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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Troll in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada

    Default Weird detachment

    This could happen with other things, but I will use the one bugging me right now. I like Magic of Incarnum (the Incarnate class specifically), which is a 3.5 product. Alas, some of the feats (for example) are left with wording that is ambiguous. Doubly alas, there is no official errata for MoI, and the few references to it in the last 3.5 FAQ (based on Sage advice columns) do not touch on the subjects. Triply alas, Wotc is not only past 3.5, it is pretty much past 4th ed and into 5th ed. I will never, ever get any official ruling on the questions I have.

    Now if I am actually playing a character in MoI, I could simply ask my DM to make rulings (heck that has been traditional since OD&D was released in 1974). But the campaigns I am in now are either not 3.5 or don't allow MoI (and plus I would have to stop playing other characters that I like to start a new one if it were allowed). If I were running the game, I suppose I could make rulings if anyone wanted to play a character from MoI (although the latter is only slightly more likely than Wotc putting out an errata for MoI).

    But sometimes I just like to make up characters even if they are not going to be used. And then I get a sort of detached removal from the fun of the chargen mini-game if I also at the same time need to make rulings on ambiguous stuff.

    Anyhow, I guess this is something that may not come up that much as a malady, as most people are quite happy to make up rules. I just wish that there was some more objective RAW to point to, and since there is none, I get sort of existential about it, perhaps.

    Maybe I just need to find a group that allows MoI. Just to play an Incarnate and get in out of my system.

    I guess I am Lawful enough that I miss not having a RAW errata for MoI.

    Light the lamp not the rat LIGHT THE LAMP NOT THE RAT!!!

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Telonius's Avatar

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    May 2006
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    Wandering in Harrekh
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    Default Re: Weird detachment

    Any feats in particular that are bothering you? I honestly just skimmed most of them, since it seemed a lot were for multiclassed characters, so I never really noticed if the wordings were off.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Jul 2005
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada

    Default Re: Weird detachment

    Well, here are a few:

    Midnight Metamagic - How exactly does it work? Is it one of the few incarnate feats that does not lock away essentia for 24 hours, but only in spells, and only until a spell is cast? Or is there a separate investment, first of essentia from one's class pool into the feat itself and then from one's class pool (not directly from the feat) into each spell affected (so that the latter investment is freed when the spell is cast but the former investment is locked up for 24 hours)?

    Open Least/Lesser/Greater Chakra - does it give you a free binding? Does it give you a "only for this chakra" binding"? Does it merely give you a space to put a binding, should you somehow get a binding by class ability or epic feat?

    Split Chakra - Can you take this before you open the chakra (say take it as an 18th level incarnate for the soul chakra before you hit 19th level and can actually open the soul chakra), and if so, can you bind a magic item to the relevant chakra before you reach the level that you can bind a soulmeld there?

    Does Shape Soulmeld count against one's class limit (if an incarnate say) of soulmelds, or is it an extra one?

    Can one gain Incarnate Avatar/Incarnate Weapon through Shape Soulmeld if one is (completely) Neutral? If so, what happens? Can one gain it if one is (say) Lawful Good? If so, what happens?

    If one has Split Chakra (crown) and Double Chakra (crown) can one have 3 bindings on that Chakra, all of which count against one's class limit of bindings (I assume yes)? So (presumably after many epic levels and feats and an insanely high constitution score) one could have 30 bindings, 20 to souldmelds and 10 to magic items?

    Share Soulmeld: Can one share soul meld with the soul meld "soulspark familiar"? If so, can the soul spark only get heart and soul soulmelds shared from you, and is it true that it would be unable to put essential into such soul melds (because it doesn't have any of its own, just yours) or would your essential in that soul meld also "carry over" to the familiar, or would you have to pay twice the essentia cost, once for you and once for the familiar? Would a binding carry over to the familiar too? (The latter questions actually apply to familiars in general, not just soulspark familiars).

    More generally,

    Do "magic item bindings" count against a class limit of bindings (I assume yes)?

    If one has an Incarnum Focus and binds it to a chakra, does that count against one's class limit of bindings?

    Does binding Airstep Sandals to one's feet give one true flight or still the "must land at end of round" flight?

    Light the lamp not the rat LIGHT THE LAMP NOT THE RAT!!!

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Kitchener/Waterloo
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    Default Re: Weird detachment

    What you're looking for is objective truth about the rules, essentially.

    That's a tricky act to follow. RAW is of course the benchmark here, but nobody except possibly Curmudgeon thinks that RAW is always (or even usually) unambiguous. RAI is impossible to determine without actually hearing from the author, and is probably irrelevant anyway (Death of the Author etc.). RAMS depends heavily on who it's making sense to, as any conversation with Tippy will quickly reveal.

    I feel like a stronger position to take for this sort of thing is what I like to call "rules as consistent". Basically, you interpret the rules based on overall trends in the rest of the rules, and other WotC works. This makes it easier to use modules and the like, since you're basing things on the most prevalent interpretations confined therein. It's still got a good deal of ambiguity, but I've found in practice that it's clearer than many other rubrics, though sometimes the answer is "wait for errata that will never come".
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  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Telonius's Avatar

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    Default Re: Weird detachment

    Midnight Metamagic: from my reading, you invest a number of essentia (up to your essentia capacity) into the feat. You can take that number and divide it up among particular spells and metamagic feats. (That's why the example in the feat description mentions that you'd have to have an essentia capacity of 3). When you cast the spell, the essentia you'd used for it, goes back to the regular essentia pool, and is available to invest in whatever you want to invest it in.


    For the Open Chakra feats, I'm pretty sure the feat just allows you to bind a soulmeld or an item to the chakra. If you're able to shape a soulmeld, and that soulmeld can be bound to the chakra in question, you can bind it.

    For someone who doesn't have a meldshaping class, but can shape a soulmeld through the Shape Soulmeld feat, I think the intent was that they'd be able to bind one to whatever chakra is opened. I think it is pretty ambiguous as to whether or not this counts against the number of chakras bound, if you have a class list.


    For magic item bindings, page 108: "Much like a meldshaper binds soulmelds to his chakras, you can bind a magic item to one of your centers of bodily power." That sounds very much to me like you'd follow the same rules for binding an item as binding a soulmeld. It would count against the daily total.


    Split Chakra: no prerequisite is listed. So yes, as written, you'd be able to take it before the chakra is actually opened for regular soulmelds, and bind a magic item there before you can bind a soulmeld.


    Shape Soulmeld: ... no idea. Just as ambiguous as the Open Chakra issue.


    Incarnate Avatar through Shape Soulmeld: Shape Soulmeld says to follow the rules on page 49; the "Meld Selection" heading on page 50 calls out that the shaper can shape anything, "barring alignment restrictions (if an incarnate or a soulborn)." I think that would mean the True Neutral character could pick it if he wants, but that he couldn't actually shape it unless his alignment changed.

    (And I'm off to bed for now... those are just my reads on it, and I completely agree the wording is terrible on all of them).

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