but that's just a feeling, I don't have any experience with that.
    That's because rogues are underpowered. And yeah a beguiler can be usefull vs undeads and the like buffing his party members his haste for example.

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  30. - Top - End - #30
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    Default Re: Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    All of the Beguiler's offencive capabilities are neutralised by Protection from Evil and similar spells.
    That's a common misconception. Protection spells really only protect you from Charm, Dominate, and maybe a couple other spells. It doesn't render you immune to the entire Enchantment school of magic, just things that give the caster "ongoing control" over you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    Mewtarthio, you have scared my brain into hiding, a trembling, broken shadow of a thing, cowering somewhere in the soothing darkness and singing nursery rhymes in the hope of obscuring the Lovecraftian facts you so boldly brought into daylight.

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