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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    May 2012

    Default Yet Another Fighter Fix

    What do you all think of this idea as far as balance goes -- I am not concerned if it is "more powerful than class x" other than as a metric (game balance is inherently uneven). I am more interested in trying to target the fighter to be T3 or close to it for the sake of fun.

    Advanced Combat Training
    Beginning at 1st level and every odd numbered level after that, a fighter gains a new advanced combat training. These are chosen from the following list (not currently exhaustive). The fighter must meet all pre-reqs listed before taking the ACT.

    Fast Movement
    Pre-req (none)
    As Barbarian (including no heavy armor)

    Uncanny Dodge
    Pre-req (none)
    As Barbarian

    | Improved Uncanny Dodge
    | Pre-req (Uncanny Dodge)
    | As Barbarian

    Warrior of Nature
    Pre-req (none)
    The Fighter adds Survival, Handle Animal, Move Silently, and Hide to his Fighter class skill list. The Fighter gains an additional +1 skill point per level.

    | Animal Companion
    | Pre-req (Warrior of Nature)
    | As Ranger

    || Improved Animal Companion
    || Pre-req (Animal Companion)
    || As Druid

    Flurry of Blows
    Pre-req (none)
    As Monk, except a light weapon that the fighter is proficient with is chosen as the type of weapon that can be flurried with. A fighter who knows Flurry of Blows always gains the ability to use it with unarmed strikes as well. This flurry does not see a decrease in the attack penalty as it levels.

    | Improved Flurry of Blows
    | Pre-req (Flurry of Blows)
    | As Flurry of Blows, except the attack penalty does decrease with fighter levels (as a monk)

    Monk Unarmed Damage Progression
    Pre-req (none)
    As Monk

    Evasion
    Pre-req (none)
    As Monk

    | Improved Evasion
    | Pre-req (Evasion, character level 7th)
    | As Monk

    Sneak Attack +1d6
    Pre-req (none)
    As Rogue, this can be taken up to three times.

    Summon Familiar
    Pre-req (none)
    As Sorcerer

    Insightful Strike
    Pre-req (none)
    As Swashbuckler

    Fights from the Heart
    Pre-req (none)
    The Fighter adds Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, and Perform to his class skill list. The Fighter gains an additional +1 skill point per level.

    | Staredown
    | Pre-req (Fights from the Heart)
    | As Samurai

    || Mass Staredown
    || Pre-req (Staredown, Intimidate 10 ranks)
    || As Samurai

    | Inspire Courage
    | Pre-req (Fights from the Heart)
    | As Bard, but always remains at +1 bonus

    || Improved Inspire Courage
    || Pre-req (Inspire Courage)
    || As Bard, scales with level as bard as well.

    Mettle
    Pre-req (none)
    As Hexblade

    Skirmish +1d6
    Pre-req (none)
    As Scout

    Skirmish +1AC
    Pre-req (none)
    As Scout

    Sudden Strike +1d6
    Pre-req (none)
    As Ninja

    Arcane Blade
    Pre-req (none)
    The Fighter adds Spellcraft, Knowledge (the planes), Knowledge (arcana), and Use Magic Device to his Fighter class skill list. The Fighter gains an additional +1 skill point per level.

    | Arcane Training
    | Pre-req (Arcane Blade)
    | The Fighter gains the ability to cast a single 0th level arcane spell 3x/day. He must pass a DC 15 Spellcraft check for the spell to be cast, failure means the use for the day is wasted. Any DC's for the spells effects are equal to 10+INT mod.

    | Arcane Mastery
    | Pre-req (Arcane Training)
    | The fighter may cast his Arcane Training spell at will if he can pass the same check. The DC for the spells effects are equal to 12+INT mod.

    | Advanced Arcane Training
    | Pre-req (Arcane Training)
    | The Fighter gains the ability to cast a single 1st level arcane spell 1x/day. He must pass a DC 20 Spellcraft check for the spell to be cast, failure means the use for the day is wasted. Any DC's for the spells effects are equal to 11+INT.

    (Un)Holy Soldier
    Pre-req (none)
    The Fighter adds Knowledge (religion), Concentration, Heal, and Diplomacy to his Fighter class skill list. The Fighter gains an additional +1 skill point per level.

    | (Un)Holy Blessing
    | Pre-req ((Un)Holy Soldier)
    | The Fighter gains the ability to turn/rebuke undead 3x/day with an effective Cleric level equal to half his Fighter level (rounded down).

    || (Un)Holy Voice
    || Pre-req ((Un)Holy Blessing)
    || The Fighter's effective Cleric level is equal to his Fighter level for turning/rebuking undead.


    This is just a list using the abilities from the PHB, but could be expanded to include other class abilities as well. The idea is to make the fighter the modular combat chassis.

    Another idea I am playing around with to boost fighter is to allow FBF's to ignore ability-score pre-reqs of feats (or add their fighter level to their ability scores for determining if they qualify).

    Anyways, dissect away!


    EDIT: Added some more ACT's, still not complete, but updated!
    Last edited by Baroknik; 2014-03-16 at 01:23 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2013

    Default Re: Yet Another Fighter Fix

    Quote Originally Posted by Baroknik View Post
    Advanced Combat Training
    Beginning at 1st level and every odd numbered level after that, a fighter gains a new advanced combat training. These are chosen from the following list (not currently exhaustive). The fighter must meet all pre-reqs listed before taking the ACT.

    This is just a list using the abilities from the PHB, but could be expanded to include other class abilities as well. The idea is to make the fighter the modular combat chassis.
    This structure would work. It maintains the design purpose of fighter while also being open ended enough to achieve an actual fix.

    Problems so far:
    1) The list is not yet extensive enough
    2) The list is not consistent in power (Ranger animal companion is more efficient than the rest of the options)
    3) The list does not yet address the failures of the Fighter class
    3a) Failures like difficulty handling certain enviroments
    3b) Difficulty countering certain tactics
    3c) Difficulty bypassing certain defenses/targeting different defenses
    3d) Lack of high level options
    3e) Be helpful in all non combat encounters

    However the structure of this fix should be able to handle these issues if the content for this fix is improved/overhauled
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2014-03-16 at 11:38 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    May 2012

    Default Re: Yet Another Fighter Fix

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    This structure would work. It maintains the design purpose of fighter while also being open ended enough to achieve an actual fix.

    Problems so far:
    1) The list is not yet extensive enough
    2) The list is not consistent in power (Ranger animal companion is more efficient than the rest of the options)
    3) The list does not yet address the failures of the Fighter class
    3a) Failures like difficulty handling certain enviroments
    3b) Difficulty countering certain tactics
    3c) Difficulty bypassing certain defenses/targeting different defenses
    3d) Lack of high level options
    3e) Be helpful in all non combat encounters

    However the structure of this fix should be able to handle these issues if the content for this fix is improved/overhauled
    Yeah, it just occurred to me a bit ago, so it's far from a finished product, but I tend to forget about things unless I write them down somewhere. Will start working on the list more...

    By the way to balance out some of the power issues (AC for instance), what do you think of adding something like...

    Nature's Warrior
    The fighter may add Survival, Hide, and Move Silent to his Fighter class skills.

    And make that a pre-req for the AC one? It addresses the out-of-combat utility (to some extent) of the fighter, as well as making the AC option less ideal.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Anxe's Avatar

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    Location
    Davis, California
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    Default Re: Yet Another Fighter Fix

    A few more skill pack ones would be nice. I'd be tempted to increase them to 5 skills per pack. You'd also want to include an extra skill point or two per level with each skill pack. Otherwise, the fighter's measly two skill points are still going to feel like not enough.

    Something to deal with flight would be nice.

    And is this in addition to the feats already granted?

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    May 2012

    Default Re: Yet Another Fighter Fix

    Quote Originally Posted by Anxe View Post
    A few more skill pack ones would be nice. I'd be tempted to increase them to 5 skills per pack. You'd also want to include an extra skill point or two per level with each skill pack. Otherwise, the fighter's measly two skill points are still going to feel like not enough.

    Something to deal with flight would be nice.

    And is this in addition to the feats already granted?
    Not sure if I will directly address flight or not, but I may see if I can find a way (maybe down the Arcane tree).

    And yes, it is in addition to bonus feats. It may make the Fighter a bit strong compared to other melees, but the idea is to largely replace things like Ranger/Paladin/Monk with an actually decent modular package that can simulate them effectively.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Anxe's Avatar

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    Default Re: Yet Another Fighter Fix

    I'm a little hesitant about including sneak attack then. Making Fighter into a sort of "all the full BAB classes" makes sense, but sneak attack seems like it steps on the Rogue's toes. Do people in your campaigns often avoid rogue? If that's the case it makes sense. Otherwise, you might want to leave sneak attack off the list.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    May 2012

    Default Re: Yet Another Fighter Fix

    Quote Originally Posted by Anxe View Post
    I'm a little hesitant about including sneak attack then. Making Fighter into a sort of "all the full BAB classes" makes sense, but sneak attack seems like it steps on the Rogue's toes. Do people in your campaigns often avoid rogue? If that's the case it makes sense. Otherwise, you might want to leave sneak attack off the list.
    My thoughts with sneak attack is that if you want to match a rogue's progression, you can -- after all you are the combat guy. The trade off is that doing that makes you have basically no other place outside of combat. Where a rogue would have evasion, more skill points, more skills, trapfinding, etc. The all sneak-attack ACT fighter would have FBF and sneak attack... that's it.

    I could tone it down some and put a cap on it though -- maybe make it so you can take each precision damage thing a maximum of 3 times? You could still get +3d6 sneak attack +3d6 sudden strike and +3d6 skirmish that way, just would be a pain to track each one...

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Anxe's Avatar

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    Default Re: Yet Another Fighter Fix

    My point was that if there is a rogue in the party he is now going to feel useless in combat. The fighter has his only combat trick and is better at it because his BAB, AC, and HP are higher.

    It could work if sneak attack was allowed every other level, but I still don't see a reason anybody would play a rogue if this is also presented as an option.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    May 2012

    Default Re: Yet Another Fighter Fix

    Quote Originally Posted by Anxe View Post
    My point was that if there is a rogue in the party he is now going to feel useless in combat. The fighter has his only combat trick and is better at it because his BAB, AC, and HP are higher.

    It could work if sneak attack was allowed every other level, but I still don't see a reason anybody would play a rogue if this is also presented as an option.
    Gotcha, though my campaigns tend to be fairly intrigue based with combat thrown in for flavor (so there would be other reasons to play a rogue). I can see your point though -- for a lot of people, combat is the central part of the campaign. While in overall game balance a fighter being better than a rogue in combat isn't a bad thing, if he just objectively outstrips the rogue in combat he can be anti-fun in that case.

    Then again, a fighter with full SA already exists with full BAB. Though they do lose the fighter bonus feats... Will adjust the line up though... Putting a cap of 3d6 on it.
    Last edited by Baroknik; 2014-03-16 at 01:24 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Feb 2014

    Default Re: Yet Another Fighter Fix

    I like the idea! I'm gonna use this in my campaign. I'll give you credit. :P

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