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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Games with Good Combo Systems?

    So I'm currently designing my own RPG system and one thing I definitely want in it is the ability to chain powers and attacks together into combos on a player's turn. I'm unsure how to implement this though. I want it to be fairly simple to learn and keep track of, so that it doesn't bog combat down more than is necessary. Are there any systems out there that do this well? I know about Exalted but what else?
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    Default Re: Games with Good Combo Systems?

    Exalted could be safely considered the go-to example for how not to handle comboing powers, so take a good look at it and do the opposite.

    Seriously, though... hm. The original Conspiracy X had a Combo system, which was mostly an AP system where you got X actions in a turn, and each action cost X points, and your fighting style determined what moves you could know beyond "punch, kick and stab". The old Fallout PnP did too, but I would hesitate to call it "good", or even "functional".

    Marvel Heroic was really good at letting players chain their attacks into each others' attacks to overwhelm a superior foe, but I feel like that's not really what you're looking for.
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    Default Re: Games with Good Combo Systems?

    Quote Originally Posted by Friv View Post
    Marvel Heroic was really good at letting players chain their attacks into each others' attacks to overwhelm a superior foe, but I feel like that's not really what you're looking for.
    Funny you should mention that, since I'm probably gonna blatantly rip off that initiative system, and it does make for exciting teamwork combos. However, I want characters to be able to combos on their own as well. AP could work... though adding another point pool to keep track of could be a hassle.

    Also yeah, I don't like how Exalted did it
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    Default Re: Games with Good Combo Systems?

    I think the thing to decide is, what exactly makes a particular effect a 'combo' instead of just a pre-baked maneuver/power/ability?

    For example, is the mechanical draw of 'combos' the fact that you can alter them on the fly to suit the situation by modifying the structure of the combo? Or is it the idea that you are rewarded for the meta-goal of being able to cause a certain chain of events to occur un-interrupted? Or is it something else, such as a system designed to encourage inter-PC cooperation?

    For the versatility case, you could basically have a pool of action points each round, with the restriction that some types of actions are 'primary' and you can only do one 'primary' action in a given round. You can then spend your action points in various ways in order to modify your primary action. So if your primary action is 'attack that guy', maybe if you spend 2AP you can get a bonus to hit him (which, thematically, involves a bunch of feinting strikes not designed to hurt but designed to get him to lower his guard or something like that); or you could spend a few AP to boost damage (building up for a single big strike); or a few AP designed to make it so that if you do hit your main target he slams into other nearby enemies and does partial damage to them too...

    If the idea is the multi-round meta-goal thing, then instead you'd want the player to pre-define specific combos or sets of events which, if the player can make them occur in order, give escalating benefits. For example, the character gains a bonus to hit or damage each subsequent round they attack only the same target; or they gain a different bonus for each subsequent round they use a particular move, or a particular move sequence. In a system like this, you'd want there to be a couple very different types of attacks that characters can employ (and for bonus points, generalize these categories so they can cover ranged, spells, etc, etc) - the reason is, you want to balance the downside of having to use a specific chain against the upsides associated with fine-tuning each individual attack to be suitable for the moment. So here's an example - lets say a 'Fast' attack lets you attack and then immediately move; a 'Trick' attack is anything that lets you attack and (in general) apply some sort of short-term debuff to the opponent; a 'Strong' attack lets you attack for increased damage/effect; a 'Defensive' attack is anything that lets you attack and (in general) apply some sort of short-term buff to yourself. So generally doing two Trick attacks in a row would be at cross-purposes, you want to debuff and then do big damage - so you allow a 'double-Trick-Strong' combo where as long as you're following the combo line you get other benefits to counter-balance that fact, and then the player is making a decision between the local choice of 'what attack do I use right now?' and the global choice of 'if I can complete this combo chain it'll be really good'.

    If the idea is party cooperation, allow the combo chains from the above example to work between PCs. So PC1 makes a 'Trick' attack, PC2 makes a second 'Trick' attack, PC3 makes a 'Strong' attack, and the combo chain's benefit is applied to all participants.

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    Default Re: Games with Good Combo Systems?

    Here's one simple idea, possibly not balanced though...

    Combos let you break the normal action economy by using several abilities in sequence in one turn: with a few caveats:


    *Can't use the exact same ability/attack twice.
    * You have to hit with each attack in order for them to progress.

    For example, you could use attacks A, B, and C in a combo as well as ordering them like BCA, ACB or CBA, but you couldn't use AAB.
    Likewise in order to complete combo ABC, You would have to hit with attack A, in order to use attack B and then hit with Attack B in order to use attack C.

    Normal limitations would apply, like being in range for each ability.

    In addition, if using this system there should be a bunch of other mechanic surrounding it, such as abilities that let you prematurely end combos, other that make them more accurate, or possibly even "finishing moves" that can only be used at the end of combos but hit very hard.
    Last edited by Doorhandle; 2014-04-04 at 06:17 AM.
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    Default Re: Games with Good Combo Systems?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doorhandle View Post
    Here's one simple idea, possibly not balanced though...

    Combos let you break the normal action economy by using several abilities in sequence in one turn: with a few caveats:

    *Can't use the exact same ability/attack twice.
    * You have to hit with each attack in order for them to progress.

    For example, you could use attacks A, B, and C in a combo as well as ordering them like BCA, ACB or CBA, but you couldn't use AAB.
    Likewise in order to complete combo ABC, You would have to hit with attack A, in order to use attack B and then hit with Attack B in order to use attack C.

    Normal limitations would apply, like being in range for each ability.

    In addition, if using this system there should be a bunch of other mechanic surrounding it, such as abilities that let you prematurely end combos, other that make them more accurate, or possibly even "finishing moves" that can only be used at the end of combos but hit very hard.
    Yeah I was thinking something similar to this, as it plays into the "versatile combos" style that NichG described. I was thinking a further limitation is only being able to use like 2 or 3 in sequence, perhaps gaining more as you get stronger. I might go with this, but I'm kind of looking for a more Positive combo system. This idea works, but it's like "you can do this thing but here are a bunch of restrictions that you have to remember." I'm just wondering if there's a more elegant/simple way of writing it out. Also, finishing moves that can only be used in a combo are definitely a thing :)

    I'll probably end up going with this, since there's not a whole lot of precedent in TTRPGs.
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    Default Re: Games with Good Combo Systems?

    True, limiting it to 3 sounds good, with perhaps a few abilities able to break that.
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    Default Re: Games with Good Combo Systems?

    Street Fighter: The RPG has a pretty simple combat system, once you understand the combat system.

    Every move you have is written on a maneuver card. At the start of each round, everyone picks a card and sets it face down. The Referee starts counting up from zero, when he gets to the Speed of your move you have to declare it. Anyone with a faster move can interrupt your move, even between moving and attacking. The Speed of your move is determined by your Dex plus the speed modifier of the move: a short kick is faster than a roundhouse kick.

    Combos are just pre-set lists of moves, once you get to the second (and third) move in the combo they come off 2 points faster, which is significant.

    More generically, that means one option for combos is to allow the future pieces of it after the first to happen faster. This is a little more annoying in a system where everyone rolls initiative once and it stays for the entire battle.

    You could also do some sort of 'Combo Point' system where every maneuver costs (or gives) a certain number of combo points, and acting more than once in a round requires increasing costs of combo points. Maybe the first move in a round is always +1 point, second is -1, third is -3, fourth is -5, and so on. Or reduce all those numbers by 1, and blocking is +3 (as long as it is first in the round), moving is +2, jab is +1 and so on as more powerful moves start costing points. You'd have to fiddle with a lot of math, but it could lead to Dragon Ball Z style fights where people start with smaller attacks and build up to larger ones. This might be more fiddly than you want, but it wouldn't be too bad if everyone knew the base rules, the modifiers of their moves, and had a pile of tokens they could give and get back.

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    Default Re: Games with Good Combo Systems?

    I recommend looking at video games for high-level inspiration. If there's anything you can learn from Street Fighter or Soul Caliber, it's that forcing combos is bad and encouraging experimentation is good. I recommend that you let your player spam their abilities if they want, but make it so each ability has a weakness or two, and the players' desires to circumvent their weaknesses will lead to them discovering the combos.

    Here's a list of common combo-able abilities:
    • High-damage attacks with a delay (enough to dodge).
    • Attacks that deal damage and let you move.
    • Attacks that stun or deal high damage but require precise positioning.
    • DBZ-style powerups that give you a delayed boost of power but require you not to take a certain about of damage.
    • Shields against ranged attacks
    • Ranged attacks that inflict soft crowd control (combos with itself too)
    Last edited by Just to Browse; 2014-04-06 at 09:04 PM.
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    Default Re: Games with Good Combo Systems?

    You'd probably want a look into Fight! RPG
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    Default Re: Games with Good Combo Systems?

    Double Cross has a combo element, whereby you can stack the effects of multiple powers on one another. It isn't "I combo Move X into Move Y", though.
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    Default Re: Games with Good Combo Systems?

    I don't know if it can help you, but i have designed more than one system that included a few combos, but i discarded one before it was too complex, and only ended up using a piece of the second.

    The first system had spells that could combo into each other.
    I had a table with possible effects that you could create if you comboed these spells.
    It is very much inspired from Magicka and some from Guild Wars 2.

    For example, if you cast a fire spell and and ice spell at the same initiative count, you would create a fog effect.
    If you casted an earth-spell and a fireball you would create a small mini-volcano that spits fireballs for a few rounds.
    If you casted a water spell at an enemy and a cold spell on the same enemy at the same initiative, you may be able to freeze him.

    Also, the basic "attack" spell for the system was a magical line.
    Using maptools, i was able to make a characters fire off one "lines" of energy.
    When the two lines met, a new line of a different energy type came into existence; its angle was computed automatically based on the source lines angles; its effects where based on the source lines (water and cold creating ice, and so on)
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    Eventually i discarded it as too complicated to resolve. It was too hard to aim correctly and the function was kinda bugged sometimes.

    I created a different system which worked a little better.
    Step one was removing some normal conditions from the game; things that caused "stunned", "shaken", "fatigued" "exhausted" "bleeding" and a few more were completely removed from the base game.
    Then, different special attacks were made to cause such effects (with different magnitudes), but only based on certain conditions. Some attacks were only usable (effectively) if the enemy was under some other condition.
    For example:

    You had attack A which, if used againt a flanked enemy, would give him "bleeding". You could use attack A at any point in your iterative attack sequence, but only once per round. If you used it for later attacks its magnitude was higher (more bleed), at the cost of less chance to hit.

    Somebody else in the party had attack B which, when used on a bleeding enemy, would stop the bleeding but cause the "shaken" condition, its magnitude based on the number of rounds that the enemy bled.

    There was a mixture of attacks with increased damage or effects if the enemy had certain conditions / health levels / was hit by previous chains / enemy positioning / caster positioning
    Again, this was too complicated in playtests and i ended up not using it.
    Last edited by Madeiner; 2014-04-16 at 07:11 PM.

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