How do you figure out what spells to give your sorcerers?

[Scalenex]

This is always very hard for me. When I make NPC sorcerers usually rely on fluff over crunch, particularly for sorcerers who are or are descended from powerful monsters like dragons (and since I don't use the color-coded system, my dragons are all unique). I made a half-dragon barbarian from the frozen north with a bunch of cold based attacks and buff spells related to endurance. I created a desert dwelling dragon that extorts money along a trading route village by camping out in an oasis and charging tolls so I gave him a desert theme. His spells are fire or wind based to represent desert storms, and I've given him every fatigue spell (desert exhausting people) and several illusions (mirages). Mighty creatures like dragons, I can give them powers related to their aptitudes and environment but I am frequently stumped on what to give low level and midlevel ordinary sorcerers. The ones that may or may not have an unusual pedigree but for the most part are ordinary people gifted (or afflicted) with extraordinary powers.

I figured I'd bring this up because a sorcerer vs. wizard post came up and I'm going to be trying a barbarian/sorcerer PC for a friends low level game relatively shortly. The only reason I'm playing said character is because I had said that barbarians and sorcerers even moreso were the last classes I'd ever try. In fact they are the only two classes I've never tried (unless you don't count the 2nd ed monk I played as a true monk).

Since this character is a frontline warrior and a sorcerer, I'm taking True Strike and Magic Weapon. I'm going to concentrate on buffs and touch attack spells to try to get some synergy from my odd class combo. I assume for the single class sorcerer that magic missile is the MVP of 1st level spells for low level because it never misses and you can usually find need to cast that spell several times a day. I don't know what everyone's thoughts are on Sleep since it's very powerful at first level but loses utility with each increase. Also, it always struck me that the most powerful spells for their level are for very specialized uses and that means they aren't necessarily the best choice for sorcerers. The best example I can think of to sum this up are all of the 2nd level transmutation spells at the good ol' SRD.

http://srd.plush.org/wizardSpells.html

So how do you pick your sorcerers' spells?

P.S. Please do not hijack this forum and debate the whether sorcerers or wizards are better or how to "fix" sorcerers to make them better, there are plenty of those threads out there.

[Dhavaer]

I choose spells depending on what I think will be useful.

Spells

0- No Light, Ghost Sound, Grope, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation, Silent Portal, Slash Tongue, Stick
1- Colour Spray, Greater Mage Hand, Night Shield, Lesser Orb of Fire, Spirit Worm
2- Phantasmal Assailants, Shadow Spray, Dance of Ruin, See Invisibility, Knock
3- Mind Poison, Dispel Magic, Slow, Drown
4- Orb of Force, Ruin Delver’s Fortune, Remove Curse, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability
5- Night’s Caress, Cloudkill, Telekinesis, Touch of Vecna
6- Ruby Ray of Reversal, Ghoul Gauntlet, Freezing Fog
7- Whirlwind of Teeth, Greater Teleport
8- Mindblank

These are the spells I'm intending to give my Warlock/Sorcerer/Eldritch Theurge. Lots of touch spells to use with Greatreach Blast. A bunch of save spells, because she's a Sherezem-lar. And some more that are just either good or cool.

[Thomas]

I pick the spells I want them to cast on the PCs... easy-peasy.

I also try to use a lot of spells from anywhere other than the PHB, because my players know those by heart at this point, and I like to surprise them.

[Elfwitch]

I like to play themed sorcerers. Since a sorcerer's magic comes from within I like their personality to reflective in their spells.

For example I played a sorcerer when 3.0 first came out that was rather a pacifist she didn't enjoy killing she was also very much the party face and the party spy. So I had spells like alter self, clauirdance. greater invisabilty.

Her only two offensive spells were magic missle and a spell my DM designed from the psion list a spell called mindwipe. But she had some really good support spells like slow, haste, phantom steed. The DM also ruled that I could use the skill lisr form the empath in psionics handbook.

Another sorcerer I played had a very dark personality and she was intrigued by the question of what is death so she had took most of her spells from the necromantic school.

I had another sorcerer who was pyro at heart and she had spells like burning hands, scorching ray, fireball.

I find it boring to always have to take the same must have spells again and again.

[Dairun Cates]

Honestly, give them whatever they need to make the battle interesting. If you have a specific combo in mind, remember to copy that down ahead of time. Still, it's not worth the effort to have those specific details unless it's a specific encounter. Just use digression and you should be fine.

[Scalenex]

I pick the spells I want them to cast on the PCs... easy-peasy.

I also try to use a lot of spells from anywhere other than the PHB, because my players know those by heart at this point, and I like to surprise them.

You seem to have a very adversarial stance towards the PCs. I do not DM with the purpose of defeating my players (usually). While I could go through the lists and hand pick the spells best suited to defeating my PCs, I can't justify why their enemies would know what they are. For the most part, casual viewers of the PC party would grossly mislabel them. The dwarf is a monk which wouldn't be so off-putting except that he took a single level of fighter and carries around a lot of weapons even if he rarely uses them. That means his fast speed and excellent saves throw people off. The gnome wizard is an abjurer who took Illusions as an oppostion school, the main combatant is a halfling and the Rogue is an elf who just screams fighter/wizard.

[Cybren]

You seem to have a very adversarial stance towards the PCs. I do not DM with the purpose of defeating my players (usually). While I could go through the lists and hand pick the spells best suited to defeating my PCs, I can't justify why their enemies would know what they are. For the most part, casual viewers of the PC party would grossly mislabel them. The dwarf is a monk which wouldn't be so off-putting except that he took a single level of fighter and carries around a lot of weapons even if he rarely uses them. That means his fast speed and excellent saves throw people off. The gnome wizard is an abjurer who took Illusions as an oppostion school, the main combatant is a halfling and the Rogue is an elf who just screams fighter/wizard.

I think he means he does it to make an interesting challenge for his players, not kill them. I mean he can just have lots of traps that are save or die and have the enemy sorcerer (especially if he used it as a BBEG as they tend to be of higher level than the party on average) use spells like Slay Living

[Thomas]

You seem to have a very adversarial stance towards the PCs.

That's putting a bit harshly, but I suppose so, yes. I try to challenge them - and believe me, it takes all the effort and rules-juggling I can pull. I'm not going to give them a "free pass" on an encounter by gimping the opposition with useless spells.

I can't tell you how pleased I was that - in a campaign where the PCs had so far taken out several level-appropriate encounters (including a bulette, at 5th level) in one single round (with perfectly normal, WBL, PHB characters) - I managed to play bog-standard (well, psionic, but otherwise perfectly average and unmodified) illithids so tough they actually beat the party (killing half of them and forcing the rest to retreat), because of my good choice and good use of psionic powers.


However... to paraphrase Oscar Wilde, the reading reflects the reader. You're reading way too much into the statement - that is, you're assuming a lot about what I want my NPCs to cast at a my PCs.

If I wanted to frustrate, defeat, and negate my players, I'd just stop GMing and apply to work for Blizzard on WoW or something.

If, however, I want to challenge my players, I'm not going to put them up against sorcerers who, for instance, only know spells that use elements the entire party is resistant to.

[Gamebird]

If, however, I want to challenge my players, I'm not going to put them up against sorcerers who, for instance, only know spells that use elements the entire party is resistant to.

However, it always tickles the PCs to no end to have a bad guy waste a spell or two on them after they've defended against it. You just have to scale the bad guy up enough so he'll survive long enough to be a challenge, rather than just being a joke. (PC: "Ha! What a loser! Good thing we were all protected from fire. That guy might have been a threat if he'd cast anything other than fire spells at us.")


But aside from that, my method is to pick what I think seems reasonable for the bad guy, given their environment, tactics and what they've been fighting (if anything). An NPC sorcerer in a city might have half of his spells as combat-useless. Of course, I don't plan on having him in a combat. If the PCs fight him for some reason, he's of course going to use that other half of his spells, the half that's useful, but his selection will be poor.

If I'm going to run a spell caster against the PCs and I have any warning for it (which I usually do), then I always lay out their spell choice beforehand.

[Rama_Lei]

Is this gestalt? Anyway, go for buffs to make yourself an even better Barbarian. Bull's Strength and Endurance, Cat's Grace, and more.

[Scalenex]

Is this gestalt? Anyway, go for buffs to make yourself an even better Barbarian. Bull's Strength and Endurance, Cat's Grace, and more.

Since Sorcerers don't get new spell levels except on the even numbered levels (4,6,8) and I'm planning on splitting my class levels relatively equally and I'm thinking of taking a bloodline, I'm not going to have a whole lot of 2nd level spells to choose from. I just couldn't make up my mind which whether I'd want Bull, Bear, or Cat so I defaulted to my favorite spell from my phase where I played multi-classed illusionists, Mirror Image. Other front runners are Scorching Ray (modified to do cold damage for fluff reasons), and Resist Energy.

Would it be too twinky to let sorcerers learn a spell called Animal's Power and be able to customize the bonus during casting similar to how Resist Energy doesn't need to be specified a head of time? I'm thinking three-for-one rather than six-for-one lumping the bottom three together and the top three together. Since sorcerers have a primal thing going and the six animal spells strike me as pretty simple (they are enhancing existing abilities rather than making the laws of physics shut down). Just a thought.

Also, what level would be fair for a spell to remove fatigue after raging? I'm thinking level one because there's a level 3 spell for a fatigue-free Rage. I got the idea when I read about a houserule spell called "Quicksober".

[Rama_Lei]

Hmm...Lesser Restoration works, but that's a divine spell...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

How do I choose what spells to give my Sorcerer? Easy, I look at the role I am going to be expected to fill.

Is the tank a 'Hulk Smash' type with no Battlefield Control? Okay, I'll grab Solid Fog, Stinking Cloud, Slow, and a few other Battlefield Control type spells to keep the bad guys shut down while my Hulk gets around to smiting them down.

Is the other arcane caster a utility mage with awsome stuff for nearly every occasion... except damage? Score, I'll load up with a ton of Evocation type spells, with Incantatrix and Archmage as my PrC's to ensure I can get any flavor of any power I want and not worry about hitting my own buddies.

Do we need an arcane 'toolbox'? Fine. I'll grab utility like Rope Trick, Knock, Shatter, and other handy dandy spells.

My spell list is greatly dependant on what abilities my party has and what roll they need me to fill.

[Fax Celestis]

A Barb/Sorc needs to get his hands on Animalistic Power and Chasing Perfection.

Tell me, are you heading for Rage Mage?

[Scalenex]

A Barb/Sorc needs to get his hands on Animalistic Power and Chasing Perfection.

Tell me, are you heading for Rage Mage?

I have not heard of Animalistic Power, Chasing Perfection or Rage Mage. My group only has the DMG, PHB, and MM at our disposal. Not much else besides what we can squeeze out of the SRD.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I have not heard of Animalistic Power, Chasing Perfection or Rage Mage. My group only has the DMG, PHB, and MM at our disposal. Not much else besides what we can squeeze out of the SRD.

if you're stuck with Core, then go Eldrich Knight. Full BAB and spell progression starting level 2. You can get 9th level spells and BAB of +16 if you swing it right.

[Gamebird]

Would it be too twinky to let sorcerers learn a spell called Animal's Power and be able to customize the bonus during casting similar to how Resist Energy doesn't need to be specified a head of time?

Yes, it would. One of the limits on a sorcerer's power is the limited number of spells known. A change like you're proposing should at least be a 3rd level spell.

[Were-Sandwich]

You just avoid those direct damage spells, cause everyone knows they are teh suxxor, then stack up on save or dies, because then you'll have the most optimised spell selection ever!

[Telonius]

It depends. If we already have a batman in the group, I'll load up on the direct damage spells, and take Energy Substitution. If I'm the only arcane caster, I'll concentrate on the batman spells.

This is the full list of spells I'd grab, from core, if you're the fill-in Batman.
Level 0
Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Ray of Frost, Light, Message, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Resistance
Level 1
Grease, Comprehend Languages, Color Spray, Ray of Enfeeblement, Feather Fall. (Use wands for Magic Missile).
Level 2
Glitterdust, Web, See Invisibility, Mirror Image, Spider Climb.
Level 3
Dispel Magic, Blink, Haste, Fly.
Level 4
Black Tentacles, Dimensional Anchor, Greater Invisibility, Rainbow Pattern
Level 5
Teleport, Telepathic Bond, Feeblemind, Break Enchantment. (Switch out Teleport to Wall of Force when you get Greater Teleport).
Level 6
Contingency, True Seeing, Circle of Death
Level 7
Greater Teleport, Forcecage, Power Word Blind. (Use scrolls for Plane Shift).
Level 8
Irresistable Dance, Scintillating Pattern, Maze.
Level 9
Gate, Time Stop, Power Word (Kill).