Riddles in your game

[Cikomyr]

I know riddles has been considered to be one of the classic component of Adventure Tales, and I know of many stories who incorporate them as classic challenges.

I was wondering if you ever use them yourself, as opposed to more.. mechanical challenges? Is it worth putting something that may block your players for a while whitout having any recourse?


Also, how do you deal with high-mental stats? "Yhea, I'm not super intelligent, but my character has an Int score of 20, so he would know the answer!".

[PersonMan]

I don't really use riddles as such, in part because they're often just a 'guess the right right answer' game, but puzzles in the sense of 'you have X, Y and Z, with Obstacle L in front of you, what do you do?' I do use.

High-Int or Wis characters will get hints from me. They can roll Int or Wis checks (so can anyone else, actually) for more and, if it's an actual riddle, I may just give them the answer if they've turned to rolling for it. In that case, well, my group is actually code/riddle/puzzle friendly so if they're trying to solve it via d20 I've made a mistake and should let them do so to avoid just freezing the game.

[BWR]

I rarely use them because I'd have to think them up ahead of time and even then they'd be terrible. Most cases where I need to be cryptic, like certain divination spells, turn up in session so I don't have time to think something up. If running a game with scripted riddles, I usually let my players mess things about. If they truly are stuck and can't think of anything, I generally allow Wisdom checks. Most riddles aren't based on pure brainpower, but on thinking a little outside the box and beyond the obvious and putting oneself in someone else's mindset, which are all Wisdom traits. If failing a riddle would ruin the game, and the players are stuck and all dice rolls fail, I'll generally suggest they find someone else, like a wise priest or scholar or something in hopes they can help (which they can).

[Amphetryon]

I dislike using riddles in games. They are generally either tests of Player intelligence (or worse, Player knowledge of GM's tendencies) rather than Character intelligence, or they're merely trappings for another excuse to roll a particular skill, couched in 'look what a creative GM I am' baggage.

In the former case, you're setting up situations where Pat - the Mensa member who uses RPGs to express the inner Big Dumb Brute via a low-intelligence Smasher build - isn't playing the Character on the sheet if Robin - the average IQ friend whose form of RPG escapism is in playing the Super Genius Wizard type - flounders working out the riddle and gets Pat to help. In the latter case, there are other ways to challenge the abilities of the Characters that don't come across with as much GM chest-thumping.

[ElenionAncalima]

I tend to avoid them. If your players aren't good at them it can bring a game to a grinding halt.

[Anxe]

I used to use them as actual obstacles, but my players hated that. Since then I've used them to dispense campaign information. I work them into prophecies to preserve a little bit of the mystery of the prophecy. I also did a riddle game with them that was played outside of the regular sessions via email. For each correct answer they got to ask a question of a nearly omniscient being.

Linky to my campaign log thread if you'd like to see the riddle game for yourself. It starts at post 52 and continues in posts 53 and 54.

[Ravens_cry]

The trouble is they are binary. You either get it or you do not, which means the game could be stalled for hours, or more, or breezed over in seconds. You, as the GM and planner, are probably the worst person to judge how hard a riddle is since you know the answer. Finally, they are a bit meta unless there is an in-universe reason for their existence, like the dungeon been some kind of test for induction into some kind of religious group, as who would trust their security to something anyone could potentially figure out?
Even the famous 'Friend' riddle is explicitly stated to be from more trusting times.

[Cikomyr]

The trouble is they are binary. You either get it or you do not, which means the game could be stalled for hours, or more, or breezed over in seconds. You, as the GM and planner, are probably the worst person to judge how hard a riddle is since you know the answer. Finally, they are a bit meta unless there is an in-universe reason for their existence, like the dungeon been some kind of test for induction into some kind of religious group, as who would trust their security to something anyone could potentially figure out?
Even the famous 'Friend' riddle is explicitly stated to be from more trusting times.

It wasn't even a Riddle; that's the thing.

It was just instructions. "Say Friend to get in"

[Ravens_cry]

It wasn't even a Riddle; that's the thing.

It was just instructions. "Say Friend to get in"

Yes, but it was a riddle to the characters.

[Cikomyr]

Yes, but it was a riddle to the characters.

Hmm..

A riddle that isn't meant to be a riddle.. I need to develop that. It's more of a "mystery" than an actual riddle.

[Legato Endless]

The trouble is they are binary. You either get it or you do not, which means the game could be stalled for hours, or more, or breezed over in seconds. You, as the GM and planner, are probably the worst person to judge how hard a riddle is since you know the answer. Finally, they are a bit meta unless there is an in-universe reason for their existence, like the dungeon been some kind of test for induction into some kind of religious group, as who would trust their security to something anyone could potentially figure out?
Even the famous 'Friend' riddle is explicitly stated to be from more trusting times.

Pretty much. Riddles work great in fantasy stories because they don't interfere with the pacing. You can justify them by having them be used by creatures that don't think rationally, or are inhuman. The famous "what walk on four legs…" is fine because it's not a ward at all, it's a cruel game. Not only do tabletops have pacing to worry about, they also lack the same detail orientation. Very few players will remember all your descriptions, whereas books lend themselves more easily to it, which makes untangling a riddle easier.

I think if you employ a riddle at all, it should be more an accompaniment than an obstacle. Let the players hear the riddle early and have a lot of time to solve it, and don't make solving it critical to moving forward. Maybe the hear the riddle of the sphinx and come back later. Perhaps the local ruler tells them something that could help unravel a local mystery. Riddles can work great as foreshadowing, since players can appreciate them after the fact even if they didn't untangle it. Still, it's hard to get the balance right. Too metaphorical and it won't feel fair, too literal and it can be groan worthy.

[Erasmas]

I typically only use them with one of the groups that I play with (who are older and more analytical in there thinking and do not tend to RP much anyways). I will usually give them as a means of cluing them in on some way to solve a puzzle faster or of hinting at what may lie ahead that is presently unseen. I try to keep most of them fairly specific and simple. For example, in the campaign I am running currently, they found a treasure map and found this riddle written on it:

Through deadly mist
And soup-like fog,
Where water runs
From ev'ry bog,
O'er the sunk bones
Of salty dogs,
Seek the island
Made up of frogs.

From twins sun set,
Turn 'round about.
Take forty paces,
And give a shout.
When ye hears ye,
Give it no doubt.
Where the land cries,
Seek yourself out.

The party then rolled to recall that there was a nearby island with a rocky formation called "Bullfrog Bluff". When they landed on the island and scouted about, they ended up finding a gathered pool of perfectly calm water, from where the setting sun was flawlessly reflected. When they paced off from there and shouted, they heard an echo coming from a nearby mountain. Following the source of the echo, they traced it to a waterfall... and found a cave hidden behind it (which was the entrance to the dungeon/treasure trove).

[Knaight]

I don't use them. I'm all for complex situations that have to be thought around, and even have a bit of a bad habit of setting up the politics of campaign areas to be a bit overly convoluted, but riddles have never worked for me. They feel extremely contrived, and are hard on verisimilitude.

[neonchameleon]

I know riddles has been considered to be one of the classic component of Adventure Tales, and I know of many stories who incorporate them as classic challenges.

I was wondering if you ever use them yourself, as opposed to more.. mechanical challenges? Is it worth putting something that may block your players for a while whitout having any recourse?


Also, how do you deal with high-mental stats? "Yhea, I'm not super intelligent, but my character has an Int score of 20, so he would know the answer!".

If you are using riddles in the game always allow The Alexander Technique. Brute force and smashing should always be able to get the PCs forward even if they miss much of the treasure and take more damage than otherwise. Or the riddle is e.g. to get into the keep without triggering the alarms.

Don't stall the party and stop them moving forward. Just give them an alternate way to progress.

[Socratov]

Ok, as a player I think riddles, when used well, can give that succulent adventury feel we long for, however, it shoudl be treaded as a spice, oppsoed to an ingredient. And ifyou really want to be clever about it: make it a riddle that has, depending on worldview, multiple answers. This way there is always a way onwards, but depending on the answer given, different effects or difficulties for different answers. This way the riddle beocmes less of an obstacle, and more of a test of character.

[Cikomyr]

I guess giving a Riddle as either a Prophecy, or.. I don't know, mystic forewarning. Stuff like "No man of woman born", or clues that would tie the Obsidian hurting the Cold Ones; passed down as old semi-forgotten Lore.

[Mutazoia]

I use riddles in my campaigns, but my campaigns are not riddled with them.

[Haruki-kun]

The one time I ran a game I addressed the game stalling by having a guide character with the players. The guide made little to no contributions to the party, but if the players got stalled with a puzzle or riddle, she would wonder out loud (that is to say, drop a hint).

If the players SERIOUSLY couldn't get it, then I'd have the guide figure out the answer. It never happened. Players always find a way.

[Ravens_cry]

The one time I ran a game I addressed the game stalling by having a guide character with the players. The guide made little to no contributions to the party, but if the players got stalled with a puzzle or riddle, she would wonder out loud (that is to say, drop a hint).

If the players SERIOUSLY couldn't get it, then I'd have the guide figure out the answer. It never happened. Players always find a way.

You wouldn't happen to be running a Lord of the Rings campaign for players who never heard of it, would you?

[jedipotter]

I was wondering if you ever use them yourself, as opposed to more.. mechanical challenges? Is it worth putting something that may block your players for a while whitout having any recourse?


Also, how do you deal with high-mental stats? "Yhea, I'm not super intelligent, but my character has an Int score of 20, so he would know the answer!".

I use riddles all the time. To challenge the players. Not the characters. If your a ''playing the character'' type player, you most likely won't be in my game. I want the players to have fun figuring things out.

Some times they get stuck, sure, but so what? It happens. Eventually they will figure something out. Only bad players just give up.

And if the 8 intelligence player can't figure out what ''animal is a walking half moon''

Spoiler

Show

a white turtle

, then the 20 intelligence character can't figure it out either.

[Ravens_cry]

Hmm..

A riddle that isn't meant to be a riddle.. I need to develop that. It's more of a "mystery" than an actual riddle.

The religious induction justification can be like that. An aspiring acolyte in that sect will know the answers easily, but, to an outsider, it will be a riddle.

[TuggyNE]

And if the 8 intelligence player can't figure out what ''animal is a walking half moon''

Spoiler

Show

a white turtle

, then the 20 intelligence character can't figure it out either.

Spoiler

Show

Are there any such things as white turtles?

[Ravens_cry]

Spoiler

Show

Are there any such things as white turtles?

Spoiler

Show

Albino turtles?

[Cikomyr]

Plus, wouldn't it be a walking FULL moon?

[Jay R]

When you use a riddle, you need to be sure you know what happens if they succeed, and you know what happens if they fail.

A riddle to answer is no different from a locked door to unlock, a bandit ambush to defeat, a political intrigue to unravel, a wall to climb, or any other obstacle. Don't let failure in any single encounter stop the narrative.

[jedipotter]

Plus, wouldn't it be a walking FULL moon?

In the game in question....the DM had made up some nice color glyphs. They were in some ruins, looking for the treasure of a long dead arcane group: The White Lords of Tosk. And they had lots of 'moon' refrences in everything, like the moon shaped carvings.

So they get the riddle of ''animal is a walking half moon'' and have the color glyphs to look through. One one of the glyphs sure looks like a half circle with four legs and a head.....

[Jay R]

Spoiler

Show

Are there any such things as white turtles?

Spoiler

Show

Yes:


There is even a connection to medieval Japan.

[AntiTrust]

I use them all the time and have had some pretty good success with them. If the players can figure it out themselves I give them a larger reward for solving it and if they can't figure it out I give the characters a chance using appropriate checks, divinations, etc. I find this encourages them to try to do it on their own in hopes for the greater reward

[Yora]

I don't use riddles at all. They always seem out of place.
The one good riddle I know in fantasy fiction is from Lord of the Rings, and the most important thing that makes that one work is, that the greatest challenge about it is to even realize that it's a riddle in the first place.
Nobody would ever create a complex and expensive magic lock, that can be defeated by everyone who just spends 10 minutes thinking about it a bit.

[Joe the Rat]

Riddles and Puzzles make for a nice break from rolling. And a nice excuse to hand out extra XP when the puzzle is solved rather than being brute forced or bypassed... Which should always be an option, as neonchameleon noted. Maybe not optimal, maybe not easy, but an option. You can always do the roll for hints (and reduced rewards) if they get stuck.

It may be better that these provide clues or added rewards, rather than act as roadblocks. If yours is a group that enjoys puzzles and mysteries and the like, this is a good addition. If your players groan every time they show up, maybe you should consider other tricks.

The catch is that you should consider your audience (the players) when you put these together. A group of (chronologically) mature adults will likely have the chops to handle some common riddles, sesquipedalian obfuscation of plebian aphorisms, or at least be able to match the closing line to right dirty limerick. Using a hidden word cipher translation with a group of 10-year-olds? Not so much.

The thing to remember here is that these types of things are challenges to the players, not (or not just) the characters. If you are insistent on the smart guy character (and you can cast these things as Wisdom challenges as much as Intelligence challenges, so don't get hung up on brainiac = clever) being the one to come up with smart guy answers, let the players collaborate so smart character can produce the answer. Or accept that anyone could have the solution. That's the thing about riddles - they're a common game of words and ideas. If your INT 10 WIS 8 knucklehead isn't clever enough to figure one out, there's no reason why he or she can't simply remember having heard that particular old chestnut. You can always come up with other in-game explanations. For our grown-up game, my idiot fighter cuts through riddles with ridiculous ease, because I'm pretty good with riddles. So we decided it's a cultural trait of Halflings.