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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Cleric Archetype: Kyton Embodier

    KYTON EMBODIER (ARCHETYPE)


    Diminished Spellcasting: A kyton embodier's number of non-domain spells per day for the highest spell level she can cast is one less than normal. If this reduces the number of spells per day for that level to 0, she gains only the bonus spells she would be entitled to based on her Wisdom score for that level, plus her domain spell for that level.

    Kyton Devotee: A kyton embodier treats the spiked chain as the favored weapon and (un)holy symbol of their deity, whether they actually worship one or not. Furthermore, a kyton embodier must select the Destruction domain with the Torture subdomain as one of their domains.

    Unnerving Gaze (Su): A kyton embodier acquires the ability to manipulate the perceptions of those who look upon them. If the target fails their will save, which has a DC equal to 10 + 1/2 kyton embodier level + her Charisma modifier, they become shaken for 1d4 + Charisma modifier rounds, increasing by 1d4 at each odd numbered level thereafter. A kyton embodier can choose to reduce the duration by 1d4 to make the target sickened, 3d4 to make the target frightened, 4d4 to make the target panicked, or 6d4 to make the target paralyzed with fear. A kyton embodier may use use their unnerving gaze a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. Using this is a standard action that does nor provoke an attack of opportunity, and has a range of 30 feet. This is a mind-affecting fear effect, and replaces the cleric's ability to Channel Energy.

    Kyton Apotheosis: As a kyton embodier advances in level, she acquires more and more of the traits of kytons, the very creatures they have come to worship. A kyton embodier possesses a resistance to cold equal to their kyton embodier level, and a regeneration equal to half of that level. This regeneration can be neutralized by good weapons, good spells, and silver weapons. Furthermore, a kyton embodier gains darkvision out to 5ft., increasing by 5ft. at each level thereafter to a maximum of 60ft.. If the kyton embodier already possesses darkvision, then it is increased by these amounts.. At 20th level, a kyton embodier's apotheosis has become complete. She becomes an outsider of the evil, lawful, and kyton subtypes.
    Last edited by Xuldarinar; 2014-03-31 at 07:38 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Cleric Archetype: Kyton Embodier

    This archetype feels very front-loaded.

    Diminished Spellcasting hurts you hard for the entire game, but particularly during the early (1-5) and late (15-20) levels. Less spells means that the cleric's main shtick becomes very limited early on, and during the later levels you are losing out on some of your best spells. In some ways, this is worse than losing a caster level.

    Limited Domains: Can you take the subdomains listed with these domains? Or is that only with the domains that you have specifically listed the subdomains of? Are the domains with subdomains in parenthesis only allowed to be taken with the subdomains?

    Ex: Could a Kyton Embodier gain the Psychopomp or Daemon subdomains? Could he gain War without taking blood?

    Either way, losing access to so many domains really hurts the Cleric, his domain choices are what help round out his spell-casting and provide him with nifty abilities to make up for the lack of class features.

    Channel Energy: IMO, I've never seen the point of pumping Cha for a Pathfinder Cleric. Channel energy isn't very useful beyond the first few levels, and even then the amount of healing you gain isn't that great. Losing this isn't a big deal.

    That's what we lose, what do we gain?

    Chained Faith: Essentially this is the same thing as having your deity's favored weapon be the spiked chain. A free feat is never bad, but in the end, with the spiked chain nerf, this isn't a big deal.

    Unnerving Gaze: Lose Channel Energy in return for a fear-based debuff. It's a single target, low-duration ability at first level that slowly picks up the duration as you level, and allows you to reduce the duration to amp up the effect. First, 1d4 rounds is exceedingly low, on average that will only last for 2.5 rounds of combat. At worst it's 1 round (which is trading a standard action for an enemy to have a minor debuff for one round) and at best it's 4 (still not very appealing for the action cost). This gets better as you level, but also suffers from the fact that it's a mind-affecting fear ability that targets will; thus easily resisted by anything with fear or mind-affecting immunity or even just a high will save. The only saving grace I can see is that this will stack with itself to escalate the fear. Start at shakened, then go to frightened, and finally panicked. The enemy would get a whole bunch of will saves, you'd be down 3 standard actions and you'd burn up 3 uses of the ability, but at least you'd end up with a panicked opponent.

    Sickened: Why is this worth a 2d4 round reduction? The only thing this has over Shakened is the -2 weapon damage and it won't even stack with other fear effects. Make it a 1d4 round reduction at most, or don't even require a reduction. It's really not that much better

    Frightened: Save your self the action cost and extra save to bring down you duration by 4d4 rounds. This isn't bad, at worst you are trading one standard action for one of your opponent's turns (he has to flee with his actions) and at best you get 4 turns of reprieve. However, that's at level 9, chances are many of your opponents will be immune to this, and you only get a very short reprieve.

    Panicked: The only real benefit this has over Frightened is the random flight path and cowering when cornered. Otherwise, it performs the same function. To be honest, most of the time I'd rather just Frighten a valid enemy for the greater duration.

    Paralysis: This is a great status effect, but it's basically an upgrade from save or suck to save or lose and you get it so late that it's likely out of reach of most characters. Also, short duration, coupled with the fact that few monsters will actually be effected by this at the levels you get it make it rather lackluster like the other status effects.

    You definitely need to make Unnerving Gaze scale better, perhaps give it someway to bypass the immunities and/or up the duration.

    Kyton Apotheosis: That first level ability is good, probably too good. And It's the only really worthwhile thing that this archetype gives you. For the first few levels, this basically means that unless your opponent is extremely well-prepared, you aren't going to die. And even later on, getting access to silver and good weapons (or good spells) isn't going to be something that most enemies will have common access to. And past that, this ability gives you very mediocre returns. Cold Resistance is nifty enough, but Darkvision is easily gained by being the right race, and actually becoming an outsider isn't that big a deal at level 20. I highly suggest scaling up the abilities and moving Regeneration to 10th level at the very earliest, maybe later. Perhaps start out with some fast healing instead, perhaps fast healing 1 at 5th level.

    If it weren't for 2nd level regeneration, I'd call this very mediocre, otherwise it's almost broken for the first few levels and still extremely useful after that. But it's only from one ability, given far earlier than any other way to access it. One overpowered ability should not be the entirety of a Archetype.

    Despite regeneration being very strong, it still isn't worth losing your high-level spell slots, or the drastically limited domain choices. In the end, this definitely needs some adjustments.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu View Post
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  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Default Re: Cleric Archetype: Kyton Embodier

    I 100% agree with the analysis made by the poster above me. He was quite through and very precise, so much that I am having a hard time adding to it. So the only thing I can say is "Good luck w/ your archetipe".
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Cleric Archetype: Kyton Embodier

    I think you're overvaluing the Regeneration Fox. It doesn't come online till second level and caps out at Regeneration 10 at its highest level. While this cuts down on paying for wands and can be a boon for hit and run tactics, it doesn't matter if a dedicated HP hitter turns their attention on the Cleric and any caster worth their salt is going to be hitting him/her with things that flat out ignore the Regeneration. If memory serves, in discussions concerning Fast Healing and Regeneration, it was agreed that a creature needs to heal at least 30% it's health each round for the special qualities to be worth anything.

    Let's do some math then:

    1 0% (0/4.5)
    2 11% (1/9)
    3 7% (1/13.5)
    4 11% (2/18)
    5 9% (2/22.5)
    6 11% (3/27)
    7 10% (3/31.5)
    8 11% (4/36)
    9 10% (4/40.5)
    10 11% (5/45)
    11 10% (5/49.5)
    12 11% (6/54)
    13 10% (6/58.5)
    14 11% (7/63)
    15 10% (7/67.5)
    16 11% (8/72)
    17 10% (8/76.5)
    18 11% (9/81)
    19 11% (9/85.5)
    20 11% (10/90)

    This is assuming a Cleric with 10 Con and average HP each level, with nothing else taken into account and the percentages rounded up. The Regeneration ultimately peaks at 11% of the Cleric's health each round, which isn't enough to protect them.

  5. - Top - End - #5
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    Default Re: Cleric Archetype: Kyton Embodier

    I agree on a lot of the points provided. This is a very rough draft in essence, at this point at least. The insight helps a great deal, and I will be making adjustments. Unnerving gaze, scaling will need to be adjusted but first I'll need to look over what is appropriate at each level for that. Making it go through immunities would certainly be a boost, of course. Any and all input on exactly how to lay that out would be a god send. The spellcasting and domains will need adjustment, certainly. Precisely how, i don't know. One i considered was making it so one of their domains had to be the destruction domain with the torture subdomain, given the nature to the kytons. The bit regarding spiked chains is suitable thematically, though the language could use an adjustment perhaps. Darkvision, I don't think would hurt to make sooner but I was drawing from the model of advancement for it that one of the sorcerer bloodlines possessed. The resistance to cold, personally I believe to be alright as is, but I could certainly be wrong. The regeneration on the other hand. Does it need boosted, reduced, kept as is?

    I want this to be a fairly solid and balanced archetype. I want the trade offs to be fair, and the result to be flavorful.

  6. - Top - End - #6
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    Default Re: Cleric Archetype: Kyton Embodier

    I'd keep the Regeneration as is. The problem isn't this archetype, but the entire design philosophy behind Damage Reduction, Fast Healing and Regeneration (Energy Resistance as well, but they do have Energy Immunity being a thing).

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    Default Re: Cleric Archetype: Kyton Embodier

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanuki Tales View Post
    I think you're overvaluing the Regeneration Fox. It doesn't come online till second level and caps out at Regeneration 10 at its highest level. While this cuts down on paying for wands and can be a boon for hit and run tactics, it doesn't matter if a dedicated HP hitter turns their attention on the Cleric and any caster worth their salt is going to be hitting him/her with things that flat out ignore the Regeneration. If memory serves, in discussions concerning Fast Healing and Regeneration, it was agreed that a creature needs to heal at least 30% it's health each round for the special qualities to be worth anything.

    Let's do some math then:

    1 0% (0/4.5)
    2 11% (1/9)
    3 7% (1/13.5)
    4 11% (2/18)
    5 9% (2/22.5)
    6 11% (3/27)
    7 10% (3/31.5)
    8 11% (4/36)
    9 10% (4/40.5)
    10 11% (5/45)
    11 10% (5/49.5)
    12 11% (6/54)
    13 10% (6/58.5)
    14 11% (7/63)
    15 10% (7/67.5)
    16 11% (8/72)
    17 10% (8/76.5)
    18 11% (9/81)
    19 11% (9/85.5)
    20 11% (10/90)

    This is assuming a Cleric with 10 Con and average HP each level, with nothing else taken into account and the percentages rounded up. The Regeneration ultimately peaks at 11% of the Cleric's health each round, which isn't enough to protect them.

    Within the context of Pathfinder design, Fast Healing/Regeneration isn't given out (IIRC several developers have stated that at-will healing is frowned upon in Pathfinder; I don't always agree with them, but it's a decent baseline to work off of). Mainly, because they completely invalidate out of combat healing. Starting each combat at full health, saves money on resources and can drastically cut down on down time and it means that each fight starts fresh from a health.

    Also, fast healing doesn't cost any actions, which is huge. And while I'm sure that the 30% HP rule is fine as a generalization, I think that it's important to remember that in Pathfinder dying is (mostly) binary, either you are dead/dying or you are not. If that healing allows you to move from dying to not dying, it's had a significant impact, giving you a standard action you wouldn't have.

    After all, why do people buy Quicken Metamagic rods? To occasionally get an extra standard action or 3, and they are willing to pay through the nose to get it; the same concept applies here, fast healing can break the action economy. Also, Wands of CLW or Channel Energy take precious in-combat actions that don't have to be spent on a character who is dying with fast healing, auto stabilize and guaranteed consciousness in a few rounds is never a bad thing. (Yes, an opponent could simply kill a recovering character, but they could do that already, especially if there are healers around).

    I'm also thinking about this from the perspective of a PC.

    From say levels 2 - 6, The Kyton Embodier does not need to fear death, very few enemies will likely have good/silver weapons or spells on hand (assuming the GM isn't specifically gunning for the Kyton) dying isn't a concern. Even if they do, he can always hang back once he's realized this. My question is how many low level casters are likely to be packing heat that can overcome the Regenerations immunity from death without prior warning of the character? Is it fixable via a clever GM who makes sure his enemies can beat it? Sure but that's not the point, the point is that it's bad design. Also, how would they even know that they need very specific means to kill him?

    Now, if as a GM you are ok with players needing far fewer resources dedicated to healing and not being in danger of dying to foes unless they have silver or good weapons or good aligned spells, that's fine. But I don't think that attitude should be the baseline for balance. I think that it's not a well-balanced ability. Even if it isn't overpowered, it's not well designed. I have no problem with a bit of Fast Healing to save the character a few thousand gp on healing, I just think that regeneration is not an appropriate ability for a low-level character. In High-Op? Yeah, there are much worse things you can be doing than regeneration. Low-Op or Mid-Op is another story entirely and I think it's one worth considering.
    Last edited by 3WhiteFox3; 2014-03-31 at 03:33 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu View Post
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  8. - Top - End - #8
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    Default Re: Cleric Archetype: Kyton Embodier

    Fast healing that later becomes regeneration would make a lot of sense, given the differences between the two. The question for that becomes where is a good threshold on that point. 11th level makes sense to a point, but I'm just throwing that out there. What do you think?

    As for adjusting the other mechanics?

  9. - Top - End - #9
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    Default Re: Cleric Archetype: Kyton Embodier

    Quote Originally Posted by 3WhiteFox3 View Post
    Within the context of Pathfinder design, Fast Healing/Regeneration isn't given out (IIRC several developers have stated that at-will healing is frowned upon in Pathfinder).
    And we care what they think because...?

    They, for the most part, wouldn't know good game design if it came up and mugged them.

    Mainly, because they completely invalidate out of combat healing. Starting each combat at full health, saves money on resources and can drastically cut down on down time and it means that each fight starts fresh from a health.
    Yes, because wands really eat into the Wealth by Level.. 750g buys you 50d8+50 hit points, bare minimum, which is 275 hit points on average.


    Also, fast healing doesn't cost any actions, which is huge.
    Only if you're overestimating the value of that nonaction.

    And while I'm sure that the 30% HP rule is fine as a generalization, I think that it's important to remember that in Pathfinder dying is (mostly) binary, either you are dead/dying or you are not.
    You say this like it changed from 3.X.

    If that healing allows you to move from dying to not dying, it's had a significant impact, giving you a standard action you wouldn't have; why do people buy Quicken Metamagic rods? To occasionally get an extra standard action or 3, the same concept applies here, fast healing works outside the action economy. Also, Wands of CLW or Channel Energy take precious in-combat actions that don't have to be spent on a character who is dying with fast healing, auto stabilize and guaranteed consciousness in a few rounds is never a bad thing.
    It lets you auto-stabilize. That's....about it. Can that swing a combat? Probably; but outside certain types of games, the GM shouldn't be trying to purposely go for the TPK. And smart creatures are going to prioritize permanently killing or "killing" every few rounds something that they know will get back up. Things not intelligent enough to do this strategy were never too serious threats in the first place.

    I'm also thinking about this from the perspective of a PC.
    So am I.

    From say levels 2 - 6, The Kyton Embodier does not need to fear death, very few enemies will likely have good/silver weapons or spells on hand (assuming the GM isn't specifically gunning for the Kyton) dying isn't a concern. Even if they do, he can always hang back once he's realized this.
    So they just don't have to roll up a whole new character and bog down the game. Being able to eventually get back up doesn't stop them getting smacked down into "death" in the first place.

    My question is how many low level casters are likely to be packing heat that can overcome the Regenerations immunity from death without prior warning of the character?
    Why do they need to? From level 2 to 6, they're healing 1 to 3 hit points a round. A decent melee beatstick is going to make that pointless and there are plenty of SoL/SoS spells that didn't bother with hit points in the first place.

    Is it fixable via a clever GM who makes sure his enemies can beat it? Sure but that's not the point, the point is that it's bad design. Also, how would they even know that they need very specific means to kill him?
    I reiterate...they don't need to kill him/her.

    Now, if as a GM you are ok with players needing far fewer resources dedicated to healing and not being in danger of dying to foes unless they have silver or good weapons or good aligned spells, that's fine. But I don't think that attitude should be the baseline for balance. I think that it's not a well-balanced ability. Even if it isn't overpowered, it's not well designed. I have no problem with a bit of Fast Healing to save the character a few thousand gp on healing, I just think that regeneration is not an appropriate ability for a low-level character.
    The difference between Fast Healing and Regeneration is literally, "Ok, roll up a new character". It doesn't make the character more fearsome offensively and is incredibly oversold how much it improves their defenses. You just have to knock them down sufficiently into the negatives, bind their arms and legs and then put a tightly sealed bag over their head to indefinitely deal with them (if you read Regeneration as literally preventing death while it's active).

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