Warhammer 40K Tabletop XX: "Barrage is the new Precision Shot."

[Cheesegear]

Ah. That's an artifact of the 6th edition ruling where HQ choices that didn't occupy a slot didn't qualify to be the Warlord. I'd forgotten that detail. However, if anything and everything can be the Warlord, that's a lot of traits to roll up.

Or you can simply make the 'artifact' part of your campaign rules, just like your campaign rule of only HQ models can be Warlords (No Thrawn Warlords).

Here's how I'd do it.
Anytime you choose a model to be your Warlord, roll a dice. That Character has that Warlord Trait for the duration of the campaign.

What should happen, is that you only need to roll a dice when you choose a Warlord that hasn't already been chosen. If you never intend on Character [B] ever being your Warlord, ever, then you shouldn't need to roll a dice for him.

[Renegade Paladin]

Point taken. I'll edit appropriately, thanks.

In other news, I've been thinking about getting Imperial Armour 1 Second Edition for the Armored Company army list now that it has Russes with Objective Secured. However, since it was published before the current Guard codex, I'm wondering how it stacks up. Do the tanks use the old points costs? How do command tanks from it compare against tank commanders from AM IG? Any other considerations I didn't ask about just now? I never got around to kitbashing any of the artillery pieces that were removed from the new codex, so that's not a major concern for me.

In other other news...

[Turalisj]

Here's what I own so far, though not all of it is put together:

20x Necron Warriors
5x Necron Immortals
5x Canoptek Scarabs
Ghost/Doom Ark
Annihilation Barge
x5 Necron Deathmarks
Overlord with Ressurection Orb and Warpscythe (came with the Barge)
Doomscythe

And that's what my current setup is. If I put all but 2 warriors in, that'll give me roughly a 1000pt army to play with. A very shooty army that will induce rage in tank commanders.

[Drasius]

@ Rengade Paladin

1) Do Orks count as moving more than 6" if they have red paint job, and thus qualify for moving more than 1 location per turn?

And

2) IIRC, the guard ABG has Russes as non-scoring troops, so they wouldn't have objective secured. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong (I probably am).

@ Winterwind

Depends on vehicle saturation I guess. If you've got lots of vehicles, then go vindicators (forgefiends are much more expensive and odds say they'll glance themselves to death after 3 turns even without the enemy helping them). Helbrute w/plasma cannon is also an option if you're short on heavy support options. A Predator Annhilator is also an option if you're not, and can at least be snap fired at air units.

If you're going infantry heavy, oblits, havoks, terminators, chosen, CSM all have plasma/melta/lascannon options. You could do a lot worse than 215 points on a Rhino with combi plasma, 10 marines, 2 plasma guns and objective secured for both the rhino and the marines (plus whatever MoS costs). 205 for melta and now you can hunt tanks from the front, double out characters and paladins and wound most mosterous creatures on a 2+.

Termies with combi plas/melta are only 110 for 3 (again, plus whatever MoS costs) in addition to being able to deepstrike on isolated objectives, be hard to remove or divert firepower with their 2+/5++ and come with power weapons that mean if you're taking MoS, those guys are going to ruin marines if they survive, not that you care if they don't.

Otherwise havoks if you've got spare heavy support slots (preferably with ablative wounds), otherwise chosen it is. Either way, try getting a rhino in there since another scoring unit for 35 points is almost better than cultists. Bonus points if you have Huron or get the 3 non vehicle units infiltrate warlord trait.

[DaedalusMkV]

(forgefiends are much more expensive and odds say they'll glance themselves to death after 3 turns even without the enemy helping them).

What on earth are you basing that on? On average it takes a Forgefiend 9 rolls of a 1 on their Gets Hot to glance themselves to death, assuming that they don't pass a single It Will Not Die roll in that time period (50% of the time a weapon that Gets Hot causes a Glance. 33% of the time a Glance is caused, the Daemon Invulnerable Save stops it). That means an average of 54 shots for a Forgefiend to kill itself, and at 3 shots per turn you're looking at 18 turns. During which time it regains every Hull Point it loses using It Will Not Die, at a rate of roughly two successful IWNDs per Hull Point lost to Gets Hot.

A Forgefiend will glance itself to death roughly never unless you're astoundingly unlucky. It might, however, commit seppuku after being badly damaged by the enemy. These things happen in 7th edition.

[Cheesegear]

Guide to Siege Assault Vanguard

Army list can be found here.

Special Rules

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Army List: The Siege Assault Vanguard (SAV) army list has a special Force Organisation Chart. In addition to the normal 1 HQ and 2 Troops, SAV also requires one Heavy Support. In addition, the SAV has four Heavy Support slots, but only two Fast Attack slots. This should be fine. The SAV list also disallows Drop Pods, Bikes and Scouts. The former two are immensely powerful components of a Space Marine army, and if that makes you not want to play a SAV list, then don't. Scouts...Don't worry about it. If you're really worried about board control, consider picking up Kor'Sarro Khan or Raven Guard Chapter Tactics. Speaking of...

Chapter Tactics:
Ultramarines; Still good.
White Scars; The SAV list doesn't allow Bikes - at all. So that sucks. However, the SAV list does make judicious use of non-Drop Pod Dedicated Transports, so Kor'Sarro giving Scout to all of those things is actually pretty useful.
Imperial Fists; The SAV list is what Sentinels of Terra should have been. That being said, Imperial Fists are an idyllic choice. The SAV list is free. Sentinels of Terra costs money. Don't be dumb.
Black Templars; No. You'll see why, later on.
Iron Hands; A very good choice if you're a fan of Land Raiders, and, if not, remember that you have 4 Heavy slots, so bring those Vindicators and/or Predators.
Salamanders; The SAV list doesn't allow Drop Pods. So Salamanders have a marked reduction in effectiveness.
Raven Guard; If you're using Siege Assault Squads in Land Raiders, it's incredibly powerful since you gain Scout back and you don't need to waste points picking up Kor'Sarro Khan to do it. Remember that Siege Mantlets make your model Bulky. So don't bring those. Bring Rhinos.

"A [Clan Raukaan/Sentinels of Terra] Detachment is chosen using the army list presented in Codex: Space Marines..."

Since you are not using the army list presented in Codex: Space Marines, you may not use Clan Raukaan or Sentinels of Terra as your Chapter Tactics.

The Siege Objective: The SO is an additional Objective, placed by your opponent, worth zero points. However, even though it's worth zero points, the SAV list can not win games unless you control the SO anyway. It sounds like a bigger problem than it actually is. Remember that every single one of your units Score, so all you need to do it put a unit - any unit - on it, so that's how that goes. The other thing you need to remember, is that you actually know this. Every single SAV list you ever make needs to be made with the knowledge that there is the SO that you need to get or you can't win. Because your opponent places the Objective, you can bet at least 80% of the time, the SO is going to be in your opponents' DZ, so, make sure you have at least one unit designed for scoring Linebreaker points. That's it. The SO is something you plan your list around. Not planning around the SO, is like building a Tyranid list without Synapse models and wondering why you keep losing.

Warlord Traits
1. Melee attacks gain Rending when attacking something with an Armour Value. Unfortunately, if you'll actually read the rules, Melta Bombs are not actually Melee weapons. Anyway, re-roll.
2. Blast and Barrage weapons are Twin-Linked. Keep 'em if you've got 'em.
3. Split Fire is nice.
4. Gain Rampage if you're in Assault with a unit inside a Building, Fort or Ruin. Too many conditions for this to work. Re-roll.
5. When in your opponents' DZ, gain a Hatred aura. Way more useful than conditional Rampage.
6. Re-rolls to see if the game ends - success and failures. Which is which depends on your viewpoint and how the game is going.

Rampage isn't great, even before you factor in the extra condition to get it, and Rending Melee attacks only against armoured targets is not great either. The other four Traits are actually pretty good. Remember your re-rolls.

HQ

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Siege Master: The Siege Master is a Captain with Artificer Armour. So, yes. He is more expensive than a vanilla Captain, but, are you seriously not taking Artificer Armour on your Captain? Really? With that said, the Siege Master pays only five points for the following;
Signum; BS5 is really good. Remember that you can use a Signum and Auspex at the same time. Especially because you don't even have any good ranged weapons to pick up.
Re-rolling Reserves. Self-explanatory. And, just to ape a Tau Commander even more (except not as good), at the start of the game, choose one non-Flying unit in your army, that unit gets either Tank Hunters, Monter Hunter, Interceptor or Furious Charge.

Signum, Reserves, USR. For five points. Then you can just kit out your Siege Master like a normal Captain anyway.

- Command Squad: Remember how you're not actually playing Space Marines? The Siege Master is the only way that the SAV list can get access to a Command Squad.
RAW: The Command Squad can take Bikes. Grab that SO.
Q: Can the Command Squad take any Dedicated Transport (including a Drop Pod ), or only a Land Raider Prometheus?

Chapter Master: Just can't take a Bike. But, you also can't take Honour Guard since they don't exist in the SAV list.

Captain: Did you see the part where a Siege Master only costs five more Points, yet does so much more?

Librarian: Sanctic or Telekinesis. You're aiming for Gate of Infinity or Levitation, respectively. Remember that you must grab that SO, and those two Powers are some really easy ways to grab it on the last turn. Sanctic has the regular problems of extra Perils, but, remember that you can't Perils on one dice, so use a lot of those WC1 Powers and be fine. However, only ever putting one dice into a Power is really lame. So TK is really good. Go and read all of the TK Powers, right now. They're not consistent - at all. However, if you do roll not-Levitation, make sure you know what to fall back on. Make sure you understand what Assail/Strikedown does and how to use it. Telepathy is solid, sure. But...That SO.

Chaplain: Eh.

Master of the Forge: Another fluffy choice, especially with #2 Warlord Trait and a Conversion Beamer. Bolster Defences is helpful, but, that's what Thunderfire Cannons are for.

Elites

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Terminators: Eh. They're nowhere near as good as they once were.

Terminator Assault Squad: Using a Siege Master, they can grab Furious Charge, but, that's about it. Decent brick.

Sternguard Veteran Squad: Without Drop Pods, their loadout is limited to a pair of Heavy weapons in a Rhino. In extremely large point games, you might be able to take Pedro Kantor, and put them in Land Raiders. But, since Sternguard really, really want to be shooting, it's actually kind of a bad idea.

Dreadnought: Ignore always for...
Venerable Dreadnought: Your opponent will never roll 7s. And, even when they do, make them re-roll it. The BS5 is good, too.

Centurion Devastators: Moving them to Elites was a nice touch, since it frees up your four Heavy slots for other things. They have more Heavy weapons than Sternguard, they're tough as bricks and don't go away. The only reason that your Librarian should roll on Biomancy, is if you have a unit of these for him to cast Endurance on. Iron Hands Chapter Tactics is always a solid choice on units with T5, but, Imperial Fists give them Tank Hunters, which frees your Siege Master to give another unit Tank Hunters - or something else.

Techmarine: Sitting in the Elites slot is really, really bad.

Troops

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Siege Dreadnought Talon: Siege Dreadnoughts are a waste of your money and points. Ironclads all the way. Not only are Ironclads AV13, but, they also have Move Through Cover and the option of picking up Grenades, so, when they do try and Charge something, Ironclads don't derp around.
RAW: You can give Ironclad Dreadnoughts Drop Pod.
However, double-RAW: If you do mount them in Drop Pods, you'll never be able to deploy them because of their special Deployment rules. So...Don't do that.

Tactical Squad: The same as any Tactical Squad, however can't take Drop Pods, which makes Ultramarines sad. The only real difference is the option to pick up Siege Mantlets. Giving your squad Mantlets is a flat cost, no matter how many models are actually in the squad. So, if you take five models, you're spending a lot of points on few models. If you have ten models in the squad, you're spreading the points over more models, so it doesn't actually hurt you as much when one model is removed. The problem with large squads, is that since Mantlets make you Bulky, and you can't pick up Dedicated Transports, your only option is a Land Raider, which limits your squad sizes if you want to do that sort of thing, which you shouldn't. Not really. Because you've got access to Siege Assault Squads.

Centurion Assault Squad: Moving them to Troops is a huge boost. Unfortunately, not big enough. Just because they're Troops, it doesn't mean they stop being a Centurion Assault Squad. If you plan on using them at all, you'll need a six-man squad, not that that will make the squad good. You're just throwing more points into a bad unit. ...Did you have a look at how many points three Ironclad Dreadnoughts are? Maybe you could use a Dreadnought Talon instead.

Siege Assault Squad: A Siege Assault Squad is an Assault Squad-on-foot, that can only take Land Raiders (any type) as a Dedicated Transport, and have the Crusader rule, and can pick up two Special Weapons. Remember why you aren't playing Black Templars? This unit is it. You can give the whole squad Melta Bombs at 3 Points per model, which is stupidly good, and you can give them Combat Shields at '2.5' Points per model, which isn't as good, because 6++ saves aren't actually that good, especially if you spend half your time sitting in a Land Raider. Remember that you have Combat Squads, and there's always potential abuse for that.
Remember: If you just want to field Land Raiders as Dedicated Transports for Troops, there's always Blood Angels. The SAV list just allows access to other Space Marines units. If all you want to do is field Land Raiders, Blood Angels are probably the better choice.

Fast Attack

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Assault Squad: Not being able to take a Drop Pod reduces their effectiveness considerably. Ignore for...

Vanguard Veteran Squad: Moving them to Fast was probably a good idea. They still have the same problem as they do in the Codex Marines list. But, if you aren't willing to shell out for Land Raiders on Siege Assault Squads, you can spend those same 'Land Raider Points' on boosting up the Vanguard and grabbing a few more Storm Shields than you normally would. Remember that Siege Objective and how you need it to win? Just remember that in the SAV list your Fast slots are limited.

Stormtalon: In the last turn (go second) switch to Hover on the SO. Good job! You did it.

Stormraven: Moving to Fast was a bad idea. You have more Heavy slots and less Fast slots. Fast is exactly where the Stormraven doesn't want to be. While the SAV list's Fast slot isn't cluttered with Bikes and Land Speeder options that you weren't going to take anyway, Stormtalons are still around and still plenty good.

Heavy Support

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Devastator Squad: Missile Launchers. How easy. Remember that your Siege Master also comes with a Signum for two BS5 shots. Warlord Traits also allow you to re-roll your Frag Missiles or pick up BS5 Split Fire which is never bad. Not only is Skyfire exceptionally rare, but, your Devastators can get it, and then the Siege Master can also give them Interceptor which Space Marines don't have at all outside of Fortifications. Again, because the SAV list is secretly an Imperial Fists army list in disguise, if you actually make them Imperial Fists, your Devastators also pick up Tank Hunters which means any and every Flier that even attempts to enter airspace isn't going to have a fun time. If you do have a Weapon Fortification, remember to abuse your Signum.

Thunderfire Cannon: Always a good choice. Will never not be.

Predator Tank Squadron: Now in squad form! However, we've finally hit our first snag when it comes to 'Totally free rules, ZOMG!' A Predator Tank Squadron has the Relic rule. It might be a misprint that's only supposed to apply to the Deimos Predator, however, that's not what the rule says. Basically, a Predator Tank Squadron is 0-1, unless you have a Master of the Forge, which you probably don't. Still, if you need to bring more than three Predators in your army, you're probably doing something catastrophically wrong. But, otherwise...Predators.

Artillery Support Squadron: The first Whirlwind is 65 Points, with each subsequent Whirlwind 85 Points. This more than likely has something to do with turning Barrage into Multiple Barrage, and is probably not actually a misprint. But, if it is, it's a misprint that actually makes sense. If you actually plan on taking extra Tanks that aren't Whirlwinds, don't, and take advantage of your extra Heavy slot, since you're paying for Multiple Barrage that you aren't actually using, and that's a really terrible idea.

Vindicator Tank Squadron: Vindicators in Squadrons. They do their thing.

Allies

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The SAV list counts as a Space Marines list. With that said, your key Allies choice is anything that can Score Linbreaker points and grab your SO for you, as there is no rule stating that the SO must be held by a SAV unit. So, Ally with your own Space Marine Battle Brothers and grab a few Drop Pods, or anything that can Outflank.

Neither of these Guides have been updated for 7th, but they will provide a starting point...
Forge World Space Marine Chapters and Characters
Imperial Armour Volume 2 (Second Edition), which is where half the non-Land Raider power of the SAV list actually lies if you can afford it.

[Drasius]

My bad, I was thinking a vehicle gets hot on a 1 - 3, rather than another roll after that.

In that case, still take the vindicator anyway.

[omegalith]

Here's what I own so far, though not all of it is put together:

20x Necron Warriors
5x Necron Immortals
5x Canoptek Scarabs
Ghost/Doom Ark
Annihilation Barge
x5 Necron Deathmarks
Overlord with Ressurection Orb and Warpscythe (came with the Barge)
Doomscythe

And that's what my current setup is. If I put all but 2 warriors in, that'll give me roughly a 1000pt army to play with. A very shooty army that will induce rage in tank commanders.

18 warriors and five Immortals with only one Res Orb between them is a fairly low number of troops. The warriors are fine, but Immortals are fragile and can't concentrate large amounts of fire when they're only at half strength with no character in amongst them.

Deathmarks are easy to deploy in a useful position and assassinate something valuable, though be aware that three out of four times they'll be dead soon after they make their strike, so make it count. They've definitely won me at least one game though.

Scarabs are pretty great when in their element, though they'll attract a lot of fire. Hope for good deployment, because if they start in a bad position you'll pretty much be suicide rushing a tank whilst praying they don't run out of wounds before they get to it. Remember that they can run in the shooting phase in any turn where they have no hope of getting into assault range.

Annihilation Barges have pretty much nothing negative that can be said... You'll hear glowing praise from pretty much everywhere.

Doomscythe is a nice vehicle, but a real points sink at this level... It is your key source of AP 1-2 in this list though. Dedicated Terminator killers are nice to have when you need them.

Ghost Ark is very solid as well, and given it's support role for your troops, is probably the most important vehicle you have.

Anyhow, having fun is the top priority, but you might be slightly overfocused on heavy support/vehicles at this points level (Remember, the thing that angers tank commanders the most is lots of basic troops!) and could tweak the army slightly in a number of ways to make it a little more optimal:

I'd personally recommend either:

Dropping the Immortals, splitting the Warrior unit in two, and spending the extra points on a Cryptek of Despair for the Deathmark unit (Very nice combo for assassinating things with crippling force, just make sure he has the Deep Strike wargear item) and Wargear, or:

Taking out one of the following units:

Deathmarks,
Scarabs,
Annihilation Barge,

And using the freed up points to give your Overlord a Sempiternal weave and Mindshackle Scarabs, then buy up immortals and warriors focusing on Immortals first because your warriors are almost at full strength already.

Alternately, take out the Doomscythe, stick a Destroyer Lord in the Scarab Swarm for some much very useful assault utility (5 scarabs aren't going to win a lot of assaults on their own) and spend the rest on wargear. I've beaten a Daemon Prince with a Mindshackle and Weave setup Destroyer Lord in a Scarab unit.

That said, the Doomscythe is a great centrepiece model for an army and one I'd not be surprised if you were hesitant about changing out.

Or least dramatically: Just drop the Overlord's Warscythe and get another warrior. It's not likely to make a huge difference on it's own without other combat wargear, and you'll get five extra shots in rapid fire range. You still have the fragility of the Immortal unit... But so long as you accept up front that them, the scarabs and the Deathmarks are all very expendable, you're fine. I don't really like expending a lot of entire units if I can avoid it, but playstyles differ.

Out of the options I listed, I'd personally go with one that makes your army's leaders stand out more because I like to give them personality if I can... But it is definitely a playable army as is, I just figured I'd give what advice I could.

[Wraith]

Tyranid Warriors have a FOUR+ SAVE!

Except worse, because Shrikes actually do have a 5+ save.

Apparently I can't read along a straight line - Tyranid SHRIKES are right next to what I was looking at, in the main article.

Doesn't even work in 7th.

Wow, how did I not catch that? End of player turn/end of game turn mistake, probably.

Like I said; Warlord models with Regeneration.

Fair enough.

Your non-HQ choices for Warlord is either The Red Terror, or a Broodlord. Choose wisely.

I'm actually really fond of this, as a concept. It's not great as tactics go, but it's one of those weird, characterful little details that some Codices lack.

But otherwise, thank you both.

[Cheesegear]

I'm actually really fond of this, as a concept.

I've actually given it some thought, too. As I've mentioned further up the page, the only requirement to being a Warlord, is that your model is a Character. You don't need to be an HQ, and you don't even need to have the highest Leadership in your army (which is kind of dumb, tbh). So, I went through all my Codecies...

To that end, when deciding to make a non-HQ model your Warlord, what you're looking for in a Warlord is something that doesn't give up your Slay the Warlord point when your actual HQ, probably would. This generally means higher Toughness, muti-Wounds and/or a good armour save.

Astra Militarum; Bullgryn Bone'ead with a Brute Shield - much wow. Tempestor Prime also works.
Chaos Daemons; Plague Drone Champion, or the Exalted Flamer in a Burning Chariot.
Eldar; Wraithlord (do people even realise that they're Characters and Wraithknights aren't?)
Grey Knights; Thrawn. Hands down.
Necrons; Heading back to your roots, you can make a C'Tan Shard your Warlord, and play 'proper' Necrons.
Orks; A Nob on a Bike. Especially if you've decided to make your HQ a Big Mek.
Space Marines; Centurion Sergeant - preferably the Devastator type - if a Librarian is your HQ.
Tau; If you've got an Ethereal in your HQ slot, don't be afraid to make a Broadside Shas'ui your Warlord.
Tyranids; You have exactly one more Character than Necrons; Red Terror or a Genestealer Broodlord. But, really only if you've got a Tervigon (or two) in your HQ.

For every other Codex, your non-HQ models are not better, as good as, or more survivable than your HQs.

[Winterwind]

Thanks a lot, DaedalusMkV and Drasius! That was quite helpful.

I've actually given it some thought, too. As I've mentioned further up the page, the only requirement to being a Warlord, is that your model is a Character. You don't need to be an HQ, and you don't even need to have the highest Leadership in your army (which is kind of dumb, tbh). So, I went through all my Codecies...

To that end, when deciding to make a non-HQ model your Warlord, what you're looking for in a Warlord is something that doesn't give up your Slay the Warlord point when your actual HQ, probably would. This generally means higher Toughness, muti-Wounds and/or a good armour save.

I think there is one more consideration to take, though. An HQ is usually quite a bit of points, so you rarely can afford to have it sitting around doing nothing (which is further exacerbated by a lot of them needing to be close to the enemy, often even outright in close-combat, to do their thing). A non-HQ model, on the other hand, might be cheap enough that you could stick it somewhere where it is unlikely to ever face action - thus, besides Toughness, multi-Wounds and/or good saves, you need to consider whether the model in question needs to expose itself to danger or not. I'm not sure, but I think this has the potential to change things quite a bit.

[Requizen]

I've actually given it some thought, too. As I've mentioned further up the page, the only requirement to being a Warlord, is that your model is a Character. You don't need to be an HQ, and you don't even need to have the highest Leadership in your army (which is kind of dumb, tbh). So, I went through all my Codecies...

To that end, when deciding to make a non-HQ model your Warlord, what you're looking for in a Warlord is something that doesn't give up your Slay the Warlord point when your actual HQ, probably would. This generally means higher Toughness, muti-Wounds and/or a good armour save.

Necrons; Heading back to your roots, you can make a C'Tan Shard your Warlord, and play 'proper' Necrons.

Would be really cool, fluffy idea, will consider it actually

As another thought - An Overlord on a Chariot running forward is going to do a lot of damage, but also is an easy target for giving up Slay the Warlord. Putting one of his Royal Court Lords with a 2+ and a Res Orb in a blob of 12-20 Warriors sitting on the mid/back line, though, that'll be more out of the way with a lot of ablative wounds around him. Of course, it actually doesn't make a lot of sense from a fluff standpoint to have the Lord outrank the Overlord, but tactically it is kind of interesting.

I mean, you don't want a 1W model to be your Warlord, but an assault-oriented ChariotLord is probably going to give up the VP sooner or later, and as long as the Lord doesn't get challenged he should have a better chance of surviving.

[omegalith]

Nah, 5th edition Necrons are honestly truer to their roots than the 3rd edition mindless C'tan slave ones were.

There's not a lot of info in the prototype rules articles, but it's pretty much all about how they're a mysterious ancient race that once had a glorious empire then went into stasis only to return in the 40th Millenium. No mention of slavery to star gods.

Not to say that C'tan aren't cool, but an army with zero personality wasn't the ideal handling of the initial concept.

[LeSwordfish]

- thus, besides Toughness, multi-Wounds and/or good saves, you need to consider whether the model in question needs to expose itself to danger or not. I'm not sure, but I think this has the potential to change things quite a bit.

Keep your warlord in reserve all game, take an HQ choice with reserve manipulation. Bring them on as late as possible- A Tempestor Prime might be good for this.

[Cheesegear]

I think there is one more consideration to take, though. An HQ is usually quite a bit of points, so you rarely can afford to have it sitting around doing nothing (which is further exacerbated by a lot of them needing to be close to the enemy, often even outright in close-combat, to do their thing).

Yes. Exactly. Which is how you end up giving up your Slay the Warlord point.

you could stick it somewhere where it is unlikely to ever face action - thus, besides Toughness, multi-Wounds and/or good saves, you need to consider whether the model in question needs to expose itself to danger or not.

That's not possible. If I tell my opponent that my Warlord is a 1-Wound model with no Invulnerable save, things will get really real. Can I interest you in a plate of Barrage Pie?

Of course, it actually doesn't make a lot of sense from a fluff standpoint to have the Lord outrank the Overlord, but tactically it is kind of interesting.

Somebody hasn't read The Second Damnosian War (specifically, Cryptek Ankh), nor taken into account Nu-Crons' tendency towards moustache-twirling villains with political ambitions trying to do each other in. At the very least, you can imagine a scenario where your actual Commander is a complete idiot, and his 2IC has decided 'F* it, I'm in charge now.' and he starts giving the orders, while the real Commander is off Charging into the enemy trying to get himself killed.

While I'm at it, I'm trying to think of a scenario that makes a Bullgryn a Warlord, over an actual Commander.

Keep your warlord in reserve all game, take an HQ choice with reserve manipulation.

Now that, is kind of brilliant. Another reason to take Tigurius.

[Renegade Paladin]

@ Rengade Paladin

1) Do Orks count as moving more than 6" if they have red paint job, and thus qualify for moving more than 1 location per turn?

They have to be vehicles to have a red paint job, yes? Vehicles do, in fact, have movement rates greater than 6" because Cruising Speed is 12". That's quite intentional, to allow bringing up second-echelon units in/composed of vehicles to an attack so that a player doesn't have to throw a territory's entire garrison into battle.

And

2) IIRC, the guard ABG has Russes as non-scoring troops, so they wouldn't have objective secured. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong (I probably am).

If that's true then I'm much less eager. I recall advice to the effect of "they don't score because they're vehicles" back in 6th, which is different from actually having a special rule saying they don't score a la Death Company or Fenrisian Wolves. If they do have the latter, then it's very silly because it was written in an edition in which vehicles didn't score (bar Scouring or Big Guns) anyway.

[Vaz]

Dark Eldar HQ's are the oddest.

Haemonculi - really weak/cheap. Grant Power Through Pain bonuses to big melee units like Abominations. Being cheap makes them better for splinter cannon abuse armies.

Lords - good in combat. Expensive. No benefits to melee units outside of raw killing power. Warrior based armies have less points to use thanks to expensive Lords.

Nice.

[Cheesegear]

TI recall advice to the effect of "they don't score because they're vehicles" back in 6th

"...many scenarios may prove more difficult for an army chosen using this list if it does not include enough Armoured Fist squads to hold objectives."

This is not a rule. This a guideline for building your army as in 6th Edition, Vehicles didn't Score. In 7th, this guideline does not apply in the slightest. Do whatever you want. Stuff to look out for since the ABG is using Imperial Guard baselines, not Astra Militarum;

A Company Command Tank doesn't need to buy another friend.
Exterminators and Vanquishers are more expensive.
Demolishers are cheaper.
Punishers are prohibitively expensive (180).
Executioners are a joke (190).
Battle Tanks remain the same, though Sponsons are more expensive, if you're into that sort of thing on a Heavy Tank.
Old Chimeras.
Armoured Sentinels revert to being a horrible investment.
Cheap Vendettas.

There are more differences, of course. But, Leman Russes and Chimeras being the core of your army, should be the biggest selling points.

[Voidhawk]

Tyranids - Mawloc - ... Don't forget that if you're off the table when the game ends, even if you did it voluntarily, you count as a casualty.

Interestingly, this is only the case in Missions where you specifically gain VPs for destroying enemy units (Purge the Alien, Big Guns, etc). In any other mission it doesn't apply, so you can safely hide a Warlord off the table. Presumably using either a Flying transport, or with his own wings. Awesome 'Nids summary btw!

[Drasius]

So, one of the guys mentioned he'd be keen for a game on monday, but would like to play a larger DEldar/Eldar unbound list, around 2000/2250 points. I agreed, but let him know I could scrounge 2k, but that was about it. He brought over a case of Tzeentch units and after some gasbagging and setting up the "board" and having tea, away we went for 2500 of battleforged Tzeentch themed CSM with a few Tzeentch Daemon allies against a 2500 Unbound DEldar force with some Eldar allies.

Spoiler: Floorhammer "Board"

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stormraven is impassable, 6th ed book is a hill, trenches are 4+ cover, bunker and bastion are 4+ ruins, dual citadel paint cans are difficult but can be landed on and the phone books are another hill. Tiles are around 13", so not far off a std 6x4

Lists;

Spoiler: Thousand Sons w/Daemon allies

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165 - ML3, Termie armour, Spell familiar, Mark of Tzeentch

219 - 8x Thousand Sons - Sorceror goes here
242 - 9x Thousand Sons
242 - 9x Thousand Sons

155 - 6x Possessed, MoT

120 - 4x Spawn
170 - Heldrake, Baleflamer
206 - 9x Raptors, 2x Flamer, Champ w/ lightning claw, MoT

175 - Forgefiend w/hades autocannons
175 - Forgefiend w/hades autocannons
162 - 2x Obliterators, MoT, VotLW

95 - Herald of Tzeentch, ML2, Exalted Locus of Conjuration

153 - 17x Pink Horrors

69 - 3x Flamers

150 - 6x Screamers

2498 total



I wanted to test out raptors, possessed and oblits, remainder of the list is reasonably standard for me, if light on troops for the points we were playing. Tzeentch themed as much as the points values allowed.

List is battle-forged

Spoiler: DEldar w/Eldar Allies

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115 - Archon, combat drugs, ghostplate, venomblade, shadowfield

115 - Haemonculous Ancient, scissorhands, shattershard, venomblade

142 - 8x Kabalite Trueborn, Haywire grenades, 2x Splinter cannons, 2x Shredders

180 - 4x Grotesques, abberation, flesh gauntlet, liquifier gun - homunculous goes here

284 - 7x Incubi, Klavex, Demiklaves, onslaught, Raider w/flickerfield & Nightshield

175 - 10x Kabalite warriors, darklance, raider

135 - 5x Witches, hecatrix, Venom w/ Nightshield & Flickerfield.

70 - 6x Witches, haywire grenades

172 - 6x Reaver jetbikes, 2x cluster caltrops

132 - 6x Scourges

125 - Ravager, flickerfields, Nightshield

125 - Ravager, flickerfields, Nightshield

175 - Razorwing, 2x Monoscythe missiles, 2x shatterfield missiles, 2x Dark lances, splintercannon

115 - Talos Pain engine, additional CCW

150 - Farseer, Faolchu's wing, singing spear, spirit stone

90 - 3x Vaaul weapons batteries, shadow weavers - farseer went here

210 - 5x Wraithguard with D-Scythes - jumped into a raider turn 1

2500



He basically wanted to try out the eldar with wraithguard but he doesn't like the spirit seer and also wanted to give the weapon batteries a whirl. It wasn't intended a cheese list (obviously). I am trying to remember his list, so if there are any minor discrepancies, please forgive me.

List is unbound (4 heavy support, wraithguard not troops due to no spirit seer)

Spoiler: Warlord, Powers, deployment, etc

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7th edition, Dawn of war, Big Guns never tire, no maelstrom, 5 objectives.

I win roll off for objectives and place mine in the midfield where there is little cover with 1 towards the top. He puts his midfield in cover and low in cover.

His warlord gets move through cover for all within 12"
Farseer rolls Doom, Death Mission and Mind war.
Archon rolls +1 WS for combat drugs

My warlord got something meh, re-rolled due to battle forged and got army wide move through cover (ruins) and stealth (ruins) which was sort of handy, as my opponent didn't fire on the horrors since they'd be able to GtG in the ruins for a 3+ cover, rerolling 1's.
Sorc #1 got Boon
Sorc #2 got Doombolt (Huzzah!)
Sorc #3 got Boon
Sorceror Lord got Boon, then rolled on Biomancy and got Haemorage (traded for Primaris) and iron Arm.
Pink Horror Squad got Infernal gateway (WC2, 18", blast, D6+4)
Herald got Foreboding (fire overwatch on full BS Grrr...) and Misfortune, which I forgot about the rest of the game.

1/13 for Doombolt so far in 7th :(

I won for picking sides, but chose poorly by picking the top I think.
He won for going first and deployed first.
I failed to sieze.
Night fighting 1st turn.
Mysterious objectives in play, but none of them affected anything.

Spoiler: Turn 1

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The wraithguard embark on a raider. Nothing of note achieved other than some shuffling forward and blasting 3 raptors and 5 thousand sons with the guided vauul battery. My forgefiends set the trend for the rest of the match by shrugging off dark lance after dark lance, 5x 5++ made.

On my turn, I remember precience is 12" not 24" and my forgefiends are out of range. Bugger. I fire everything I've got at the raider with the wraith guard in it and achieve nothing at all. Stupid night fighting. Sorc Lord casts Iron Arm and force. Fail at precience on 4 die, fail Infernal gateway on 6 die.

Spoiler: Turn 2

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His flyer, trueborn and scourges all come on, flyer uses 2 monoscythe missiles, the shard weapon with a bunch of shots and 2 dark lances (1 snapfiring) into a squad on Sons who wonder where all the light rain is coming from. No casualties! The guided Vaaul battery gets 13 wounds on the raptors, 3 at AP2 for a return of 3 dead (only 1 of those to the AP2) and 8 wounds on the Sons for 1 dead.

Trueborn set up shop near the kabalite warriors in the ruined bastion.

Scourges deepstrike down near the stormraven, but scatter backwards 6 inches, taking them out of range.



Reavers turboboost over the screamers and the raiders pour weapons fire into it, but leave 1 alive with a single wound.

The raiders and scourges do a number on the other sons squad, killing 5.

The Grotesques set the melee tone for the game, failing the charge on the spawn.



My turn, drake comes on but the flamers stay in reserve. Sorceror lord casts iron arm again, herald fails precience agian, unti fails flickering fire. The drake heads straight for the reavers since the other flyer has everything else covered. He takes no prisoners. The forgefiends give up hope of getting precience from the herald to blast the crap out of the raider with the wraithguard in it, but remove only a single hullpoint. Stupid Jink. The marines move up to rapidfire the Talos who has snuck up the board while I fire inneffectually at the raider with the oblits.

Sorceror lord casts iron arm again, fails smite on 2 dice, even with re-rolls, herald fails precience again on 4 dice, horrors fail WC2 flickering fire on 5 dice. FFS.

I run the possessed and the raptors up a bit to get into position for a counter charge on the Talos next turn, but the marines shred it with rapid fire.

Lone screamer turbo boosts over the grotesques, taking a wound off one and ending up near the backlines to threaten the weapons batteries next turn (not that I expect him to live that long, but it'll divert fire, and that's what counts).

This is rapidly turning into an ugly hard fought slog for both sides now, but I have 1st blood.

I learn that the owner of the model chooses to allocate wounds to multiple wound models in CC when I charge the grotesques with the spawn and lose combat by 2.

[/SPOILER]

Spoiler: Turn 3

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Raider moves up and dumps out its cargo of wraithguard who proceed to melt my sons squad and all but 3 of my possessed. The witches line up down the side of the hill to try and stay out of LOS. Flyer taunts the drake again by staying a threat but attacks the forgefiend with a pair of shatterfield missiles and the 2 dark lances, taking a single wound off a nearby obliterator and I make 3x 5++'s on the forgefiend.

The venom blasts the lone screamer away, but that means he wasn't shooting anything else.

Farseer perils' herself on 7 dice getting guide off on the weapon battery again but forgetting doom.

Vauul battery scatters off, then back onto the sons, not achieving much.

Grotesques beat the tar out of the remaining spawn before they can hit back.

My turn, Flamer come down, try to go in the openish area near the kabalaite warriors, but scatter toward the stormraven, so they flame the scourges and manage to glance the raider while they're at it. The sons move up beside the wraithguard, the other sons move to delay the grotesques


Drake vector strikes the grotesques (or would if I hadn't forgotten to roll for it) and sets up for a flamer on the vauul batteries and getting away from the nightscythe.

Horrors get WC2 flickering fire off on 4 dice at some witches, but can't hit worth a dam, killing 1 and another 1 from the failed toughness test.

Sorceror lord boons the aspiring sorc, giving the aspiring sorceror +1 toughness, then perils himself on 2 dice getting iron arm off, but rolls a 5 and passes his leadership check.

Noting that the wraithguard are all perfectly lined up, the aspiring sorceror busts out his doombolt and perils himself on 2 dice but rolls a 6, getting a 3++, armourbane and fleshbane for his troubles. Awww yeah! Drops all 5 wraithguard like a boss as well.

The raptors flamer and bolt pistol down the witches. while the sons shoot then charge the raider, wrecking it (yay, armourbane, talk about movie marines!).

Forgefiends trash 1 ravager thanks to daemonforge but can't touch the other one, the oblits take a hull point off the flyer with their assault cannons.

Sons squad charge the grotesques, losing 2, but tying them up.

Things are looking pretty grim at this point for the Tzeentchian forces, and I'm fairly sure I'm goig to be tabled in 2 turns.

Spoiler: Turn 4

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The nightscythe flies off the board, a unit of incubi with the warlord race up to the horrors in a raider, jump out then charge, but only kill 4 due to terrible rolling on my opponents part and amazing rolling on mine. I roll a 5 for instability and only lose a couple more.

Farseer perils again getting guide off and forgets guide. Weapons batteries reward the aspiring sorceror's awesomeness with 2 pie plates of pain, killing all but the sorceror lord and 2 Sons. How very 40k.

The kabalite warriors and remaining ravager finally sneak a pen through on one of the forgefiends and it explodes.

The trueborn ruin the flamers.

The Sons and the grotesques have a slap fight, not really achieving anything.

My turn, the lord ditches his remaining 2 Sons bodyguards, figuring he'll sneak 'round the back and help out the horrors, but fails Iron arm on 2 dice even with rerolls and is left on his own with toughness 4 like a chump. The 2 remaining sons move up to jump up on the "hill" near the stormraven.

I get precience off on 5 dice with my herald.

Heldrake vector strikes a raider (or would have if he'd remembered) and gets into position to burinate the kabalite warriors, leaving 4 alive.

Forgefiend takes another glance from the ravager.

The raptors charge the scourges, butchering them, the possessed charge the trueborn, mulching them in a single round since I roll +1 attacks, +1 init on their chart, but lose 1 in the process.. They consolidate 1" towards the remaining kabalite warriors.

The aspiring sorceror gets killed by the grotesques, and they take a wound, still a slap fight.

The horrors fight the incubi to a standstill, winning combat by 1. yay precience.

Spoiler: Turn 5

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Flier comes back on to little effect, doing 1 glance to the drake. Ravager tags the oblits with all 3 darklances, killing 1, they fail morale with a 10 and flee!

The vauul batteries target the out of LOS lord, scatter off with the 1st shot, then scatter straight back onto him with the 2nd, but saves are made. Not so much when the venom spots him and guns him down. Warlord slain! the kabalite warriors drop the possessed.

The remaining 3 kabalite warriors avenge their trueborn bretheren, dropping the remaining 3 possessed

Witches charge the raptors, challenging the champ, who proceeds to cut down the hecatrix, gaining himself hammer of wrath from the boon table. the witches kill a couple of raptors in exchange.

The grotesques take another wound in return for taking out the remaining Sons. They consolidate toards the horrors

The unthinkable happens and I make every single 5++ save and the horrors with precience pound the crap out of the incubi and warlord, winning by 4, who then fail their morale with an 11! I roll a 6 to chase them down, but he rolls a 5, so it's not enough. They break and flee! Horrors consolidate back towards the objective they've been guarding and put terrain between them and the grotesques.

My turn and my drake goes into hover to get away from the flyer as well as daemonforge roasting roast the remaining kabalite warriors and camp the objective since it's turn 5. Good thing he daemonforged too since I rolled 2x 1's and that would've left the darklance guy alive..

The forgefiend tries for the ravager again, but still nothing goes through, this is turning into a duel for the the ages.

The obliterators rally with a 9, hooray for VotLW!

The 2 remaining Sons that the warlord ditched charge the witches, just making it with a 5, killing 1 more.

Game continues, Doh!

Spoiler: Turn 6

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The nightscythe creeps forward to hugging distance of the drake, but still can't bring him down, managing a pen that stuns the "Crew" that gets ignored 'cause I roll a 2. Yay, daemon.

The ravager backs up and has a go at the drake as well since he's in hover, but 1 fails to glance and the other 2 get 5++'ed



The Vaul's take a chunck out of the horrors, but that just makes it harder for the grotesques to make their charge, which they fail due to the -2 from terrain.

A venom tries to drop the remaining oblit, but despite hitting with everything and wounding with most of it, the oblit (with a single wound left) passes 10 armour saves like a champ.

The witches take out the raptor champ and the 2 thousand sons can't seem to hit the 2 remaining scourges with their 1 attack each.

The warlord continues to flee back towards his table edge...

My turn

The herald gets WC1 flickering fire off at the warlord on a single dice, 5 shots, 3 hits, 2 wounds, killing 2 and putting a pair of wounds on the warlord due to the failed toughness test!

Not getting off that easily, the heldrake remains in hover on the objective, spins around and blasts him with the baleflamer, killing him instantly. Slay the warlord!

The forgefiend remembers he's not used his daemon forge yet and doesn't waste it. 5 hits on the ravager, 3 pens and 2 glances. Finally the slugfest is over.

The obliterator moves back onto his objective, then smashes the venom with his lascannon in retaliation for last turn, wrecking it.

The remaining Sons get wiped out by the scourges who consolidate towards the objective, but not far enough.

Game continues. Argleflargleblargle!

Spoiler: Turn 7

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The farseer recognises that **** just got real, yo. Leaves the weapon battery and moves towards the drake.

Witches also move towards the drake.

Nightscythe can't keep the drake in his arc, so goes after the forgefiend, but despite penning with both lances, 5++ to the rescue.

Weapon batteries fire at the horrors, but again, only succeed in increasing the charge distance for the grotesques, leaving a single horror and the herald alive.

Farseer goes on a death mission, gaining WS10, BS10, I10, armourbane, fleshbane and a couple of extra attacks along with 5 counters. Then loses a token at the end of the psychic phase.



She flings her singing spear at the hovering drake, who has a single hull point left. Rolls a 1. No problem, she's BS10, re-roll that bad boy. Roll another 1. What a chump.

The 2 witches throw their haywires, both pen. 5++ to the rescue on both.

Farseer loses another token at the end of the shooting phase.

Farseer charges, makes it with a 9, then rolls to hit. WS10 vs WS1, 5 attacks, 1 hit.

Pretty terrible, but it's enough, armourbane on Str 3 is enough for a glance. You know how this ends.

Yep, 5++

And the farseer loses a counter.

And my opponent gains Hatred (Farseer) and Hatred (Daemon Engines)

The grotesques move up towards the horrors, but the last barrage from the weapon batteries means they need a 5 through terrain. They roll a 4. Buh bow.

My turn

The drake repositions and toasts the 2 witches and the seer while remaining in hover on the objective.



The oblit and the forgefiend both dakka the nightscythe out of the air, where it proceeds to crash onto my heldrake, but doesn't glance, epic, epic lols avoided.

The Herald tries for WC 1 flickering fire at the raider on the other objective, and succeeds on 1 die, but gets denied!

No more rolling, GG, time to tally it all up!

Spoiler: Final score

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Him
2 objectives at 3 points each
1 heavy support killed
Slay the warlord
Linebreaker

Total = 9

Me
3 objectives at 3 points each (yay, objective secured troops!)
3 heavy support killed
1st blood
Slay the warlord
Linebreaker

Total = 15

Victory for the glory of Tzeentch!

Spoiler: Conclusions and final ramblings

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Those weapon batteries made their points back twice over on their first shot. They are absolute filth and I'm not sure even annihilation barges compare to these for 90 points. I think they killed about 800 points worth of stuff by the end of the game. I see no reason for every competative list not to include these, even as CtA.

Precience is no-where near as good as before due to being WC2, but I'd say it still won me the game, even though I only got it off once.

This game took longer than I expected, with us starting at around 9:45 (after setting up and having tea) and finishing up at around 5:20. I think the end of turn 2 was around 1:30. I actually started writing this up this morning, but literally fell asleep halfway through turn 5.

While both the raptors and possessed didn't see the end of the game, they both performed better than I expected, though not a single fear check was failed the entire game, despite half my army having it and being up against one of the few armies who it can affect. A bit dissapointed with the spawn to be honest, I think they pretty much require MoN or invisibility to be effective, but in their defence, I did forget to roll on their table the 1st time, so that's possibly it.

The aspiring sorceror taking out all 5 wraithguard with doombolt (which no longer loses strength as it passes through things) was pretty memorable.

The horrors causing the incubi to flee was hilarious, and from that point on, my opponent pretty much had dice AIDS while I was making >90% of my 5++ rolls. That was the point where it went from a likely tabling for me to a reasonable chance of my success. The last turn when he failed to kill the drake was the epitome of the way the rolls went. Sometimes, no matter how far the deck is stacked in your favour, the dice gods have other plans.

Again, my horrendous lack of mobility was highlighted, further reinforcing my need to build those 2 rhinos that've been sitting there for ages.

The drake went from minor nuicance to pivitol combatant as the game went on, while the forgefiends simply continued their run of being indestructable killing machines for me game in, game out. I swear, hades fiends are the most under-rated unit in the codex, though my ability to roll a 5++ on demand my have something to do with it.

I also continued a trend where if I'm in a position to win on turn 5, the game keeps going, but thankfully I managed to scrape a win out this time from a game I should have lost bar the dice gods leaning heavily in my favour.

Overall, a brutal battle with very little left on the field from either side. I had a lot of fun, and we both learnt a bunch about 7th.

Side note - While we were talking **** before the game clipping out the bunkers and trenches, the concept of scoring buildings came up, so we checked the rules. In 7th, if you own a building, it is now scoring until an enemy claims it. It doesn't even have to be occupied, if you occupied it earlier and then left, it remains yours (and scoring) until the enemy claims it.

This is true of random buildings on the battlefield as well the any fortifications you take as part of your army. So yeah, take a 75 point bastion and whack an objective on the top floor, job done. Hilarious.

[Wraith]

Interestingly, this is only the case in Missions where you specifically gain VPs for destroying enemy units (Purge the Alien, Big Guns, etc). In any other mission it doesn't apply, so you can safely hide a Warlord off the table. Presumably using either a Flying transport, or with his own wings. Awesome 'Nids summary btw!

Noted, and thank you

[Cheesegear]

165 - ML3, Termie armour, Spell familiar, Mark of Tzeentch
[...]
155 - 6x Possessed, MoT

You aren't using Relics, and are using Possessed. It bugs me that you can't use Crimson Slaughter when Allying with Daemons.

And my opponent gains Hatred (Farseer) and Hatred (Daemon Engines)

Preferred Enemy (Dice)?

I see no reason for every competative list not to include these, even as CtA.

I'm a huge fan of Shadow Weavers. Unfortunately, they have 'Not Fire Prisms' Syndrome.

The drake went from minor nuicance to pivitol combatant as the game went on, while the forgefiends simply continued their run of being indestructable killing machines for me game in, game out.

As someone who regularly fields Land Raiders in 7th, I'm actually more afraid of Maulerfiends. But, that said, I recognise my bias. I'm sure if I didn't field at least two AV14 models every game, Forgefiends would terrify me the same as they do everyone else. My backup army, unfortunately, is Grey Knights. But, if my opponent can flash-roll five 5+es in a turn, I'm sure I'd be mad too.

So yeah, take a 75 point bastion and whack an objective on the top floor, job done. Hilarious.

That's one rule change of 7th that I'm really, really not a fan of. You can put Objectives on Buildings and upper-levels of Ruins now. What? People still run Bikes in 7th? Really?

[Eldan]

Huh. You couldn't put them there before? Apparently, we did that wrong for years.

[Drasius]

You aren't using Relics, and are using Possessed. It bugs me that you can't use Crimson Slaughter when Allying with Daemons.

I'd be more using it for Div, but then, my Heralds give me that anyway, plus they've got cheap pseudo fearless troops.

Preferred Enemy (Dice)?

I'd probably give him the Rage USR as well. The only thing that makes it worse is that I couldn't find my Tzeentch dice, so I was using his. I kinda felt like I should give them back. I reckon he might have to make a special example out of those ones though.

I'm a huge fan of Shadow Weavers. Unfortunately, they have 'Not Fire Prisms' Syndrome.

And them being 30 points each doesn't make up for that? Especially when they're allies? Are prisms any good when you're taking just 1 BTW?

As someone who regularly fields Land Raiders in 7th, I'm actually more afraid of Maulerfiends. But, that said, I recognise my bias. I'm sure if I didn't field at least two AV14 models every game, Forgefiends would terrify me the same as they do everyone else. My backup army, unfortunately, is Grey Knights. But, if my opponent can flash-roll five 5+es in a turn, I'm sure I'd be mad too.

Everytime I've used them, they fail their charge, fail to hit/pen/glance or get smashed before they strike, so while I acknowledge they are awesome on paper, I just don't have any luck with them. Needs more helbrute I think.

Over the 7 turns, I count that I had, at the minimum, 23 dark lance hits on either the fiends or the drake for a total of 4 unsaved. That's just silly.

That's one rule change of 7th that I'm really, really not a fan of. You can put Objectives on Buildings and upper-levels of Ruins now. What? People still run Bikes in 7th? Really?

Someone was telling me that there is no rule saying bikes/cavalry can't go up stairs now. Is that true? If not, do you have a page reference I can show them please?

Also, I take it I shouldn't be expecting to ever repeat breaking the Incubi + archon with Horrors via combat res in CC again? What sort of damage should I be looking at in a combat round the next time I get charged with 7 incubi and archon? Total unit destruction or just heavy casualties? What about if they're charging MEQ's?

[Voidhawk]

Someone was telling me that there is no rule saying bikes/cavalry can't go up stairs now. Is that true? If not, do you have a page reference I can show them please?

...Huh. You are correct, no such rule seems to exist any more. I've checked the Movement section, the Bikes/Cavalry section, and the Terrain section, and it is conspicuously absent. Thunderwolves have apparently learnt how to use ladders.

[Requizen]

Rules lawyer question:

When a unit armed with assault/defensive grenades makes a shooting attack, one model can choose to throw a grenade, rather than using another shooting weapons.

Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each shooting phase

If a Monstrous Creature only has 1 shooting weapon but also has grenades, can it throw a grenade and shoot in the same turn?

[Adrastos42]

For what it's worth, no one in the campaign is playing Ultramarines either, but I'll try to come up with an alternative so as not to step on his toes anyway just on general principle.

Maybe something along the lines of rolling more dice than you get powers, and picking what you want from that?

[Darthteej]

...Huh. You are correct, no such rule seems to exist any more. I've checked the Movement section, the Bikes/Cavalry section, and the Terrain section, and it is conspicuously absent. Thunderwolves have apparently learnt how to use ladders.

"Quickly, Shas'u'i, we can escape the wolves on the floor of our command building."

*the two Firewarriors quickly climb up a ladder*

*sound of growling*

"How...how did it get up herAGHHHHH"

[LeSwordfish]

Preferred Enemy (Dice)?

This is the point where we say "New thread title!!!" isn't it?

[Yaktan]

With the shadow weavers, was he using large blasts or blasts? In the book it is large blasts, but the errata drops them down to blasts.

With the bikes and stairs, I do not think there was any rule against them going up stairs last edition either, so it always confused me when people made references to that.