D&D goblin lore?

[commander panda]

ok, so this has been bothering me for a while, and the title pretty much says it all. is there any definitive lore in D&D concerning the origins of goblins, similar to the kobold's relation to dragons? if so, a summery, or somewhere i could find a writeup would be hugely appreciated.

if there is any difference in lore edition-to-edition, 3.5 is preferred.

[Blightedmarsh]

aren't they supposed to be a slave race bred by hobgoblins

[commander panda]

i probably should have clarified, i meant goblinoids in general. not just standard goblins.

[BWR]

Mystara has its own take: ages ago beastmen came to the world, reincarnated souls of evildoers sent back to the world to atone for their crimes. Over the milennia they evolved into goblins and orcs (and hobgoblins and bugbears, presumebly, though they aren't listed). They congregated in the Broken Lands, a hostile place full of a weird disease that slowly kills most other beings and is a harsh, barren land. Yet the humanoids have carved out their own little nations there. Gnolls, trolls and ogres joined them later. Orcs and goblins have an increasing amount of elf blood in them. The Shadow Elves live beneath the Broken Lands and often give birth to deformed children due to the magical radiation in the area. Their doctrines of racial purity (which sound a lot worse than they actually are) mean all deformed children must be disposed of. Not wanting to kill children, they abandon them near orcish settlements. Orcs refuse to allow any child die so take in these malformed beings, which look far more orcish than they do elfin. These adopted elves often become casters for the and breed with the orcs. So half-orcs aren't really a thing in Mystara, goblins are far more mutable with a wide range of animalistic appearances, are related to orcs and slowly being bred to something a bit more elfin by the Shadow Elves.

Other than that they are fairly common in appearance and behavior. Crude, cruel, resentful of and hated by other races.

I really recommend "The Orcs of Thar", the Known World Gazetteer where all this info may be found. At once a humerous and serious look at humanoids and their culture and history.

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I'd highly suggest also asking dnd lore questions to our resident planar expert Afroakuma. His knowledge of dnd lore is staggering.

[commander panda]

Mystara has its own take: ages ago beastmen came to the world, reincarnated souls of evildoers sent back to the world to atone for their crimes. Over the milennia they evolved into goblins and orcs (and hobgoblins and bugbears, presumebly, though they aren't listed). They congregated in the Broken Lands, a hostile place full of a weird disease that slowly kills most other beings and is a harsh, barren land. Yet the humanoids have carved out their own little nations there. Gnolls, trolls and ogres joined them later. Orcs and goblins have an increasing amount of elf blood in them. The Shadow Elves live beneath the Broken Lands and often give birth to deformed children due to the magical radiation in the area. Their doctrines of racial purity (which sound a lot worse than they actually are) mean all deformed children must be disposed of. Not wanting to kill children, they abandon them near orcish settlements. Orcs refuse to allow any child die so take in these malformed beings, which look far more orcish than they do elfin. These adopted elves often become casters for the and breed with the orcs. So half-orcs aren't really a thing in Mystara, goblins are far more mutable with a wide range of animalistic appearances, are related to orcs and slowly being bred to something a bit more elfin by the Shadow Elves.

Other than that they are fairly common in appearance and behavior. Crude, cruel, resentful of and hated by other races.

this is all really helpful. thank you.

I'd highly suggest also asking dnd lore questions to our resident planar expert Afroakuma. His knowledge of dnd lore is staggering.

thank you, i just posted there. y'know, i had actually run across him before, and completely forgot about it.

[Morty]

If you want some goblinoid lore in D&D, look in the Eberron setting. It's the only D&D world that treats them as anything other than conveniently evil XP fodder. In all other D&D material, the description of goblins, hobgoblins and such comes down to "look how evil, stupid and horrible they are".

[SiuiS]

ok, so this has been bothering me for a while, and the title pretty much says it all. is there any definitive lore in D&D concerning the origins of goblins, similar to the kobold's relation to dragons? if so, a summery, or somewhere i could find a writeup would be hugely appreciated.

if there is any difference in lore edition-to-edition, 3.5 is preferred.

It's important to remember, this stuff is mutable. The whole "kobolds are dragon creatures" thing? That's not a given. It's not a guarantee. It may not even be right, despite being in the books most recently. Before they were dragons, kobolds were supernatural dungeon janitors, maggots of the lower world.

[BWR]

Not to mention that they were dog-like, not reptilian.

[SiuiS]

Still my favorite version, honestly.

[Yora]

I would say the answer is no. To my knowledge, there isn't really a backstory or culture for goblins in D&D. Eberron being the exception, but Eberron is an exception for pretty much everything, that does not really say anything about all the other D&D settings.

[Lord Vukodlak]

If you want some goblinoid lore in D&D, look in the Eberron setting. It's the only D&D world that treats them as anything other than conveniently evil XP fodder. In all other D&D material, the description of goblins, hobgoblins and such comes down to "look how evil, stupid and horrible they are".

You haven't seen Golorion have you? Goblins get there own racial book alongside Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes etc. There society and psychology detailed for all to see its hilariously horrific.

Most of the book is lore so it could still be valuable across editions.

[Morty]

I am aware of what Golarion does with goblinoids and orcs. As far as I know, it's all a more wordy elaboration on "look how horrible, evil and deserving of death they all are".

[SiuiS]

Golarion is the pathfinder continent, yes? It is noteworthy in being an exception which proves the rule. They made the setting to cover gaps in prior edition weirdness, hence the pathfinder society, the new backstory for goblins, and some other stuff. In dungeons and dragons, these things did not exist, so someone else made them.


Of course, saying they didn't exist is from the 3e point of view requiring explicit data. OD&D, 1e and 2e had a rich and slowly waning tradition of implicit setting material. We could probably use that to figure out what the deal with goblins is, if we are willing to accept they aren't always going ot be an organism which adheres to rigid evolutionary ecology.

[Blightedmarsh]

I think goblinoids are supposed to be native fey; distantly related to gnomes in fact.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I am aware of what Golarion does with goblinoids and orcs. As far as I know, it's all a more wordy elaboration on "look how horrible, evil and deserving of death they all are".

And Eberron does something different? Nope they don't they're still portrayed as angry aggressive little neutral evil buggers. Eberron didn't take any of the evil out of goblins as a whole. They're just not the pathetic wretches they are in most settings they get to have nations and some grudging respect but not much.

[Morty]

It gives them history, culture and an actual possibility for a place in the setting other than "conveniently evil low-level enemies". So, yes. It gives them something different. I don't really like Eberron very much, but the way it treats "monster races" and alignment in general is very good.

[commander panda]

oh wow, this thing exploded overnight.

so the consensus is that they remain heartless little buggers across all platforms and settings?
i can work with that, i think. thank you. i'll look into the pathfinder and eberron lore.

[JeenLeen]

I think the monster manual description of a barghest gives a little insight. They seem to be some sort of demonic goblin-wolf hybrid, and like to rule goblin tribes once they get strong enough. (At least in one thing I read about them... don't actually know if it was official.)

But what to make of that, I'm not sure.

[The Oni]

Goblins are goblins. In general, they're going to be nasty, smelly, hilariously violent rat bastards (with, at least in PF, a phobia of the written word, explaining their apparent hostility towards any kind of change or civilization).

Pathfinder, however, had at least one mission featuring a non-horrible Goblin allied NPC. So presumably their general evilness/stabbiness is a cultural thing, and if they'd refrain from stabbing any non-goblin humanoids in the vicinity for five minutes they might gain the benefits of civilization that other humanoids enjoy.