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    Default Base Prestige classes (Duelist)

    No, seriously, I'm gonna stick all of these in one post at some point. Pelor knows when.

    The Duelist
    Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
    1st +1 +0 +2 +0 Canny Defence
    2nd +2 +0 +3 +0 Improved Reaction +2
    3rd +3 +1 +3 +1 Enhanced Mobility +4
    4th +4 +1 +4 +1 Grace +2
    5th +5 +1 +4 +1 Precise Strike +1d6
    6th +6/+1 +2 +5 +2 Acrobatic Charge
    7th +7/+2 +2 +5 +2 Elaborate Parry
    8th +8/+3 +2 +6 +2 Improved Reaction +4
    9th +9/+4 +3 +6 +3 Deflect Arrows
    10th +10/+5 +3 +7 +3 Precise Strike +2d6
    11th +11/+6/+1 +3 +7 +3 Grace +4, Enhanced Mobility +6
    12th +12/+7/+2 +4 +8 +4 Riposte
    13th +13/+8/+3 +4 +8 +4 Block Magic
    14th +14/+9/+4 +4 +9 +4 Improved Reaction +6
    15th +15/+10/+5 +5 +9 +5 Precise Strike +3d6
    16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +5 +10 +5 Deflect Magic
    17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Undeniable Challenge
    18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +6 Grace +6
    19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +6 Enhanced Mobility +8
    20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +6 Dance of Death, Precise Strike +4d6, Improved Reaction +8
    Alignment: Any
    Hit Die: 1d10

    Class Skills:
    The duelist’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Tumble (Dex).
    Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier


    Weapon and Armor Proficiency
    The duelist is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, but no type of armor or shield.

    Canny Defense (Ex)
    When not wearing armor or using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

    Improved Reaction (Ex)
    At 2nd level, and every 6th level thereafter, a duelist gains a +2 bonus on initiative checks. This bonus stacks with the benefit provided by the Improved Initiative feat.

    Enhanced Mobility (Ex)
    When wearing no armor and not using a shield, a duelist gains an additional +4 bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity caused when she moves out of a threatened square. Every 8 levels, this bonus increases by +2.

    Grace (Ex)
    At 4th level, and every 7 levels thereafter, a duelist gains an additional +2 competence bonus on all Reflex saving throws. This ability functions for a duelist only when she is wearing no armor and not using a shield.

    Precise Strike (Ex)
    At 5th level, and every 5th level thereafter, a duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, gaining an extra 1d6 damage added to her normal damage roll.

    When making a precise strike, a duelist cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield. A duelist’s precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to a precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike.

    Acrobatic Charge (Ex)
    At 6th level, a duelist gains the ability to charge in situations where others cannot. She may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement. Depending on the circumstance, she may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain.

    Elaborate Parry (Ex)
    At 7th level and higher, if a duelist chooses to fight defensively or use total defense in melee combat, she gains an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC for each level of duelist she has.

    Deflect Arrows
    At 9th level, a duelist gains the benefit of the Deflect Arrows feat when using a light or one-handed piercing weapon.

    Riposte (Ex)
    From 12th level, failing to hit the duelist while in the duelist's threatened area provokes an attack of opportunity from the duelist.

    Block Magic (Su)
    From 13th level, a creature using any spell, power, spell-like ability or psi-like ability which does not affect an area and which would harm or in any way be detrimental to the duelist must roll to hit with that spell as a ranged touch attack (Or melee touch attack if it was already required). Failure means that the spell does not affect the duelist, but it might still affect other targets as normal.

    Note that spells which do not directly harm the duelist, such as divinations, need not be rolled for.

    Deflect Magic (Su)
    From 16th level, when a creature misses the duelist with a spell, power, spell-like ability or psi-like ability, the duelist may fire the spell back at the caster as an immediate action. The caster is considered the target of the spell, and the duelist is considered its caster, though she uses the real caster's caster level, ability score modifiers and save DCs.

    Undeniable Challenge (Su)
    From 17th level, once per encounter the duelist may declare an undeniable challenge. The duelist chooses one creature she can see, and who can hear her, and challenges that creature. From then on, no other creature can attack the duelist until such a time as either the duelist or the creature in question is slain, five rounds pass with neither challenger nor challenged attempting to harm or disadvantage the other, the duelist attacks another creature, another creature attacks the challenged foe in earnest, or a full hour passes. The duelist must also make an honest or at least realistic attempt to fight the challenged creature.

    Dance of Death (Su)
    From 20th level, the duelist may make a dance of death attack as a full-round action. A dance of death is a full attack, but each attack in the dance of death is made in a special way. The duelist moves up to her full movement distance, ignoring foes in her path, and makes the relevant attack against each and every enemy in her path. She also makes a free trip attempt, as though she had the improved trip feat, against any target she hits (she need not make another touch attack). She then repeats this process for each other attack she is capable of making.

    If she is armed with a ranged weapon, the dance of death proceeds slightly differently. For each attack she can make, she moves up to her full movement distance again ignoring foes in her path, before making the attack normally against anyone in range. If there are no targets in range or she does not wish to fire, she needn't. She repeats this process for each enemy in range.

    Regardless of which method she chooses, for each attack she must choose which direction she will face in, before making her movement as though flying with good maneuverability (Though she is likely not actually flying). This serves only to restrict the number of times she may turn during her movement. If she truly is flying, she uses whichever of her own maneuverability or good maneuverability is worse. In any case, she is free to turn as much as she wishes after making each attack.

    If she is using both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon, or a melee weapon that can be thrown, she must choose which variant of the dance of death she will use before she does so. If she runs out of ammunition, she can complete the dance, but makes no further actual attacks.
    Last edited by Jormengand; 2014-03-31 at 02:26 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Base Prestige classes for 3.5 (Duelist)

    The first thing that aprings to mind if that you have an insane Rexflex save and nothing yo do with it. What about some of ability to convert Fort/Will saves into Reflex? It would really help cement the duelist as someone tricky to 1v1.

    I also recommend adding a 1d6 of Precise Strike to 1st level. As it sits they could be less tanky than a rogue and do less damage. I think a little early love would be nice.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Base Prestige classes for 3.5 (Duelist)

    specify precise strike as precision damage, so that it can benefit from those things which buff precision damage.

    add craft and profession to class skills.

    needs uncanny dodge and evasion.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    Default Re: Base Prestige classes for 3.5 (Duelist)

    Precision Damage is not an actual game term IIRC. To get the juicy stuff he would.need to hook Precise Strike into Sneak Attack (which does not feel very flavorful).

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    Default Re: Base Prestige classes for 3.5 (Duelist)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Hit Die: 1d10
    Seems kind of big.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency
    The duelist is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, but no type of armor or shield.
    Blech! Can't we get light armor proficiency?

    Canny Defense (Ex)
    When not wearing armor or using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.
    Let this be the full Int bonus, and let it scale like the monks, otherwise the duelist WILL DIE at first level.

    Improved Reaction (Ex)
    At 2nd level, and every 6th level thereafter, a duelist gains a +2 bonus on initiative checks. This bonus stacks with the benefit provided by the Improved Initiative feat.
    Meh. It's alright... why not convert to Int to AC, though?

    Enhanced Mobility (Ex)
    When wearing no armor and not using a shield, a duelist gains an additional +4 bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity caused when she moves out of a threatened square. Every 8 levels, this bonus increases by +2.
    Blech. I'd grant Mobility as a bonus feat, just so they can qualify for stuff, and then at a later level let them just ignore the AoO from moving.

    Grace (Ex)
    At 4th level, and every 7 levels thereafter, a duelist gains an additional +2 competence bonus on all Reflex saving throws. This ability functions for a duelist only when she is wearing no armor and not using a shield.
    Oh boy, a boost to a save that was already fantastic and yet is the least important of all saving throws at high levels.

    Precise Strike (Ex)
    At 5th level, and every 5th level thereafter, a duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, gaining an extra 1d6 damage added to her normal damage roll.

    When making a precise strike, a duelist cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield. A duelist’s precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to a precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike.
    This should probably come online sooner, and scale faster, since you're using a combat style with (practically) no support otherwise.

    Acrobatic Charge (Ex)
    At 6th level, a duelist gains the ability to charge in situations where others cannot. She may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement. Depending on the circumstance, she may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain.
    Decent, one supposes.

    Elaborate Parry (Ex)
    At 7th level and higher, if a duelist chooses to fight defensively or use total defense in melee combat, she gains an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC for each level of duelist she has.
    The bonus is sizable, I guess, though I feel like this is unlikely to come up.

    Deflect Arrows
    At 9th level, a duelist gains the benefit of the Deflect Arrows feat when using a light or one-handed piercing weapon.
    OK, I guess? Can we maybe deflect Dex Mod arrows/round, though?

    Riposte (Ex)
    From 12th level, failing to hit the duelist while in the duelist's threatened area provokes an attack of opportunity from the duelist.
    This one is nice.

    Block Magic (Su)
    From 13th level, a creature using any spell, power, spell-like ability or psi-like ability which does not affect an area and which would harm or in any way be detrimental to the duelist must roll to hit with that spell as a ranged touch attack (Or melee touch attack if it was already required). Failure means that the spell does not affect the duelist, but it might still affect other targets as normal.

    Note that spells which do not directly harm the duelist, such as divinations, need not be rolled for.
    That's nice. (should probably be "Dodge Magic," though). Could maybe come online a bit earlier, though?

    Deflect Magic (Su)
    From 16th level, when a creature misses the duelist with a spell, power, spell-like ability or psi-like ability, the duelist may fire the spell back at the caster as an immediate action. The caster is considered the target of the spell, and the duelist is considered its caster, though she uses the real caster's caster level, ability score modifiers and save DCs.
    Very cool.

    Undeniable Challenge (Su)
    From 17th level, once per encounter the duelist may declare an undeniable challenge. The duelist chooses one creature she can see, and who can hear her, and challenges that creature. From then on, no other creature can attack the duelist until such a time as either the duelist or the creature in question is slain, five rounds pass with neither challenger nor challenged attempting to harm or disadvantage the other, the duelist attacks another creature, another creature attacks the challenged foe in earnest, or a full hour passes. The duelist must also make an honest or at least realistic attempt to fight the challenged creature.
    This is a very neat ability, but it feels like a trademark power coming online at the very end of the class. Move it up to first, man! Let it provide scaling bonuses against your target! And maybe offer a Will save to negate or something, it's seriously good right now.

    Dance of Death (Su)
    From 20th level, the duelist may make a dance of death attack as a full-round action. A dance of death is a full attack, but each attack in the dance of death is made in a special way. The duelist moves up to her full movement distance, ignoring foes in her path, and makes the relevant attack against each and every enemy in her path. She also makes a free trip attempt, as though she had the improved trip feat, against any target she hits (she need not make another touch attack). She then repeats this process for each other attack she is capable of making.
    Cool, but pretty weak for 20th.

    In conclusion:
    • Some good stuff, but it comes online way too late.
    • Things scale quite slowly, and they need more abilities. Where are the movement powers? Why can't I swing from chandeliers and slide down bannisters?
    • Can we maybe get Int and/or Dex to more things, to reduce MAD? (The Swashbuckler, which this basically is, gets Int to damage and free Weapon Finesse...)
    • Also, why not switch Int for Cha, which seems more appropriate?
    • Lacks a way to contribute out-of-combat.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2014-03-13 at 06:58 PM.

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    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Base Prestige classes for 3.5 (Duelist)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Seems kind of big.
    duelist is a front line melee class. it should have a D10. especially since it can't afford a high constitution, since it needs dex and int for ac.

    although suddenly at 7th level, it becomes nearly impossible to hit.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    Default Re: Base Prestige classes for 3.5 (Duelist)

    It only becomes impossible to hit if they smack someome at a silly penaltu or just stand and dodge.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Base Prestige classes for 3.5 (Duelist)

    normally, AC doesn't scale nearly well enough to keep a full bab class from hitting you consistently. taking a -4 isn't going to significantly affect your damage output. but putting that +9 dodge bonus to your AC (at level 7) means you are not going to be hit consistently. and as levels go up, your own minus 4 to hit matters less and less, as you get more attack bonus to spare, while your AC just shoots up, and up, and up. eventually even primary natural attacks and first weapon attacks are going to be unlikely to land. and you're pretty much immune to touch spells.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

    Where did you start yours?

    The PCs were already a special forces type unit in a kingdom's military, so the campaign started in the general's office.

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    Default Re: Base Prestige classes for 3.5 (Duelist)

    Trust me: from experience that -4 is hideous at any level. Althought if they grabbed a.PP granying race they could get Deep Impact and ignore it that way...

    Either way, they can only take the -4 if there is someone to hit. If they are forced into total defense they become as threatening as a road cone. I do see what you mean. Thought: what about lowering the amount and permitting it to work with Combat Expertise? Like say a flat double to the bonus gained? It would be insane at lower level, but still be useful at higher ones and, if needed, it can scale up (to like 2x + y, where x is the attack penalty and y is level/5).

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Base Prestige classes for 3.5 (Duelist)

    you don't actually have to make any attacks to fight defensively. if someone is firing spells at them, they can fight defensively, instead of taking the total defense, so that they don't give up their attacks of opportunity. or, they can use a hand crossbow, and actually get some attacks in (precise strike is not limited to melee, so this class can actually build a decent crossbow archer).
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    Default Re: Base Prestige classes for 3.5 (Duelist)

    That is not what the SRD says about it and I don't have my rules compendium on me. I will post it to the RAW Q and A for a definitive answer.

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    Default Re: Base Prestige classes for 3.5 (Duelist)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Seems kind of big.


    Blech! Can't we get light armor proficiency?


    Let this be the full Int bonus, and let it scale like the monks, otherwise the duelist WILL DIE at first level.


    Meh. It's alright... why not convert to Int to AC, though?


    Blech. I'd grant Mobility as a bonus feat, just so they can qualify for stuff, and then at a later level let them just ignore the AoO from moving.


    Oh boy, a boost to a save that was already fantastic and yet is the least important of all saving throws at high levels.


    This should probably come online sooner, and scale faster, since you're using a combat style with (practically) no support otherwise.

    The bonus is sizable, I guess, though I feel like this is unlikely to come up.


    OK, I guess? Can we maybe deflect Dex Mod arrows/round, though?
    You'll have to argue with WotC on all these ones.


    This is a very neat ability, but it feels like a trademark power coming online at the very end of the class. Move it up to first, man! Let it provide scaling bonuses against your target! And maybe offer a Will save to negate or something, it's seriously good right now.
    I thought that "No-one but this guy can fight me!" would be a good, flavourful class ability, but for a high level.


    Cool, but pretty weak for 20th.
    Ehh. I don't like "You must take 20 levels in this class" capstones (read: Conjunctive gate)

    In conclusion:
    • Some good stuff, but it comes online way too late.
    • Things scale quite slowly, and they need more abilities. Where are the movement powers? Why can't I swing from chandeliers and slide down bannisters?
    • Can we maybe get Int and/or Dex to more things, to reduce MAD? (The Swashbuckler, which this basically is, gets Int to damage and free Weapon Finesse...)
    • Also, why not switch Int for Cha, which seems more appropriate?
    • Lacks a way to contribute out-of-combat.
    I like my good stuff coming online late, and my not-so-good stuff coming online at early levels.

    I'm trying to stay with duelist and keep out of unrealistic hero who has hour-long duels with people.

    I guess taking away the STR requirement is probably a good idea.

    Again, we're a duelist, not a dashing swordsman. We're intelligent, not showy. We know how to hit things well, not how to act well.

    Well, duelists are kind of meant to duel things. How's it supposed to contribute out-of-combat, duel the door?
    Last edited by Jormengand; 2014-03-14 at 11:45 AM.

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    Default Re: Base Prestige classes for 3.5 (Duelist)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    You'll have to argue with WotC on all these ones.
    Just because you're adapting a (crappy) prestige class doesn't mean you should ignore balance. You're creating something new; take the opportunity to fix things that didn't work, like being a front-line fighter with a wizard's AC.

    Ehh. I don't like "You must take 20 levels in this class" capstones (read: Conjunctive gate)
    That's the point of a capstone, though. It's to reward you for not jumping out to prestige classes. If you don't see things that way, that's your prerogative, but it's still a weak ability for the level you get it.

    I like my good stuff coming online late, and my not-so-good stuff coming online at early levels.
    So... we're not going to have anything nice at low-levels, where most play takes place?

    I'm trying to stay with duelist and keep out of unrealistic hero who has hour-long duels with people.
    A) Don't fall into the "guy at the gym" fallacy.
    B) Swashbuckler moves are what people will expect from a class like this. It feels really weird not to have 'em.

    Well, duelists are kind of meant to duel things. How's it supposed to contribute out-of-combat, duel the door?
    Stealth skills? Mobility? I dunno, it's your class, but I (for one) consider it poor design to have a class that can't (mechanically) contribute at all outside its specialty. It doesn't have to be good at everything, but it can at least have some non-stabby skills.

    STaRS (and STaRS Lite)
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    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

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    Default Re: Base Prestige classes for 3.5 (Duelist)

    At a gance, I'm puzzled that you don't seem to have a cohesive power level you're going for with you prestige conversions.
    I'd have a very hard time seeing a duelist in a party with a dragon disciple.

    Regarding taking it up with wotc: Just because someone has made something bad doesn't mean you have to do so too if you make something based on it. You didn't have issues with blowing the original dragon disciple out of the water, why are you limiting yourself here?

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    Default Re: Base Prestige classes for 3.5 (Duelist)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Just because you're adapting a (crappy) prestige class doesn't mean you should ignore balance. You're creating something new; take the opportunity to fix things that didn't work, like being a front-line fighter with a wizard's AC.
    Dex is one of your main stats. You'll live.

    That's the point of a capstone, though. It's to reward you for not jumping out to prestige classes. If you don't see things that way, that's your prerogative, but it's still a weak ability for the level you get it.
    Yeah, but that doesn't mean it has to be better than the entire prestige class put together.


    So... we're not going to have anything nice at low-levels, where most play takes place?
    You're not getting anything amazing. First level is where rogues get three and a half extra damage under specific circumstances, where barbarians get +2 to attack and +3 to damage rolls for a few rounds each day, and where fighters have to choose from the inglorious clusterflub formerly known as the fighter feat list.

    A) Don't fall into the "guy at the gym" fallacy.
    I'm... not? I'm not saying "The guy at the gym couldn't do that, so no-one can." I'm saying "That would be a really stupid but incredibly showy stunt which I would expect in a really corny film but no-one would actually do that in a real-life situation, much less do it often enough that it can be considered a class feature."

    B) Swashbuckler moves are what people will expect from a class like this. It feels really weird not to have 'em.
    Really? To me, it feels weird for my duelist to have dashing swordsman class features.


    Stealth skills? Mobility? I dunno, it's your class, but I (for one) consider it poor design to have a class that can't (mechanically) contribute at all outside its specialty. It doesn't have to be good at everything, but it can at least have some non-stabby skills.
    Stealth skills are almost useless unless you really, really need the surprise round or the whole party has them, and it already has mobility (enhanced mobility, acrobatic charge, dance of death even... yeah.)

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    Default Re: Base Prestige classes for 3.5 (Duelist)

    I agree with most of what Grod is saying but disagree with

    B) Swashbuckler moves are what people will expect from a class like this. It feels really weird not to have 'em.
    The Duelist and the Swashbuckler are different archetypes from the same mold in my mind. Both use the same general fighting style (slightly more defensive bent, generally using an einhander style); but they're as different as the Fighter and the Rogue. The Duelist I see as the Fighter of the two, more martially focused, goes for the straight up fight, backs his opponents into a corner through constant pressure and tactics to secure victory. The Swashbuckler I see as the Rogue of the two, lots of flashy moves to impress and befuddle, lots of mobility tricks, and a focus on attacking from places where he shouldn't be able to and taking advantage of the environment.

    Which is to say, while it shouldn't be impossible to have a Duelist who acts like a Swashbuckler, I don't think the Swashbuckler tricks are necessary on a Duelist class. However as it stands this rendition of the Duelist is disappointing, being just the awful 3.5 prestige class available from level 1 for the first 12 levels of your career with all of the drawbacks that entails. Horrible MAD, no offensive presence, defense is focused entirely on AC until very high levels, both saves that matter are awful. There's very little mobility or tactical capability available to the class at all. And yes, a lot of that stems from adapting the Prestige Class wholesale, but it doesn't change that those are very serious flaws that make this class all but unplayable.


    edit:
    You're not getting anything amazing. First level is where rogues get three and a half extra damage under specific circumstances, where barbarians get +2 to attack and +3 to damage rolls for a few rounds each day, and where fighters have to choose from the inglorious clusterflub formerly known as the fighter feat list.
    At 1st level you are a Fighter who spent his bonus feat on Dodge, and traded good fort for good reflex to gain a couple extra skill points.

    At second level, you get a half-strength improved initiative.

    At third level, you get Mobility for free.

    At fourth level, you blow your bonus feat on lightning reflexes.

    At Fifth level, you now have the precision damage a rogue had 4 levels ago.

    At Sixth level, you can now charge over difficult terrain. Unfortunately you're restricted to a one-handed weapon, so you are not a charger in any sense of the word.



    Seriously, look at that list of abilities and tell me you honestly believe that you couldn't find some Fighter feats that make you infinitely better than that. You want to scoff at bonus feats? You have a bunch of ****ty class features here that make bonus feats look liking the gold ****ing standard for quality class abilities.


    You might say that I am being unfair to Canny Defense. But seriously, at level 1 it's capped at +1. That is strike one against caring about your int. You never have any way to add it to anything EXCEPT AC, that's strike two against caring about int.

    In fact, you may be a stronger character if you ignore the entire fluff and EVERY CLASS FEATURE YOU GET to pick up a greatsword and go max strength and just power attack everything until around level 12. *looks* Oh wait, nope. Even after that, you want to just keep using your greatsword. Precise strike adds less damage than you gain from the different weapon type. Canny Defense doesn't care. Elaborrate Parry doesn't care. None of your new high level abilities seem to care. Looks like all you lose is Precise Strike and Deflect arrows.

    Bonus points if you go ahead and get some armor as well. Without Int being a primary that's never going to add more than +5 or so, you can get that same thing with a mithral breastplate, knock its ACP down to 0 and you don't care that you don't have proficiency. Congratulations, we have a duelist who uses two handed weapons, armor, and doesn't get a single class feature he cares about for the first half of his career. What a great class!
    Last edited by Seerow; 2014-03-14 at 12:40 PM.
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  17. - Top - End - #17
    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Base Prestige classes for 3.5 (Duelist)

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    At 1st level you are a Fighter who spent his bonus feat on Dodge, and traded good fort for good reflex to gain a couple extra skill points.

    At second level, you get a half-strength improved initiative.

    At third level, you get Mobility for free.

    At fourth level, you blow your bonus feat on lightning reflexes.

    At Fifth level, you now have the precision damage a rogue had 4 levels ago.

    At Sixth level, you can now charge over difficult terrain. Unfortunately you're restricted to a one-handed weapon, so you are not a charger in any sense of the word.



    Seriously, look at that list of abilities and tell me you honestly believe that you couldn't find some Fighter feats that make you infinitely better than that. You want to scoff at bonus feats? You have a bunch of ****ty class features here that make bonus feats look liking the gold ****ing standard for quality class abilities.


    You might say that I am being unfair to Canny Defense. But seriously, at level 1 it's capped at +1. That is strike one against caring about your int. You never have any way to add it to anything EXCEPT AC, that's strike two against caring about int.

    In fact, you may be a stronger character if you ignore the entire fluff and EVERY CLASS FEATURE YOU GET to pick up a greatsword and go max strength and just power attack everything until around level 12. *looks* Oh wait, nope. Even after that, you want to just keep using your greatsword. Precise strike adds less damage than you gain from the different weapon type. Canny Defense doesn't care. Elaborrate Parry doesn't care. None of your new high level abilities seem to care. Looks like all you lose is Precise Strike and Deflect arrows.

    Bonus points if you go ahead and get some armor as well. Without Int being a primary that's never going to add more than +5 or so, you can get that same thing with a mithral breastplate, knock its ACP down to 0 and you don't care that you don't have proficiency. Congratulations, we have a duelist who uses two handed weapons, armor, and doesn't get a single class feature he cares about for the first half of his career. What a great class!
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  18. - Top - End - #18
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Base Prestige classes for 3.5 (Duelist)

    What you really need to ask yourself is what could this as a single hand style class do that the other beat-sticks and flurriers would not be able to do?
    1. Up the action economy and make it mobile. Allow them to be able to ignore difficult terrain and use scenery to their mobile advantage.
    2. This class still really doesn't have much of a duelist flavor. Your most flavorful ability comes in when 9th level spells and maneuvers are around. Design a mechanic to allow them focus on certain enemies one at a time gaining special advantages as they study them.
    3. This class should be highly opportunistic. For example I would give them the ability to use a standard action that involves a single hand melee attack against a creature who is its focus but has also either provoked an AoO or has lost its dex. modifier against regardless whether it is their turn.
    I am not saying you should at all tailor abilities to match up against the Ubercharger's..etc but this should have its own mechanical edge and not simply AC and Reflex save numbers.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: Base Prestige classes for 3.5 (Duelist)

    First level of a mundane class should have an offensive ability that defines the class.

    Flurry of Blows
    Stunning Fist
    Favored Enemy
    Sneak Attack
    Smite Evil
    Rage


    This class gets nothing, for four levels. It has nothing but passive bonuses until it gets Precise Strike, and even then, that bonus is also passive, just a passive offensive bonus.

    You need something cooler, like:

    Dueling (Ex): A 1st level duelist can issue a challenge to a single enemy within 30' that he can see and hear as a swift action. He focuses all his energy on defeating that creature, taking a -2 penalty to attack rolls against other creatures, as well as a -2 penalty to AC against attacks made by other creatures. However, against that creature, his focus improves, granting him a +2 bonus to attack rolls against that creature, a +2 bonus to his AC against attacks made by that creature, and a bonus to his weapon damage rolls against that creature equal to his class level. This lasts until the duelist selects a new target for his dueling, until either the duelist or the target are defeated, or until the encounter ends.

    Improved Dueling (Ex): At 4th level, and every 4 levels after that, the bonus to attack rolls and AC granted by Dueling increase by +1 each, to a maximum of +7 to attack rolls and AC at level 20.

    Focused Dueling (Ex): At 7th level, a duelist treats his weapon's critical threat range as if it was twice as long for the purposes of attacks made against the target of his Dueling ability (18-20 becomes 15-20, etc). This effect does not stack with other effects that increase threat range unless those effects explicitly stack with the keen edge spell.

    Intensified Dueling (Ex): At 10th level, a duelist adds twice his class level to his damage rolls against the target of his Dueling ability, rather than just his class level. Additionally, if he kills the target of his dueling, he gains a +4 morale bonus to attack rolls, AC, skill checks and saving throws for the rest of the encounter.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2014-03-16 at 03:45 AM.

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