Multiclass into monk

[brian c]

So i'm making a 5th level character, and I want to take a few levels of a class, either paladin or cleric, and then after that take levels of monk. This is for a custom world that I'm told will kinda resemble Forgotten Realms, and I know the DM is pretty open to allowing things. My character's deity is Pelor. My question is, do you think I should have classes in Paladin or in Cleric, and how many? (No more than 3)

[Solo]

Straight cleric will be more powerful, but if you're going to multi class, I'd go for a Paladin/Monk.

3 levels of Paladin for extra HP and good BAB and saves, and then monk for special abilities maybe?

Does anyone know if that would that work?

[Skyserpent]

I've done that, it's pretty fun. Ascetic Knight from Complete Adventurer makes this even better.

[Arceliar]

If it's no more than 3, I'd say paladin. My reasoning for this is that as a cleric you'd only get 2nd level spells, which is only semi-useful. Paladin for 3 levels gets you Detect Evil at will, immunity to fear, and immunity to disease. The cleric level 2 spells are useful, but odds are they'd overlap with whatever your other party's casters have. Both classes normally focus on healing, which monks can do to themselves anyway, so unless your party is without primary casters and plans on making you Brew Potion day and night, I really see no significant advantage to cleric.

*Edit: Please note a 4th level of paladin is enough that if you went all monk your base attack bonus would hit 16, and thus another attack, at 20th level. If you plan on taking it that far, it might be worth it to grab the 4th level of paladin...

[brian c]

Straight cleric will be more powerful, but if you're going to multi class, I'd go for a Paladin/Monk.

3 levels of Paladin for extra HP and good BAB and saves, and then monk for special abilities maybe?

Does anyone know if that would that work?

I don't just want the most powerful build period. I wanted to play a character who is very religious, and starts out as cleric/paladin but decides to become a monk instead. After that, I want to consider if Paladin/Monk or Cleric/Monk is a better build. I want the character to be primarily melee, but with healing capacity.

I should also mention that I'm doing vow of poverty.

[ishi]

I'm inclined to say cleric/monk, if only for MAD avoidance. If you're only taking a few levels, most of the useful paladin abilities you get are going to be based on Charisma. Unless you really want a mounted monk...

Cleric levels will only really cost you 1 or 2 points of BAB, a few hit points, and martial weapons, and you'll get low level stuff, like Divine Favor, with a stat you are going to need as a monk anyways.

[brian c]

I guess it depends on what I roll for stats; if I can have high charisma then I'd definitely do Paladin, if not then I think I'd lean towards cleric

[cupkeyk]

Unless you you take domains that don't scale with level, a single level dip in Cleric is okay. Take domains that give feats(War, Metal, Planning) or non-scaling abilities, like Luck's reroll once a day ability or Fate's Uncanny Dodge.

Otherwise, paladin is a better choice, especially if you roll several high stats.

[Amiria]

If you want to go the paladin route, then there is a feat that allows you to switch the paladin's special abilities (i.e. Divine Grace !) from Charisma to Wisdom, so no MAD issues. If only I could remember the name of this feat ...

[Bears With Lasers]

Serenity or Serene Grace, I forget which, Amiria.

Brian, you should check out the Sacred Fist PrC in the Complete Divine. Then you can be a cleric-who-became-a-monk but still, y'know, have a spell progression.

[Amiria]

Thanks, BWL.

Imo, Sacred Fist has one big issue: No fighting with weapons at all, including ranged weapons ! So for ranged combat they are entirely dependent on spells. And it is neither wise nor is their spell progression good enough to devote most of their spell slots to ranged combat spells.

[Shadow]

Actually I have a Sacred Fist that I'm playing on these boards if you'd like to take a look at him.
Brother Alik Hollowleaf
Incidentally, he's the only healer in the party.

[Rigeld2]

Imo, Sacred Fist has one big issue: No fighting with weapons at all, including ranged weapons ! So for ranged combat they are entirely dependent on spells. And it is neither wise nor is their spell progression good enough to devote most of their spell slots to ranged combat spells.

For normal characters - Wands.
But since hes a VoP monk thats out. I think the class is kinda meh except for flavor value, but it has a decent amount of that.

[Telonius]

I would recommend levels of Paladin if you're going to take VoP. VoP gives you bonus Exalted feats, and there are an extremely limited number of useful Exalted feats if you're a Monk. After about 12th level or so, you'll only be able to take feats that let you, for example, glow in the dark. (Seriously. Nimbus of Light.) Taking levels of Paladin allows you to take other feats like Exalted Smite, Exalted Turning, and Gift of Grace.

[Khantalas]

Nimbus of Light and Holy Radiance won me a battle with a vampire. Admittedly, there was a Cure Moderate Wounds (by me) and a Cure Light Wounds (by the silly bard trying to heal the vampire) involved.

And a turn undead.

[brian c]

I would recommend levels of Paladin if you're going to take VoP. VoP gives you bonus Exalted feats, and there are an extremely limited number of useful Exalted feats if you're a Monk. After about 12th level or so, you'll only be able to take feats that let you, for example, glow in the dark. (Seriously. Nimbus of Light.) Taking levels of Paladin allows you to take other feats like Exalted Smite, Exalted Turning, and Gift of Grace.

yeah, that's what I was thinking too, is that to make good use out of those exalted feats I need high CHA, although I might be able to convince my DM to let me take general feats instead, or non-combat oriented general feats

[elliott20]

here's another thing that will make the paladin levels a little better. Smite + stunning fist is like getting a divine slap in the face.

of course, since you're not going to do too many levels of paladin, the smite is not going to be all THAT great. But yeah, if you get two good stats, one of which can go to charisma, divine grace and then some other divine feats put together can make you a very good one-shot damage machine that is also quite hard to kill on the field.

[Jayabalard]

I don't just want the most powerful build period. I wanted to play a character who is very religious, and starts out as cleric/paladin but decides to become a monk instead. After that, I want to consider if Paladin/Monk or Cleric/Monk is a better build. I want the character to be primarily melee, but with healing capacity.

I should also mention that I'm doing vow of poverty.

Just my opinion... but I personally don't see a monk in D&D as a religious figure at all, certainly nothing like a Cleric or Paladin. There's a big difference between Kwai Chang Caine (an eastern monk like the former) and Friar Tuck (a western monk) . So you may want to tighten up the RP aspects of that a little bit.

[Telonius]

Friar Tuck was clearly a Drunken Master. Generally agreed, though. There's nothing that says your pantheon doesn't have martial artists, just make sure that the fluff in your particular campaign makes sense.

[elliott20]

meh, I always felt the d&d monk was just very out of place compared to the rest of the d&d casts.

when it comes to the topic of "divine beings", I think monks are probably more concerned with the "being" part rather than the "divine" part.

And that, in my mind, in a deity-centric (is that a word?) religious viewpoint, almost makes the monk just a very lousy, self-absorbed worshipper rather than the devout servant that the cleric or the paladin is.

of course, that could be the fluff text for the real life buddhist monks...

you could always argue that the monk in question just follows a different sect of Pelor who has a different interpretation as to how to best serve Pelor.

[Roderick_BR]

A monk/paladin would get you something like the paladins in Saphire City in the OoTS comic. That Evasion/Divine Grace combo is pretty interesting to play.
Get monk 2/ paladin 3, get Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword/Katana), and you can act all samurai like.
You won't need much Wisdom, since you can wear armor as a paladin. You would just lose Flurry of Blows and Fast Movement. The armor protection will be highter than the defense bonuses the monk would get.

[elliott20]

yeah, but having spells is kind of nice.

[brian c]

Just my opinion... but I personally don't see a monk in D&D as a religious figure at all, certainly nothing like a Cleric or Paladin. There's a big difference between Kwai Chang Caine (an eastern monk like the former) and Friar Tuck (a western monk) . So you may want to tighten up the RP aspects of that a little bit.

well, i want to play this monk as very pious and Good, sort of a wandering nomad helping whoever he comes across. He started out as a paladin (or cleric) to serve his god (Pelor) but became jaded by the bureaucracy, superfluous traditions etc of that class and opted for a simplistic life as a monk instead. i think you can look at d&d monks as similar to buddhists, trying to perfect themselves and not being preachy to anyone else (as paladins have a reputation for). That's how I plan on RP-ing this monk anyway.

Let me say again (or in better words) what I want this character to be:

A melee character, but not overpowered (there might be a barbarian in the party, so i won't have to be doing a whole lot of damage)
unarmed
unarmored
Vow of Poverty
able to heal, but not dependent on spells (might be the only healer in the party, but there should be an arcane caster too)
maximum of 3 non-monk levels (out of my first 5 that I'm making now, any other class i take would be some sort of monk variant like sacred fist)

those are my requirements. I appreciate all suggestions, but i won't consider dropping any of those things, even if i could do more damage with a holy avenger, or even if you think VoP is underpowered, etc.

[Person_Man]

Monk 2/Cleric 4/Sacred Fist X. Sacred Fist gets full BAB and Cleric spell progression. What's not to love?

or

Paladin 5/Monk X with Ascetic Knight (Comp Adventurer) and the Serenity feat (Dungeon Compendium, switches Paladin Cha bonuses to Wis).

I suggest Paladin 5 instead of Paladin 3 because Paldin 5 gets Turn Undead and the special mount. There are a ton of feats that let you burn Turn Undead uses for various things - healing, extra damage, etc. And using the PHB II varient, you can trade in your mount for the Charging Smite ability. And since you're using Ascetic Knight, your Monk and Paladin levels stack to determine unarmed damage and Smite damage.