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    Default The Nihilist: Base Class.

    There is no other world. Nor even this one. What, then, is there? The inner smile provoked in us by the patent nonexistence of both.

    The Nihilist was a class made for a competition - unfortunately one which is yet to reach this forum - and I thought I might share it with you. To provide some context, the competition consisted of choosing three numbers from 1 to 10, representing difficulty level, and being assigned three tasks that your class must complete of the appropriate difficulty. I went for 6, 8 and 10, and got:

    6: Make a True Neutral Paladin-equivalent which I'd actually want to play.
    8: Create a class with no spells, and based around the idea of nothing.
    10: Create a class that legitimately uses the concept of "AC: No," "Attack +Yes," "Fort Yes" and so forth.

    For those interested, the contest was scored out of 30 for each of difficulty, flavour, balance, functionality and simplicity, each being the total of the 3 judges' opinions out of 10 (except difficulty, which was the combined difficulty of any criteria that the class completed successfully). The class ended up scoring 24 (6, 8, 10), 27 (8, 9, 10), 20 (5, 7, 8), 21 (7, 7, 7), and 19 (4, 7 and 8) for a grand total of 111/150, putting it in third place of eight contestants. Not bad, I guess... <.< >.>

    Anyway, here it is, in all its glory, unless I've forgotten to copy something...

    The Nihilist
    Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
    1st +1 +2 +0 +2 No Aura, Detect Extremist, Smite Extremist 1/day
    2nd +2 +3 +0 +3 No Name, Weightlessness, Reject Wounds
    3rd +3 +3 +1 +3 No fear, No Blood, No Pain
    4th +4 +4 +1 +4 Null Stance, No Accuracy 1/day
    5th +5 +4 +1 +4 No Escape 1/day, Smite Extremist 2/day
    6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +5 No Failure 1/day
    7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +5 No Respite
    8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +6 No Accuracy 2/day
    9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +6 No Escape 2/day
    10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +7 Smite Extremist 3/day
    11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +7 No Mind, No Limit
    12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +8 No Failure 2/day, No Accuracy 3/day
    13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +8 No Light, No Sound, No Escape 3/day
    14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +9 No Skill
    15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +9 Smite Extremist 4/day
    16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +10 No Accuracy 4/day
    17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 No Feeling, No Escape 4/day
    18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 No Failure 3/day, No Limit
    19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 No Body.
    20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Nothing Left, No Accuracy 5/day, Smite Extremist 5/day
    {This is 3.5 material, and does not exist in Pathfinder.}
    [This is Pathfinder material, and does not exist in 3.5.]
    Alignment: True Neutral or no alignment (See "No Aura")
    Hit Die: 1d8

    Class Skills:
    The Nihilist’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are {Concentration (Con)}, Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).
    {Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4}
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

    Weapon and Armour Proficiency: Unlike Paladins, Nihilists do not train with armour, as it swiftly becomes more of a hindrance than a help. However, they are proficient with all weapons, unless the specific weapon has a requirement that the Nihilist does not meet (Such as a Bastard Sword requiring 13 strength). Upon meeting such a prerequisite, the Nihilist gains proficiency with the weapon automatically.

    No aura (Ex): The Nihilist, along with any items in the Nihilist's possession, have no aura, even if they normally would. They are also all considered to be constantly subject to an Undetectable Alignment spell (Caster Level = the Nihilist's class levels).

    Further, the Nihilist is no longer considered to have an alignment, until such a time as the Nihilist does an act that would cause such an alignment change to take effect. The Nihilist is unaffected by any spell, item or ability which depends on the target's alignment, even if the Nihilist would be affected anyway (so Holy Word has no effect, even though the Nihilist is a nongood creature).

    Detect Extremist (Sp): As the Paladin's Detect Evil ability, save that it detects Lawful Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil creatures, called Extremists. During the second and third rounds, the Nihilist determines the number of auras of any type possessed by Extremists, and during the third round the Nihilist determines not only the power and location of such auras but also to which alignment each aura pertains.

    Smite Extremist (Su): The Nihilist may Smite Extremists in the same way a Paladin Smites Evil, meaning that the bonuses to attack and damage apply against all creatures who are in no way neutral.

    No Name (Ex): From second level, the universe no longer considers the Nihilist to exist. The Nihilist is immune to any divination (Scrying) spells, and lacks a personal true name, meaning that utterances cannot incorporate such a name and the Nihilist is immune to the effects of the Unname and Ritual of Renaming spells.

    Weightlessness (Ex): From second level, the Nihilist no longer has a noticeable weight. While unarmoured and not wielding a shield, the Nihilist is not considered to have a {Balance, Jump or Tumble bonus.} [Acrobatics bonus.] Instead, when making such a check, including taking 10 or taking 20 or even making an opposed roll, the Nihilist is always considered to have succeeded the check. If making a check with a DC more than 10, plus four times the Nihilist's level, the Nihilist must make the check normally.

    In addition, the Nihilist does not fall, and may make Swim checks to move while airborne. Alternatively, the Nihilist may move around by self-propulsion through throwing an object, always moving in the opposite direction until a barrier prevents the Nihilist from moving further. The maximum distance that the Nihilist can jump in a single round is determined normally.

    Reject Wounds (Su): The Nihilist can make such things as wounds cease to exist. This functions as the Paladin's Lay On Hands ability, save that as it is not positive energy-based it still heals undead instead of harming them.

    No Fear (Ex): From Third level, the Nihilist no longer has any fear, and is immune to all fear-based effects.

    No Blood (Ex): From third level, the Nihilist has no blood, thus becoming to such spells as Transmute Blood To Acid. Further, the Nihilist is also immune to poison and disease, even those which do not require blood to function, and no longer needs to breathe, eat or drink - due to the Nihilist's weightlessness, no energy is required to function.

    No Pain (Ex): From third level, the Nihilist is immune to all effects that require pain to function, as well as the Dazzled, Disabled, Dying, Exhausted, Fatigued, Nauseated, Paralysed, Sickened, Staggered, Stunned, Turned and Unconscious conditions.

    Null Stance (Ex): From fourth level, the Nihilist gains the ability to enter powerful Null Stances, causing the Nihilist to lose a particular statistic. However, the Nihilist can only be in one Null Stance at once.

    No Accuracy (Ex): Once per day at fourth level, and every fourth level thereafter, the Nihilist may, as a free action, enter a Null Stance in which the Nihilist has no AC, including Touch AC, Flat-footed AC and Flat-Footed Touch AC. During this time, all attacks directed at the Nihilist that need to roll to hit miss automatically, and it is impossible to confirm a critical hit against the Nihilist even if an attack hits automatically. This state lasts one minute, plus one round per Nihilist level.

    No Escape (Ex): Once per day at fifth level, and every fourth level thereafter, the Nihilist may, as a free action, enter a Null Stance in which the Nihilist has no attack bonus. The Nihilist is always considered to hit, but needs to roll to see whether or not a critical is threatened. If so, it is automatically confirmed. This state lasts for one minute, plus one round per Nihilist level.

    No Failure (Ex): Once per day per six levels, the Nihilist may, as an immediate action, enter a Null Stance in which the Nihilist has no save bonus to a particular save. Instead, the Nihilist always passes any and all saving throws of that type. The Nihilist can still forego a saving throw whenever it would normally be possible to do so. This state lasts for one minute, plus one round per Nihilist level.

    No respite (Ex): From seventh level onwards, the nihilist need not sleep. Any ability which requires rest must instead follow eight hours' quiet contemplation or meditation, during which time the Nihilist may only take free actions and may not move more than 30 feet from the Nihilist's starting location but is otherwise fully aware, or the Nihilist may choose to sleep as normal, regaining hit points in so doing.

    No Mind (Ex): From eleventh level, the Nihilist's mind is a partial nonentity. The Nihilist is immune to mind-affecting abilities unless they are beneficial to the Nihilist. Further, the Nihilist chooses a single ability score from Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma. For multiple purposes, that ability score ceases to be. The Nihilist always succeeds skill checks, so long as the skill DC is no more than 20 + the Nihilist's class levels (though the skill must still be trained, if needed), ability checks and saves pertaining to that ability score, and always ignores drain or damage to that ability score. Some skill checks, such as Profession, must be rolled for normally.

    However, the lack of an intelligence does not cause infinite skill points - the Nihilist's real intelligence is used here. Similarly, Nihilist abilities calling for the Nihilist's Charisma modifier use the real value. In some sense, the ability score still exists, yet rolls which require it in some direct sense succeed automatically.

    The Nihilist may switch which ability is affected by spending a single minute meditating. While meditating, the Nihilist can take no actions, and provokes attacks of opportunity once per round on the Nihilist's turn.

    No limit (Ex): At 11th level, the Nihilist can enter a second Null Stance, and at 18th level, a third.

    No Light, No Sound (Ex): From 13th level, as more and more of the Nihilist ceases to be, no light is reflected nor sound produced by the Nihilist most of the time. The Nihilist may become invisible and inaudible as a free action for up to a number of rounds equal to the Nihilist's class levels, but must then wait one minute before doing so again. See Invisibility won't reveal the Nihilist, who is after all not invisible in the conventional sense so much as transparent, but True Seeing will do so as normal.

    No Skill (Ex): From 14th level, the Nihilist may momentarily enter a state of having no bonus to a skill, instead passing a single skill check automatically, so long is the DC is no more than 20 plus the Nihilist's level. The Nihilist cannot use this ability on opposed skill checks, and some skills, such as Profession, are ineligible to be used with No Skill - generally, if the skill has an unlimited, measurable degree of success dependent on the skill result, it cannot be used with No Skill. Further, the skill in question takes twice as long to complete - jumping 30 feet would take two move actions, while convincing an unfriendly NPC to become friendly would take 20 full-round actions instead of ten.

    No Feeling (Ex): From 17th level, the Nihilist's body does not produce heat naturally, nor does it produce smells, nor can it be felt in any way. If a creature tries to move into the Nihilist's square while the Nihilist is invisible, the Nihilist may allow the creature to push the Nihilist away five feet in a random unblocked direction perpendicular to the creature's path (usually left, right and up), or allow the creature to drag the Nihilist forwards with them, otherwise the creature notices its sudden inability to move any further due to a Nihilist blocking its way, and the usual effect of walking into an invisible creature takes place.

    No Body (Ex): From nineteenth level, the Nihilist's body becomes partially non-existent, and one of the Nihilist's physical ability scores ceases to be. This works exactly like the non-existent ability score from No Mind feature, save that it must instead be Strength, Dexterity or Constitution.

    In addition, the Nihilist may become incorporeal as a free action for up to one minute per class level at will, but must remain corporeal for at least as long thereafter. If the Nihilist is in a solid object when the duration ends (or the Nihilist loses the class feature for some reason), the Nihilist is shunted into the nearest available space, otherwise the Nihilist may not end

    Nothing Left (Ex): From twentieth level, the Nihilist may, as a free action, transcend existence entirely, becoming immune to everything but unable to affect the real world in any way. The Nihilist may travel to any location anywhere as a free action while in this state, though the Nihilist may only do so once per minute. The Nihilist ceases to age while in this state, and not even a deity can affect the Nihilist. For all intents and purposes save the Nihilist's own, the Nihilist has ceased to be.

    Code of Conduct: The Nihilist must be true neutral or have no alignment (the Nihilist's alignment is lost at first level) and loses all class abilities if the Nihilist ever commits an act with the deliberate intention that it be lawful, chaotic, good or evil - merely performing such an act is not enough for the Nihilist to fall, the action must specifically be done out of respect for the law, to break down the law, for the purposes of good, to spread an evil god's rule, and so forth. Further, the Nihilist may never worship a deity.

    Nihilists must also take care not to devote themselves to another path. A Nihilist who takes more levels in any one other class than Nihilist is considered to have broken the code of conduct. If using the Gestalt rules, this works as normal, meaning that a Nihilist who takes an single class on one side of the gestalt must take only Nihilist levels on the other.

    Ex-Nihilists: A Nihilist who is of an alignment other than true neutral, or in any other way breaks the code of conduct loses all Nihilist abilities except for weapon proficiencies, and may not advance any further in Nihilist levels. A Nihilist wishing to rectify this must spend a week contemplating the concept of nothing to regain these features. If the problem pertains to multiclassing, the Nihilist must then take the next possible level in Nihilist (and any more needed to rectify the problem) to regain lost class features.
    Last edited by Jormengand; 2014-05-03 at 03:18 PM.

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    Default Re: The Nihilist: 3.P Base Class.

    I like it a lot! However (I am not experienced enough in anyway to judge if a class is broken) are the immunities that the Nihilist gains starting a bit low? it seems odd that one is gaining immunites to True Naming at 2nd level. But I a willing to admit ignorance.

    An interesting idea: Would it be a good idea to make all divine classes (paladins' clerics, etc.) have a Nihlist as a Favoured enemy for free, since they are somewhat anti-divine?

    I wonder if my DM would let me play this class?

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    Default Re: The Nihilist: 3.P Base Class.

    This has some delicious ideas. However, invincibility for one minute per level is crazy. Those abilities would still be powerful if they lasted for a single round.

    Also, "always succeeds skill checks" makes no sense. Some skills - Jump being the most obvious - offer graduated results based on your result. A slightly more reasonable wording would be "always succeeds on opposed checks".
    Last edited by Vadskye; 2014-03-08 at 01:52 AM.

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    Default Re: The Nihilist: 3.P Base Class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mith View Post
    I like it a lot! However (I am not experienced enough in anyway to judge if a class is broken) are the immunities that the Nihilist gains starting a bit low? it seems odd that one is gaining immunites to True Naming at 2nd level. But I a willing to admit ignorance.

    An interesting idea: Would it be a good idea to make all divine classes (paladins' clerics, etc.) have a Nihlist as a Favoured enemy for free, since they are somewhat anti-divine?

    I wonder if my DM would let me play this class?
    You don't gain immunity to truenaming, you just have no personal true name so truenamers can't research it to make their save DCs higher.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadskye View Post
    This has some delicious ideas. However, invincibility for one minute per level is crazy. Those abilities would still be powerful if they lasted for a single round.

    Also, "always succeeds skill checks" makes no sense. Some skills - Jump being the most obvious - offer graduated results based on your result. A slightly more reasonable wording would be "always succeeds on opposed checks".
    You're not invincible, if you're referring to No Accuracy - you can still be tripped, you can be grappled, pinned, tied and CdG'd (because CdGs don't care what your AC is), thrown off a cliff or honest-to-god Burning Hands'd. You're not immune to splash damage, you're not immune to being burned by normal fire or magical fire or alchemist's fire, or having the whole building dropped on your head ( "That's how I use my intelligence score in combat, dumbass!" ). You're immune to normal, I-hit-it-with-my-axe attacks.

    No Mind contains the line:
    "Some skill checks, such as Profession, must be rolled for normally."

    No Skill contains the line:
    "...and some skills, such as Profession, are ineligible to be used with No Skill - generally, if the skill has an unlimited, measurable degree of success dependent on the skill result, it cannot be used with No Skill.

    Weightlessness uses Jump in this manner, but that's all right because you have to choose what DC to make the check at depending on the distance you wish to jump, so automatically succeeding a jump check does, in fact, make sense.

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    Default Re: The Nihilist: 3.P Base Class.

    Couldn't you just decide you want to jump 10 million feet and automatically make the check, though? No Skill needs a limit on the amount the DC can be, based on level, or, at the very least, disallow epic usage of skills before HD 21+.

    I like the idea for the class a lot but I think a lot of the concepts you use need to be narrowed in scope in order to not be too powerful. Most of the abilities are both usable too infrequently and last too long. Things like No Accuracy should be 1/encounter, or 1/day with a few bonuses to usage as the nihilist gets to higher levels, and last 1 round/2-3 nihilist levels.
    Last edited by Vaynor; 2014-03-08 at 06:20 AM.
    “Sometimes, immersed in his books, there would come to him
    the awareness of all that he did not know, of all that he had not read;
    and the serenity for which he labored was shattered as he realized the
    little time he had in life to read so much, to learn what he had to know.”
    ~Stoner, John Williams~
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    Default Re: The Nihilist: 3.P Base Class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaynor View Post
    Couldn't you just decide you want to jump 10 million feet and automatically make the check, though? No Skill needs a limit on the amount the DC can be, based on level, or, at the very least, disallow epic usage of skills before HD 21+.
    You could jump a million feet, but it would take you 16666 rounds to do so, so I'm not overly concerned by that. You make a good point about epic skills, though.

    I like the idea for the class a lot but I think a lot of the concepts you use need to be narrowed in scope in order to not be too powerful. Most of the abilities are both usable too infrequently and last too long. Things like No Accuracy should be 1/encounter, or 1/day with a few bonuses to usage as the nihilist gets to higher levels, and last 1 round/2-3 nihilist levels.
    That's probably true, actually, but I don't really like the idea either of the Nihilist spamming all available buffs at the beginning of each encounter because they're usable per encounter, nor do I like the idea of the Nihilist running out because the entire class feature list lasts for about 4 rounds. What do?

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    Default Re: The Nihilist: 3.P Base Class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    You could jump a million feet, but it would take you 16666 rounds to do so, so I'm not overly concerned by that. You make a good point about epic skills, though.
    It would allow them to jump across any distance though. That's not a good idea. How does No Skill work for opposed checks? It's not clear. This ability also allows them to cast any epic spell in the game with no issues (once they attain 9th-level spellcasting that is). Even if they have no natural ability to cast spells, any epic level spell at even as low (high) as level 40 would be massively overpowered.

    That's probably true, actually, but I don't really like the idea either of the Nihilist spamming all available buffs at the beginning of each encounter because they're usable per encounter, nor do I like the idea of the Nihilist running out because the entire class feature list lasts for about 4 rounds. What do?
    Make them only able to "null" one thing at a time. Maybe give them more nulls at higher levels. Make it a swift action to null, not a free action. You've made them spammable even if they're only 1/day. As it is, you can activate EVERYTHING at once and become massively overpowered and defeat obstacles way above your ECL.
    “Sometimes, immersed in his books, there would come to him
    the awareness of all that he did not know, of all that he had not read;
    and the serenity for which he labored was shattered as he realized the
    little time he had in life to read so much, to learn what he had to know.”
    ~Stoner, John Williams~
    My Homebrew (Most Recent) | Forum Rules
    /veɪnoɚ/

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    Default Re: The Nihilist: 3.P Base Class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaynor View Post
    It would allow them to jump across any distance though. That's not a good idea. How does No Skill work for opposed checks? It's not clear. This ability also allows them to cast any epic spell in the game with no issues (once they attain 9th-level spellcasting that is). Even if they have no natural ability to cast spells, any epic level spell at even as low (high) as level 40 would be massively overpowered.
    Hrrm. Good points.


    Make them only able to "null" one thing at a time. Maybe give them more nulls at higher levels. Make it a swift action to null, not a free action. You've made them spammable even if they're only 1/day. As it is, you can activate EVERYTHING at once and become massively overpowered and defeat obstacles way above your ECL.
    Hrrm. More good points.

    Dammit, off to make edits. You and your correctness and your fixes! You hoopy frood, you!

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    Default Re: The Nihilist: 3.P Base Class.

    In general, minute durations on these abilities just makes them awkward to use. You need to put a limit on the No Skill usage, but making it too restrictive will make it useless unless you can use it more often (which might make it too good). It's a hard skill to balance. I'd suggest doing something like this: at level 14, the nihilist can succeed on any skill that is unopposed and does not give a graduated level of success based on the result of the roll up to a DC or 30. At level 19-20ish, this increases to 40 or so. There's no per minute limit to this, but any skill check done in this manner takes twice as long to complete. So, for example, with Jumping, the character could automatically succeed on a Jump check if it's 30 feet or less with no roll needed. But, assuming a base speed of 30, that jump takes two movement actions. A nihilist automatically succeeds on a Diplomacy check to make an Unfriendly NPC Friendly towards them, but it takes 20 consecutive full-round actions instead of the normal 10. A nihilist can automatically translate intricate, exotic, or very old writing, but it takes 2 minutes.

    Same goes for things like No Accuracy. Great, it lasts multiple minutes, but who cares? Encounters don't last that long. Not even close. By level 16, the nihilist can fairly reliably have this ability active for the entire duration of every encounter he participates in. Not ok. He gets 16x4 minutes of infinite AC per day. One potential fix is to make this ability have a pool of 1 minute/level/day. So, instead, at 16, you have 16 total minutes per day that can be split up over the course of the day. Swift action to activate, free action to dismiss. I think this still might be too powerful.

    No Failure is so broken it's ridiculous. One minute/level of making EVERY save!? This should be an immediate action to automatically succeed on one save once per day per six levels. Let's compare this to a similar ability, Zealous Surge from the Crusader. They get the ability, at third level, to reroll one save. Once per day.

    Basically, cut durations down to rounds, not minutes (if not single uses in some cases) and make everything, at the very least, a swift or immediate action.
    Last edited by Vaynor; 2014-03-08 at 07:00 AM.
    “Sometimes, immersed in his books, there would come to him
    the awareness of all that he did not know, of all that he had not read;
    and the serenity for which he labored was shattered as he realized the
    little time he had in life to read so much, to learn what he had to know.”
    ~Stoner, John Williams~
    My Homebrew (Most Recent) | Forum Rules
    /veɪnoɚ/

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    Default Re: The Nihilist: 3.P Base Class.

    Well...

    I've made it so that you can only be in one of the now-called Null Stances at once, until 11th when you can use a second and 18th when you can use a third. They all last 1 minute + 1 round/level, meaning they're still probably lasting you for an encounter but won't allow you to do the whole dungeon in a single use. No Failure only lets you screw with a single save, so you can't auto-pass all saves unless you're nineteenth level and willing to sink two of your best class features into it, and the maximum skill DC you can auto-pass is 20+level.

    The Nihilist's main balancing point remains that it can't really do much - sure, you can pass skill checks and hit things with a stick, but you can't really do much damage with a stick, and you can't cast spells, and don't you dare take a three-level dip or you'll be condemned to three-level dips for the rest of your life (Incarnate 2 fighter 2 marshal 3 nihilist 3 sorcerer 3 anyone?). Hoping that will

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