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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    furious Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    I am not sure how this will play with the offical settings, but I just started reading Night of the Hunter: Companions Codex, I by R A Salvatore, that is taking aprt int he new realms, and one of the characters who can almost be considered a choosen of Mielikki stated she was advised by her goddess that the various goblinkin and orcs are different then the 'good' races, and by large should be removed.

    This was pretty shocking to me, as I do not like the moral absolutism that brings and is a bit of a strike to me against the Forgotten Realms setting. Stating the the race and culture is pure evil and the drow are even redemable as a whole, but the goblinkin are not. The goblinkin are created to destroy, nothing more, to be a blight on the land. As told by Mielikki they are a scourge and challenge to those who would serve goodly purpose. They are not people, but monsters, full goblinkin do not have a conscience. Raising a lion would be safer then raising a goblin child.

    This was from around page 45 in the novel.

    It is good aligned to be a murder hobo against goblinoids, burning there villages and wiping them out. It makes what happened with Redcloak and his goblins in Order of the Stick seem a reflection of the offical settings.

    I am not sure how this will affect the official setting rules, and how it back dates to the prior editions however.
    Last edited by Kioras; 2014-04-03 at 08:09 AM.
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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    Yep. The moral of D&D: Goblinoids are all vicious, evil creatures, that must all be wiped out for the sake of the good races. This is why when people say that RC's plan is stupid I laugh inside.
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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    Quote Originally Posted by Codex View Post
    Yep. The moral of D&D: Goblinoids are all vicious, evil creatures, that must all be wiped out for the sake of the good races. This is why when people say that RC's plan is stupid I laugh inside.
    I prefer Eberrons take on goblinkin, making them another potential player race or a race with actual sensible motives, not just lol evil little xp packets.

    Placing a 'normal' race at the same point as demons and devils is just sloppy world building at this point in time in the settings.
    There is a mistaken proverb that tells us that those who are ignorant of the past are condemned to repeat it. In fact, they're lucky if they're allowed to repeat it. More probably, they're condemned to something even worse than the past. This is doubly true of those who believe that their ignorance some how makes them morally superior to those who don't share it.

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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kioras View Post
    It is good aligned to be a murder hobo against goblinoids, burning there villages and wiping them out. It makes what happened with Redcloak and his goblins in Order of the Stick seem a reflection of the offical settings.
    That's because it is. Redcloak's story is a challenge to the classical D&D paradigm that sapient races designated as "evil" and "monsters" are only fit for extermination.

    The mention of drow is also amusing, because it showcases the glaring double standard here - drow are also evil, serving a crazy spider demon-goddess, but they're the "cool" evil race that can be redeemed, or at least produce edgy anti-heroes. And even if not, they're actually treated like people, if evil people. Goblinoids and orcs are just dumb, ugly cannon fodder.
    Last edited by Morty; 2014-04-01 at 09:25 AM.
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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    The mention of drow is also amusing, because it showcases the glaring double standard here - drow are also evil, serving a crazy spider demon-goddess, but they're the "cool" evil race that can be redeemed, or at least produce edgy anti-heroes. And even if not, they're actually treated like people, if evil people. Goblinoids and orcs are just dumb, ugly cannon fodder.
    Another interpretation would be to look at goblinoids as talking crocodiles: Simply inherently aggressive. In the same vein as a crocodile cannot be domesticated, a goblinoid raised by humans would still be violent and unempathetic because that's just their nature, whereas drow are generally evil because they're raised in a terrible, nasty culture.

    If one WANTS to include moral grey areas in a campaign there is nothing wrong with that, but since we are talking about fictional nonhuman beings I think my version has merit as well.
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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeivar View Post
    Another interpretation would be to look at goblinoids as talking crocodiles: Simply inherently aggressive. In the same vein as a crocodile cannot be domesticated, a goblinoid raised by humans would still be violent and unempathetic because that's just their nature
    At which point you should stop pretending they're sapient beings with an alignment. Crocodiles are Neutral, just like other animals - beings which are hard-wired into being aggressive like crocodiles shouldn't be treated differently because they walk on two legs.
    Last edited by Morty; 2014-04-01 at 02:13 PM.
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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    Considering that he wrote Dark Mirror (short story with a nonevil goblin) and The Orc King (in which the orcs finally make peace with the rest of the North, and in flash-forward scenes Drizzt is seen fighting groups that commit hate crimes against orcs) I am surprised at the idea that all this would be dumped for 5e.

    Maybe this character will turn out to be being deceived and manipulated by someone posing as their deity?
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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post

    Maybe this character will turn out to be being deceived and manipulated by someone posing as their deity?
    That would be a pretty clever twist.
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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Considering that he wrote Dark Mirror (short story with a nonevil goblin) and The Orc King (in which the orcs finally make peace with the rest of the North, and in flash-forward scenes Drizzt is seen fighting groups that commit hate crimes against orcs) I am surprised at the idea that all this would be dumped for 5e.

    Maybe this character will turn out to be being deceived and manipulated by someone posing as their deity?
    I am pretty sure this is a retcon that is coming directly from Wizards. The character in question, learned all the information while in a personal demi-plane setup personally by the goddess.

    Wizards probably decided they wanted less grey in the forgotten realms, and maybe a bunch of good lead hooks for adventures in the silver march's area.

    I don't personally like it, especially when I read her speaking completely seriously about wiping them out to the last. It may read to some as less strict then I took it however.

    I guess that makes murder hobo'n all goblinkin and orcs fully acceptable way for adventures to get xp.
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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kioras View Post
    I guess that makes murder hobo'n all goblinkin and orcs fully acceptable way for adventures to get xp.
    This has been the standard for D&D and its so called "Heroic" fantasy. I don't think WotC is going to alienate all of the players that enjoy playing murderhobos by making changes like that?

    As for Redcloak and what happened to him, that is the standard presumed default by the game and its designers. Its different in Eberron only with Murderhobo-ing against Goblins being business as usual elsewhere.

    As for being "Heroic", its frankly not.
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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    Well to be fair I can't think of many examples of non-evil goblins in the forgotten realms setting and also it could be that they want to simplify things for next and remove the ethical dilemma of fighting goblins. Also if you can't kill goblins what else are first level adventurers supposed to fight. To clarify I'm not condoning genocide or anything I'm just saying sometimes it's nice to have a simple adventure with good guys and bad guys with out thinking too much about it.
    Last edited by 12owlbears; 2014-04-01 at 09:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    That's because it is. Redcloak's story is a challenge to the classical D&D paradigm that sapient races designated as "evil" and "monsters" are only fit for extermination.

    The mention of drow is also amusing, because it showcases the glaring double standard here - drow are also evil, serving a crazy spider demon-goddess, but they're the "cool" evil race that can be redeemed, or at least produce edgy anti-heroes. And even if not, they're actually treated like people, if evil people. Goblinoids and orcs are just dumb, ugly cannon fodder.
    The difference between Drow and Goblinoids: Drow have the potential to be attractive. Goblinoids don't, ergo they must all be exterminated.
    Last edited by Codex; 2014-04-01 at 09:11 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #13
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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    Quote Originally Posted by Codex View Post
    The difference between Drow and Goblinoids: Drow have the potential to be attractive. Goblinoids don't, ergo they must all be exterminated.
    Obviously the Forgotten Realms suffers under a tyranny of the Beautiful. If your race cannot be considered comely to players, into the villain xp bin you go. You are now XP to go.

    Yeah, Forgotten Realms is an old setting, that applies the old evil is ugly trope. The thing that gets me as a player and reader is Good aligned characters being completely willing to exterminate another sentient race.

    It does make you wonder how these evil fodder races have survived so long, without regular purging of the population's, especially when they are portrayed as dumb, evil and unable to cooperate.
    There is a mistaken proverb that tells us that those who are ignorant of the past are condemned to repeat it. In fact, they're lucky if they're allowed to repeat it. More probably, they're condemned to something even worse than the past. This is doubly true of those who believe that their ignorance some how makes them morally superior to those who don't share it.

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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    At which point you should stop pretending they're sapient beings with an alignment. Crocodiles are Neutral, just like other animals - beings which are hard-wired into being aggressive like crocodiles shouldn't be treated differently because they walk on two legs.
    I do actually like the idea that non humans are actually non humans not just humans with green skin. If that means there moral code is inherently at odds with our own so be it. A species could be intelligent but completely incapable of empathy in regards to members of other species. It might just get a huge endorphin rush when it sees something weaker then it get hurt. You are confusing lack of morality with lack of intelligence. You could argue there not really evil becuase they don't have a choice but by that logic the undead who Must kill to live isn't evil either and in a philosophical sense I might agree but for the purposes of smite evil and detect evil I cant.

    The problem with doing it for say forgotten realms is almost all the monsters are just humans with pointed ears (or whatever) very few nonhuman races have as much cultural diversity as real world humans. An elf has vastly more in common with a dwarf then I have with an aztec. Since goblins and orcs have not been portrayed as being any thing worse then evil humans deciding they are completely irredeemable falls flat.

    So in conclusion im not inherently opposed to a sapient that is inherent evil as defined by a humans moral code. But goblins in forgotten realms is not a good place to do it.
    Last edited by awa; 2014-04-01 at 10:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Considering that he wrote Dark Mirror (short story with a nonevil goblin) and The Orc King (in which the orcs finally make peace with the rest of the North, and in flash-forward scenes Drizzt is seen fighting groups that commit hate crimes against orcs) I am surprised at the idea that all this would be dumped for 5e.

    Maybe this character will turn out to be being deceived and manipulated by someone posing as their deity?
    You took the words right out of my mouth! If it was another author, I would just shrug, but RA Salvatore has a track record of non-evil goblinoids in his writing, so this seems quite out of place.
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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    Quote Originally Posted by 12owlbears View Post
    Well to be fair I can't think of many examples of non-evil goblins in the forgotten realms setting and also it could be that they want to simplify things for next and remove the ethical dilemma of fighting goblins. Also if you can't kill goblins what else are first level adventurers supposed to fight. To clarify I'm not condoning genocide or anything I'm just saying sometimes it's nice to have a simple adventure with good guys and bad guys with out thinking too much about it.
    This is ultimately the answer as to why goblins and orcs are pure evil and must be killed.

    They were created to fill a niche. It wouldn't be fun to kill nothing but unintelligent monsters. The players need an enemy who can organize, think, and react. Something that can be interesting to fight. The problem is killing people creates a moral quandary. So 'evil races' were created to fill the intelligent cannon fodder niche. Goblins and Orcs are bad guys because sometimes you need a bad guy. An clearly defined bad guy is useful for action set pieces.

    Sure it means as a race they are kind of shallow, but they don't exist to be a masterpiece of writing. They exist to be something the Paladin can stab without worry. If good characters had to debate the ethics of every fight D&D wouldn't be as fun. Sometimes you just need a big dumb fight.

    If they turned goblins and orcs into proper races something else would have to be created to take their place.

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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    I'm not certain a mook race is actually necessary I do just fine with bandits and cultists in some of my more human focused games.

    The only thing you need to do to make wiping out a group of goblins or orcs okay is make the ones your fighting bad guys. This isnt a goblin village its a bandit camp which happens to be populated by goblins which is also why there are no women and children there.

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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    Quote Originally Posted by Codex View Post
    The difference between Drow and Goblinoids: Drow have the potential to be attractive. Goblinoids don't, ergo they must all be exterminated.
    Yeah. Once the possibility of a busty drow maiden in a skin-tight catsuit is introduced, you can bet any money that she'll be a player-available option before long.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kioras View Post
    Obviously the Forgotten Realms suffers under a tyranny of the Beautiful. If your race cannot be considered comely to players, into the villain xp bin you go. You are now XP to go.

    Yeah, Forgotten Realms is an old setting, that applies the old evil is ugly trope. The thing that gets me as a player and reader is Good aligned characters being completely willing to exterminate another sentient race.

    It does make you wonder how these evil fodder races have survived so long, without regular purging of the population's, especially when they are portrayed as dumb, evil and unable to cooperate.
    The "good is beautiful, evil is ugly" paradigm is as old as dirt and deeply entrenched in human psyche. Beautiful, noble elves exterminating ugly, stupid and evil goblins (or orcs, or however else you call the conveniently evil and weak race) is just one of its iterations.
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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    This whole thing just strikes me as wrong and unfitting with the setting. Especially given that the whole idea of ugly humanoid races being automatically evil is completely and utterly at odds with many statements that have come before.

    We are talking about the same setting which canonically has good-aligned undead, and I'm not talking the occasional attractive vampires here and there but out-and-out rotting corpse zombies and good-aligned liches. It's the setting where some of the first heroic characters introduced actually wound up including a saurial paladin.

    It's especially unfitting when you think back upon 2nd edition's handling of what happens when a Forgotten Realms nature goddess (Eldath, in this case) interacts with orcs. In that edition, those orcs wound up worshipping the good goddess and became peaceful farmers and hunter-gatherers known as the ondontis who were so in touch with nature that they became 'reverse drow', able to cast various semi-druidic spell-like abilities, only taking up arms when they needed to. They unfortunately became subsequent targets of the Zhentarim and many of them were enslaved, creating a plot-hook by which you could introduce good-aligned orcs while having evil-aligned humans in the same place.

    In this new 5th edition, apparently the response to orcs from a nature deity is 'KILL IT WITH FIRE!'


    Yeah, this is going to be filed next to 'Wall of the Faithless' in the long list of things that I personally tend to ignore.

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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    While I still haven't bought the appropriate books, didn't the [mostly good] gods of OOTS create goblins (and other greenskins) as "tasty little balls of xp"? I can't tell how much the encourage the continual slaughter of goblins (I haven't noticed any prophets being told to spread the word of NPC race equality), but I'm certain they are aware that such things are not good (the presumed fall of paladins while slaughtering goblin villages should be obvious).

    Another odd side effect of this is that Paladins are held to a considerably higher standard than the gods. Unless the original [creator] gods originally fell after the creation of the greenskins (for xp purposes), I will stand with my claim that paladins are typically more good (higher on the alignment chart) than gods. -Note this isn't necessarily true: Miko presumably didn't commit an evil act before she fell, but she was certainly drawn and written as if she was borderline LN.

    All this is ignoring the colossal evil that would be involved if a god made the concerted effort to lead a genocide. If a nature goddess is simply telling a follower "kill these goblins", she may be looking at a much bigger picture and wanting goblins removed from what she sees as a particular garden. If she tells her followers (presumably starting with the priesthood) to "kill *all* the goblins" (or even "kill any goblin you see"), she obviously belongs in the deep end of the alignment chart.

    The real problem is that D&D evolved from tabletop wargames. The idea that "alignment" was pretty much the same as "red" and "blue" teams in a wargame shows up occasionally and causes all sorts of problems.

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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    Quote Originally Posted by 12owlbears View Post
    Also if you can't kill goblins what else are first level adventurers supposed to fight
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    On a more general note, Tolkien himself based the appearance of his orcs on the human people that were the farthest away from the english ideal of beauty at that time, the mongols IIRC.
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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    Even Tolkien thought always evil orcs was a bad idea. We also do not see them outside of a war setting. They may be cruel and brutish, but they are hunted no differently than the human allies of Mordor.

    Yeah, the village-burning thing is a bit of moral dissonance from a "good" source... I do hope there's a twist to that at some point. Because otherwise RAS has set up a scene for no other reason than to show that the good guys are a bunch of jerks.
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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    Quote Originally Posted by wumpus View Post
    While I still haven't bought the appropriate books, didn't the [mostly good] gods of OOTS create goblins (and other greenskins) as "tasty little balls of xp"? I can't tell how much the encourage the continual slaughter of goblins (I haven't noticed any prophets being told to spread the word of NPC race equality), but I'm certain they are aware that such things are not good (the presumed fall of paladins while slaughtering goblin villages should be obvious).

    Another odd side effect of this is that Paladins are held to a considerably higher standard than the gods. Unless the original [creator] gods originally fell after the creation of the greenskins (for xp purposes), I will stand with my claim that paladins are typically more good (higher on the alignment chart) than gods. -Note this isn't necessarily true: Miko presumably didn't commit an evil act before she fell, but she was certainly drawn and written as if she was borderline LN.

    All this is ignoring the colossal evil that would be involved if a god made the concerted effort to lead a genocide. If a nature goddess is simply telling a follower "kill these goblins", she may be looking at a much bigger picture and wanting goblins removed from what she sees as a particular garden. If she tells her followers (presumably starting with the priesthood) to "kill *all* the goblins" (or even "kill any goblin you see"), she obviously belongs in the deep end of the alignment chart.

    The real problem is that D&D evolved from tabletop wargames. The idea that "alignment" was pretty much the same as "red" and "blue" teams in a wargame shows up occasionally and causes all sorts of problems.
    Using OotS as an example isn't appropriate because the setting doesn't have universal, empirical good and evil, they have it as defined by the gods who created their verse. So a Paladin who slaughters goblins doesn't fall not because they didn't commit an evil act, but because they didn't commit an evil act as defined by the gods.

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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kioras View Post
    I prefer Eberrons take on goblinkin, making them another potential player race or a race with actual sensible motives, not just lol evil little xp packets.

    Placing a 'normal' race at the same point as demons and devils is just sloppy world building at this point in time in the settings.
    There are some lovely Dragonshard articles on goblinoids. I hope this translates over to Eberron well in 5e.

    Quote Originally Posted by 12owlbears View Post
    Well to be fair I can't think of many examples of non-evil goblins in the forgotten realms setting and also it could be that they want to simplify things for next and remove the ethical dilemma of fighting goblins. Also if you can't kill goblins what else are first level adventurers supposed to fight. To clarify I'm not condoning genocide or anything I'm just saying sometimes it's nice to have a simple adventure with good guys and bad guys with out thinking too much about it.
    Okay, here are my notes on the subject of unintelligent XP fodder:

    Aberration
    • Gibbering horrors from Beyond. Some may be benign and tolerate humans enough for cults to interact with them in a non-hostile manner.
    • Beasts that have been mutated so thoroughly that they possess entirely supernatural physiology. This might be as simple as two creatures fused together, or may include strange beasts like rust monsters.


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    • Evil influences can warp the minds of normal animals, making them hostile.
    • Dinosaurs, full stop.
    • Dire animals fit in with dinosaurs, but can also be the result of rampant nature magic.
    • Normally neutral beasts can be magically commanded to serve divine spellcasters or magical sentients in coordinated fashion. Nothing is quite so terrifying as a thousand rodents ruining the bowstrings and provisions of an army during the night.


    Construct
    • Golems can be made of anything. Cheap or hodgeodge materials should be more common than stone and metal. More abstract things could be possible, like darkness or sound. It's important to note that most golems are humanoids of various size with little to no special abilities, their composition only improves their toughness and melee attacks.
    • Golems are a no-nonsense way for a wizard to defend his home.
    • Old battlefields may host war machines that are still operational.
    • A half-golem who receives enough golem parts would count as a construct. Some of this type of construct may be nothing more than a brain in a jar.


    Dragon
    • Many unintelligent dragons like wyvrens are highly territorial apex predators.
    • Dragons can sire half-dragon beasts to use as their servants, or generally make the area around their lair more dangerous.
    • The legend of dragon-soldiers growing from dragon teeth could refer to unintelligent flesh-constructs.


    Elemental
    • Unintelligent elementals usually take forms analogous to normal animals, like fire snakes or lightning sharks. More dangerous unintelligent elementals can be fluid shapeshifters.
    • Elementals are graceful, natural creatures. They are often part of larger ecosystems. They often have sophistocated behavior even if they are not sapient.
    • The most basic elementals are made of earth, fire, air, or water.
    • Exotic elementals can be composed of nonstandard elements or even abstract concepts, such as crystals, darkness, electricity, or blood.


    Fey
    • Unintelligent fey are usually animals with otherworldly traits, very similar to outsiders (though the difference between an intelligent feybeast and a sapient one may only be a matter of age). They are often fey simply from their connection to their masters.
    • Feybeasts are animals weak to cold iron possessed of abilities of flight, teleportation, and/or enchantment.
    • Plant-spirits can also be fey, having many of the traits of the plant they are connected to (poison, thorns, etc).


    Magical Beast
    • The most simple magical beasts are normal animals with one magical trait and some cosmetic changes. They can have some kind of elemental power light spitting lightning, or have access to more exotic or powerful abilities.
    • Some magical beasts are graceful hybrids made from two or more animals. Other than their anatomy, they're still normal animals. They might be notable for the magical properties of their fur, feathers, horn, bone, etc.


    Ooze
    • Oozes can be natural creatures that decompose things. Only under rare circumstances do they grow large enough to be a threat to a person.
    • Oozes mostly are dangerous because of their acidic touch and natural resilience. More magical oozes may have elemental abilities or grow inside their victims' flesh.
    • Most oozes become large enough to kill due to magical or alchemical influence.
    • A mad alchemist could intentionally create oozes for research and profit.
    • Quasi-domesticated oozes could be used as biological weapons.


    Outsider
    • Fiendish version of animals make for good slaves of organized Baatezu, or corrupt creatures influenced by the aftermath of a rampaging Tanar'ri. Some of these might be shapeshifting creatures such as imps.
    • Half-fiendish creatures inherit immense power. Unlike summoned outsiders, they have no planar limitation on their powers and cannot be banished.
    • Baatezu might not be intelligent, they may just be eyes, ears, and mouths for their conniving masters.
    • Tanar'ri do not need to be intelligent to be dangerous. They are simple rampaging monsters.
    • Don't forget extra horns, spikes, and elemental breath for added measure.


    Plant
    • The standard carnivorous plant is a hazard due to its ability to immobilize its prey and use poison. These may be best-used as environmental complications to larger encounters.
    • A carnivorous plant needs to be rooted in a favorable position to be successful. Usually in an enclosed space where it can't be sniped.
    • A druid could create mobile plant-creatures in any shape he wished. Attached to animal skeletons, built as large masses with seige weapons embedded, etc etc.
    • Carnivorous fungus are fun too.
    • Mobile plants may have useful medicinal or alchemical properties.


    Undead
    • Most of the varieties of undead have some circumstances that cause them to rise. These are often because of crimes committed in life, and/or negative emotions at the time of death.
    • Undead can be formed from ambient negative emotions or evil influence. One type of undead may be a mass of corpses fused together into a single monstrosity.
    • D&D ghouls are classic virus-zombies.


    Vermin
    • Giant insects are very straightforward wild animals with a decent reason to eat humans (or ignore them, as the case may be).
    • Fits in with dinosaurs for a lost world setting.
    • Bear in mind that most insects have very specialized adaptations and abilities, especially in social insects.
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  25. - Top - End - #25
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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomar_of_Uointer View Post

    Okay, here are my notes on the subject of unintelligent XP fodder
    And I'm sure that given enough time I could come up with reasons why killing those things is unethical. Goblins make good antagonists for early adventures because their iconic and their not too challenging, constructs oozes and undead all have enough immunities and special qualities that I don't think I would send them against a level 1-2 party and by the time the party is the appropriate level to start fighting outsiders and aberrations they've probably already killed hundreds of goblins/orcs/whatever. On the subject of gods this doesn't really make the genocide thing ok but I'm pretty sure the goblin gods say the same thing about the other races.

  26. - Top - End - #26
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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    there are cr 1 outsiders and aberrations
    and human zombies are basically only dangerous at level 1 or 2
    Last edited by awa; 2014-04-02 at 09:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    There are a couple of ways around the whole situation of orcs-and-goblins-as-early-level-adventuring-fodder.

    First and foremost; don't use them as tasty little balls of experience points. If you want to have your party battling goblins, give them more of a reason than 'because they're goblins'. This specific group of goblins is evil and going around doing evil and nasty things to people, so it's basically defending innocents from evil. The other victims could also be non-evil goblins or orcs, to drive the point home. The only goblin babies are the ones you're saving from being stabbed.

    The second thing is, you don't technically need to use goblins. You can use evil humans in the same position, and indeed still use non-evil orcs and goblins as victims of their actions. This can also apply if you're working with a mostly-evil adventuring party. You can give your players lots of opportunities to do evil things by using non-evil orcs and goblins as their targets.



    But the idea presented in Night of the Hunter is so barbaric that I'm almost tempted to abandon the Forgotten Realms because of it.

  28. - Top - End - #28
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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    Quote Originally Posted by 12owlbears View Post
    And I'm sure that given enough time I could come up with reasons why killing those things is unethical. Goblins make good antagonists for early adventures because their iconic and their not too challenging, constructs oozes and undead all have enough immunities and special qualities that I don't think I would send them against a level 1-2 party and by the time the party is the appropriate level to start fighting outsiders and aberrations they've probably already killed hundreds of goblins/orcs/whatever. On the subject of gods this doesn't really make the genocide thing ok but I'm pretty sure the goblin gods say the same thing about the other races.
    Or maybe, here's a crazy thought - you accept that fighting sapient beings will always carry certain moral connotations and stop bending over backwards to remove them. If good or neutral-aligned PCs fight them, it's because they threaten them and/or innocent people and there's no other choice but to fight. Or maybe there is, in which case it may be a good thing to do to pursue those options. You don't need to cook up disturbing justifications for why murdering certain species is always good and just.
    Last edited by Morty; 2014-04-03 at 05:23 AM.
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  29. - Top - End - #29
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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kioras View Post
    I am not sure how this will play with the offical settings, but I just started reading Night of the Hunter: Companions Codex, I by R A Salvatore, that is taking aprt int he new realms, and one of the characters who can almost be considered a choosen of Mielikki stated she was advised by her goddess that the various goblinkin and orcs are different then the 'good' races, and by large should be removed.

    This was pretty shocking to me, as I do not like the moral absolutism that brings and is a bit of a strike to me against the Forgotten Realms setting. Stating the the race and culture is pure evil and the drow are even redemable as a whole, but the goblinkin are not. The goblinkin are created to destroy, nothing more, to be a blight on the land. As told by Mielikki they are a scourge and challenge to those who would serve goodly purpose. They are not people, but monsters, full goblinkin do not have a conscience. Raising a lion would be safer then raising a goblin child.

    This was from around page 45 in the novel.

    It is good aligned to be a murder hobo against goblinoids, burning there villages and wiping them out. It makes what happened with Redcloak and his goblins in Order of the Stick seem a reflection of the offical settings.

    I am not sure how this will affect the official setting rules, and how it back dates to the prior editions however.

    Yep. Goblins aren't people. That's not a racists statement saying that someone who is a person shouldn't be considered one; it's acknowledging that by the default rules Faerun was based on, goblin kin are literally evil, malformed vermin.

    It's not a thing people like, because it's not an idea that many even grok as being paradigmatic rather than a moral quandary. This is from the paradigm of a world which allows bipedal creatures to lack sapience but still present it, which allows actual, physical evil to exist and seemingly behave like a creature, and which relies as much on mysticism as science. It's perfectly valid to throw that out. Just ask yourself; how valid is this proclamation? Is it possible for a chrch to disagree with itself? Is it possible for a god to be wrong, or have an agenda?


    "All goblinkin are vermin" can be a perfectly rational expression of a scientific fact. It can also be a terribly biased view into the mind of a speciesist genocidal jerk. Having a canonical answer has never before stopped DMs from deciding themselves, and there's no reason to think it will now. :)

  30. - Top - End - #30
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    Default Re: Forgotten Realms, genocide of goblinkin(and orcs) encouraged by good gods?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    That's because it is. Redcloak's story is a challenge to the classical D&D paradigm that sapient races designated as "evil" and "monsters" are only fit for extermination.
    Indeed.

    Given how much FR fiction hammered home the notion that goblinoids aren't all murderously malevolent - and that a lot of their behaviour can be put down to culture rather than "inherent nature" - this is a huge step backward.
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