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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    My fave has to be the charismatic manipulator using everything and everyone to my advantage. You see playing good characters all the time doesn't give me the chance to try something like this, i would love to frame another country, city, plane, attacking place 1 and then selling weapons to place 1 to fight back at place 2 then after the attack on place 2 sell weapons to them aswell. I can make a fortune.
    MERGE, HESHIN, COMBINE, TRANSFORM, BIOBOOST, CHANGE... Words that mean so much.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybren View Post
    He kills people. He kills them. He tried killing spiderman. He is not Good.
    When he tried to kill Spiderman, that was back when he thought Spiderman had killed a friend of his. He's still Good, though, because he only kills criminals. Paladins kill people--does that mean they're not Good?
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    Kyrian, describing my very own Fourth Empire...
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    ...god damned moron organizations full of morons...

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    Even better. Boy from Turkey and girl from UK wake up in Vegas married to one another. We'll call it Dude, Where's My Country?

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    A ruthless person who understands the way the world works, isn't going to try to change how it works, just going to work inside it to his own ends. Often cynical but not depressing cynical, this is the way the world works deal with it.

    Often machiavellian but not necessary always.
    Stupendous Man drawn by Linklele

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    Quote Originally Posted by J_Muller View Post
    When he tried to kill Spiderman, that was back when he thought Spiderman had killed a friend of his. He's still Good, though, because he only kills criminals. Paladins kill people--does that mean they're not Good?
    Paladins don't use the law as an excuse to kill.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    A ruthless person who understands the way the world works, isn't going to try to change how it works, just going to work inside it to his own ends. Often cynical but not depressing cynical, this is the way the world works deal with it.

    Often machiavellian but not necessary always.

    kind of like Blackadder
    MERGE, HESHIN, COMBINE, TRANSFORM, BIOBOOST, CHANGE... Words that mean so much.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybren View Post
    Paladins don't use the law as an excuse to kill.
    ... and neither does The Punisher. In fact, he sort of kills people despite the law.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkerInPlayground View Post
    I'm surprised that you didn't include Raistlin Majere in that line-up, you heretic. Good example of lawful evil.
    I'm going to have to disagree about Raistin being Lawful Evil. He doesn't protect the weak out of any sense of honor. The only weak person he 'protected' was Bupu, and that was payment for her giving him the emerald and the spell book. He pays people back not out of honor, but because he wants to be indebted to nobody.

    As for his other non-lawful traits, he's jealous, he's insulting (especially towards Caramon), he's bitter at his physical condition, and when he eventually ends up being a god he consumes everything, including himself, before the timeline changed. Hell, he killed his own brother during the Test (granted, it was an illusion, but he didn't know that).

    Definitely Chaotic Evil.
    Last edited by Wippit Guud; 2007-02-09 at 01:49 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wippit Guud View Post
    I'm going to have to disagree about Raistin being Lawful Evil. He doesn't protect the weak out of any sense of honor. The only weak person he 'protected' was Bupu, and that was payment for her giving him the emerald and the spell book. He pays people back not out of honor, but because he wants to be indebted to nobody.

    As for his other non-lawful traits, he's jealous, he's insulting (especially towards Caramon), he's bitter at his physical condition, and when he eventually ends up being a god he consumes everything, including himself, before the timeline changed. Hell, he killed his own brother during the Test (granted, it was an illusion, but he didn't know that).

    Definitely Chaotic Evil.
    How can you be so sure? I could see each of those points hinting at Neutral Evil. He cares about himself and that's about it. He will do anything if it serves him and he thinks he can get away with it. His designs for the world didn't include destroying everything, that was just the natural turn of events if he started eliminating all other power for himself. Ultimate ambition doesn't necessarily point out Chaotic Evil.

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    Chaotic because he does that those moments when he completely flop-flops... exposing charlatan clerics, saving Solace from a plague, NOT killing Tas...

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wippit Guud View Post
    Chaotic because he does that those moments when he completely flop-flops... exposing charlatan clerics, saving Solace from a plague, NOT killing Tas...
    He exposed judith and belzor for several perfectly logical reasons.
    1) he held a grudge against judith

    2)doing so would distinguish himself as a competent mage

    3) this is back when he had traces of a concience

    He helped the people of solace because of the high he got from holding power over people and to further his experience in herblore and medicine

    He didn't kill Tas, because he would have earned the distrust and distaste of the rest of the party, because he used Tas as a character study for kender, and because he above most could exibit some kind of control over the little blighter.

    Again, I say Neutral Evil.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    J_Muller's Avatar

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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    Punisher is not evil. He kills criminals. 'Nuff said.
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    Kyrian, describing my very own Fourth Empire...
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    ...god damned moron organizations full of morons...

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    Even better. Boy from Turkey and girl from UK wake up in Vegas married to one another. We'll call it Dude, Where's My Country?

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    Quote Originally Posted by J_Muller View Post
    Punisher is not evil. He kills criminals. 'Nuff said.

    By that logic, a criminal has no rights whatsoever. Furthermore, if you rape a rapist, you're not evil.

    ...yeah, no.
    I don't think he's evil, but he sure as hell ain't a saint.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    Unfortunately, Strahd von Zarovich (note the lower-case V, people!) is Lawful Evil. The Punisher is Lawful Neutral at best.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hallavast View Post
    ... and neither does The Punisher. In fact, he sort of kills people despite the law.
    So he's definitely not lawful. And he's a murderer who honestly believes he is qualified to be judge, jury, and executioner.

    Yeah, we're talking Neutral Evil with a good dose of Crazy.

    Having good intentions or outcomes don't mean you aren't Evil; they just mean you're good at rationalizing.

    Unless he also stages in-depth investigations and offers the accused a chance to defend him- or herself (I almost doubt he's killed a single woman, though, knowing Marvel...) before he starts blasting... I don't know, I don't read Marvel comics lately.


    Raistlin: Neutral Evil, maybe Chaotic. He's so selfish he'll destroy everything and everyone for personal power and what he thinks will satisfy him. He's organized, obviously - highly intelligent and successful people are often organized. That's not Lawful in itself. He's got a weak spot for certain kinds of individuals - that's because he's still human. Being Evil doesn't mean you lack normal human emotions.

    He definitely committed some good acts, but that's teardrops against an ocean in the alignment scales. The character was a manipulative, amoral, ruthless monster who hated himself for accidentally caring for someone. The way Raistlin leaves Crysania in the Abyss says everything about him. His thinking was: "I got everything that I could from you. You're useless now. I don't even have time for pity."

  15. - Top - End - #75
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    You can play a char that is a "bad" person with a code of honor. I have a friend with a brutal fighter that would mercilessly kill enemies in the most gruesome ways, and not help people without demanding a reward, or risking too much for something not worth. However, he never broke a promise, and never left his true friends (or only friends) behind.
    In this particular character, he would also never "murder" people outside of battle or fight non-adventurers/non-soldiers, but once in the battle field he was a killing machine.
    Other kind, as was noted, is the manipulative one. He may be cold and distant, or act all charismatic like. He can blackmail people, or "suggests" courses of actions in a way that'll benefit him. He won't harm people on purpose, but if it's needed, it will not stop him.

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  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    Quote Originally Posted by J_Muller View Post
    Punisher is not evil. He kills criminals. 'Nuff said.
    Again, I've only seen the movie. My prime example of why he would qualify as evil is the final confrontation with the BBEG. He puts a mine in a person's outstretched hand, to be triggered when they can no longer hold it up. Why does he do this? Not only is it cruel and unusual punishment, but the punishment isn't for the victim at all. Whatever the BBEG's son may have done (and I missed the very beginning of the movie), the Punisher doesn't kill him for his crimes, he kills him for the crimes of his father. In cold blood.

    That is evil.

    Unless the son commits some supremely foul act, of equal proportion to the Punisher's retribution, in the beginning of the movie. Actually even then I would maintain that anyone who delves out cruel and unusual punishment as a matter of course, is evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas
    Lawful alignment doesn't necessarily imply social complience - but it implies views that put community above the individual in some way. The community in question could be fairly small or obscure, and it doesn't have to be the largest around (i.e. you can be Lawful without complying with the standards or laws of the kingdom you live in).
    How about "it implies views that put [some other entity/concept] above the individual in some way."

    For example, high ranked devils are LE. But to what community do they heed? Their only desire is for power, and not even their superiors are exempt from their machinations in its pursuit. They most certainly heed tradition, and will honour their oaths even to their own detriment, but not for the sake of others. It is simply the framework in which they subjugate any and every creature or useful entity they possibly can.

    So yes, I think implicit in a lawful mindset is a wilful subjugation to an ideal, I just don't think that ideal needs to have anything to do with community.

    The SRD description opens up with, "A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts." (emphasis mine) Nowhere does it say that the codes and laws he personally holds true are derived from others. It mentions that "he is loath to break laws," but "this reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds."

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Viscount Einstrauss's Avatar

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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    I've got an idea for a LE anti-hero that I'm gonna try some day soon. He's an assassin that kills people that offend his morale code, often in brutal and malicious ways. His code is actually very clean looking- he never tells a lie (believes that liars are beneath him), respects authority (though sometimes he has to go above it for an ends, but he tries not to), never harms innocents or people he perceives as good, and spends most of his disposable quest income on helping people. However, his methods for dealing with evildoers are horrifying, and he gets more then a little sadistic glee out of torturing them to death. He also worships Pelor, for that unusual final twist.

    So, he's the evil character that easily meshes with any predominantly good party that doesn't have a paladin. Except when the other PC's do something that earns his ire.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of adventurers, for you are expendable and full of EXP.


    Overblown fantasy action/adventure/comedy/drama/spoof. Updates M/W/F

  18. - Top - End - #78
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    Quote Originally Posted by J_Muller View Post
    When he tried to kill Spiderman, that was back when he thought Spiderman had killed a friend of his. He's still Good, though, because he only kills criminals. Paladins kill people--does that mean they're not Good?
    Punisher tried to kill Spiderman because he saw a news report saying that Spiderman had killed someone. Unless I'm misremembering he didn't do any investigation or try to talk to Spidey before shooting at him. He decided to try and kill a hero based on J Jonah Jameson's word.

    That's pretty ungood.

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
    So he's definitely not lawful. And he's a murderer who honestly believes he is qualified to be judge, jury, and executioner.

    Yeah, we're talking Neutral Evil with a good dose of Crazy.

    Having good intentions or outcomes don't mean you aren't Evil; they just mean you're good at rationalizing.

    Unless he also stages in-depth investigations and offers the accused a chance to defend him- or herself (I almost doubt he's killed a single woman, though, knowing Marvel...) before he starts blasting... I don't know, I don't read Marvel comics lately.
    WAIT. Back up. He's "crazy" because he "honestly believes he is qualified to be judge, jury, and executioner"?

    No. He's just not afraid.

    The reason most superheroes, Batman, Superman, Spiderman (not sure about him) don't kill is because they do not believe they are qualified to be judge, jury, and executioner. This is because they are afraid that becoming judge, jury, and executioner will make them just like the criminals they fight. The reason Batman never kills the Joker is not because the Joker is crazy, it is because he is afraid that killing the Joker will put him on the same level. Sinking down to that level is the one thing Batman is afraid of.

    The Punisher, on the other hand, is not afraid. He is willing to tread that line between villain and hero. He is not afraid of becoming evil. He is simply confident that he will not. That is why the Punisher is willing to kill criminals. He knows they are guilty. He makes the decision that they deserve to die. He even doesn't kill people who he doesn't know are criminals.

    This is also why, for example, in a DC/Marvel crossover, Batman lets the Joker go free to stop the Punisher from killing him. Batman considers the Punisher to be just as bad as the criminals he fights.

    So, don't ever say the Punisher is Evil, or Crazy. He's just not as afraid as the rest.


    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    Punisher tried to kill Spiderman because he saw a news report saying that Spiderman had killed someone. Unless I'm misremembering he didn't do any investigation or try to talk to Spidey before shooting at him. He decided to try and kill a hero based on J Jonah Jameson's word.

    That's pretty ungood.
    Actually, he tried to kill Spiderman after one of Spiderman's enemies killed an ally of the Punisher's and framed Spiderman. At the time he started shooting at Spiderman, he was sure that Spiderman was a criminal. Once he learned he had been tricked, he joined forces with Spiderman to get revenge on the villain that actually killed his ally.
    Last edited by J_Muller; 2007-02-09 at 06:28 PM. Reason: Kamikasei posted...
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    Fiscal Mereor, by NecroPaladin.



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    Kyrian, describing my very own Fourth Empire...
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    ...god damned moron organizations full of morons...

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    Even better. Boy from Turkey and girl from UK wake up in Vegas married to one another. We'll call it Dude, Where's My Country?

  20. - Top - End - #80
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    Quote Originally Posted by J_Muller View Post
    Actually, he tried to kill Spiderman after one of Spiderman's enemies killed an ally of the Punisher's and framed Spiderman. At the time he started shooting at Spiderman, he was sure that Spiderman was a criminal. Once he learned he had been tricked, he joined forces with Spiderman to get revenge on the villain that actually killed his ally.
    I vaguely remember this... I was thinking of Punisher coming after Spidey after Gwen Stacy's death. Was it that they fought once when the Jackal framed him, and then Punisher came after him again when he was under suspicion for Gwen?

    Anyway, as to the rest of your post, I don't buy it. I think not being afraid to take the law into your own hands to the point of deciding who deserves death and then dealing it out, regardless of the law, is evil. Batman doesn't hold back from killing because he's afraid that it might make him like the criminals; he thinks it would and that's what he doesn't want.

    Not being afraid that you might be wrong - and taking such irreversible actions as execution under that certainty - is a kind of madness in itself.

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    There are many facets. Alignment isn't personality, but worldview. Some good examples are above. Another example of the LE worldview in action:

    Morrowind - The Morag Tong: The Morag Tong is a guild of assassins. They receive official writs of assassinations for people in the province. These writs are essentially "Get Out of Jail Free" cards that all guards and officers recognize. Typically, they are taken out against rivals of differing Houses, but in some cases they are taken out as serving Justice where normal means have failed.

    It is Lawful in that it serves a service in society. Writs allow the Houses to fight each other peaceably without the drestructive chaos of war. It delivers justice at times. It is recognized by those whose job it is to uphold the Law. It is Evil in that it the Tong serves order by taking lives. They are only limited by Writ, not by whether a person is truly deserving of death or not. The guiltless are as equally condemned by Writ as the guiltless, and the Tong Assassin sees this as perfectly fine. He is providing a service to his country. The assassin sees his position as honorable, even holds to a code to preserve that honor. It doesn't change the fact that he is willing to kill his fellow citizens for payment.
    "Everything is better on fire."

  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    Actually, I think it was whoever made equipment for the Punisher, but it was the Jackal who was the villain. I'm not sure about anything involving Gwen Stacy, though.


    And I didn't say he wasn't afraid he might be wrong. He's just confident in his ability not to become a criminal. Not being afraid to take the law into his own hands doesn't make him crazy, anyway. The Punisher simply sees something that needs to be done, and does it. In his case, it's killing murderers.
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    Kyrian, describing my very own Fourth Empire...
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    ...god damned moron organizations full of morons...

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    Even better. Boy from Turkey and girl from UK wake up in Vegas married to one another. We'll call it Dude, Where's My Country?

  23. - Top - End - #83
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    Quote Originally Posted by J_Muller View Post
    He's just confident in his ability not to become a criminal.
    Given that he breaks the law to murder people, his confidence is misplaced.

  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    You know what I mean.
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    Fiscal Mereor, by NecroPaladin.



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    Kyrian, describing my very own Fourth Empire...
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrian View Post
    ...god damned moron organizations full of morons...

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    Even better. Boy from Turkey and girl from UK wake up in Vegas married to one another. We'll call it Dude, Where's My Country?

  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    Mind if I bring this back to RPG's? I played a LE kobold psion named SythRyss in 3.0 from 3rd through 18th level so I have some suggestions you might find useful.

    1> Few people with this alignment are going to think of themselves as evil. There are obvious exceptions (Darth Vader being one that comes to mind), but many villains would consider themselves the hero of the story if they were writing it. Consider a religion in which the followers view God & the Devil as being equal in power, and that it was actually the Devil that created this imperfect, chaotic world. The 'benevolant, loving' being the rest of the world worships is in fact the evil one... and you are among those with the courage to live with the truth.

    2> The individual believes in the rule of law -- which likely differs a great deal from the established law. Doom (from comics) is a good example here. He makes great use of diplomatic immunity, will keep his word to a fault, and views his honor & nobility as two of the reasons he's uniquely qualified to rule.

    With SythRyss this affected his attitude toward using abilities like Suggestion and Dominate. Viewing everything from the perspective of a series of master/slave relationships, in his mind if you are weak enough to succumb to his powers all that's really happening is that he's enforcing his superiority over you.

    3> A common, easy personality trait to attach to this alignment is selfishness. My usual DM often uses the terms Lawful Altruist, Lawful Selfish, and Lawful Anal for example. It's also bothersomely close to being a cliche. One of the things I did with SythRyss was to make his loyalty to his adventuring companions part of his Lawful code. In play he came across as being fiercely loyal, almost altruist -- with the perpetual background that in his mind they were keeping him alive.
    • Sometimes, the knights are the monsters
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  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    I said I'd continue my analysis of the main starwars characters. So here's Leia.

    Leia is lawful good, she’s the character that won’t leave a man behind, she gives up her own wants and desires in order to lead the rebellion. In our first introduction in A New Hope she is a strong, intelligent woman who can easily match wits with both Vader and Tarkin. But she ends up playing the role of damsel in distress for the heroes to rescue. She can think outside the box and takes charge when Luke’s (chaotic) plans fall through. Thusly they jump into the trash compactor, escaping capture. We see her point of view after their escape from the Death Star, she clearly gets fed up with Han’s neutrality. She wants Han to fully commit to the rebellion but she’s unable to convince him of their cause.

    In Empire Strikes back, we see a strong leader with a devotion to her duty and the cause of the rebellion. She sees the lawful good in Han, a character that at least starts out as true neutral. She sees Han as someone who can greatly benefit the rebellion, while Han sees her as a beautiful young woman.
    Though she does fall in love with him, she refuses to give into her feeling and desires for quite some time. Finally confessing her love to him just before he’s frozen in carbonite, but I’m getting ahead of myself.
    She doesn’t want to close the shield doors on Luke and Han but she has to, or risk putting everyone else in danger, thusly she has to put the lives of two people she really cares about in greater risk. During the attack on Echo base, Leia is one of the last to leave, staunchly refusing to abandon her post when the entire place starts coming down on everyone’s head. Han practically had to drag her away from her station. At cloud city, leia doesn’t understand the reasons behind Vader’s torture. Because she doesn’t understand the power of the force, she thinks Vader is acting under orders and expects him to kill them all, knowing that’s what the emperor would want. But Vader has his own agenda and Leia doesn’t realize it. She sees Vader as nothing more than a tool of the Emperor (Like Count Dooku or Darth maul before him).

    During Return of the Jedi Leia gives into her desires and helps spring Han from Jabba’s palace. Taking on the roll of damsel in distress, (noticing a pattern here) but instead of waiting to be rescued she takes matters into her own hands and escapes on her own, taking out Jabba and picking up the droids while she was at it.
    Leia takes the roll of warrior more seriously and volunteers for the assault on the shield generator. She bravely chases down the scout troopers, while it looks like a chaotic act, it isn’t, because she knows they’ll alert the empire to their presence so they must be stopped.
    During the big fight, she keeps her eyes on their objective amidst all the chaos and tries to get into the bunker, enlisting the help of the droids.

  27. - Top - End - #87
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    Quote Originally Posted by J_Muller View Post
    You know what I mean.
    I do, I just think you're wrong. And to bring this back to the subject of the thread, I think a character who appoints himself judge, jury and executioner to go out and decide without reference to any authority that certain people are criminals deserving of death - and then kill them - all while evading the law - would pretty clearly be Lawful (upholding what he sees as right) Evil (killing mercilessly and disproportionately).

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    But the difference between the Punisher and LE is that an LE person would be pursuing an agenda related to their own personal gain. The Punisher does what he does because he desires to save people.
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    Fiscal Mereor, by NecroPaladin.



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    Kyrian, describing my very own Fourth Empire...
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrian View Post
    ...god damned moron organizations full of morons...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tormsskull View Post
    Even better. Boy from Turkey and girl from UK wake up in Vegas married to one another. We'll call it Dude, Where's My Country?

  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    Quote Originally Posted by J_Muller View Post
    But the difference between the Punisher and LE is that an LE person would be pursuing an agenda related to their own personal gain. The Punisher does what he does because he desires to save people.
    Well, I disagree. Note that several posters have mentioned such examples as assassins' guilds as being LE; an assassin (in the original hashashim, or ninja, mold) may not get any reward for his actions, undertaking evil for the sake of honour or an oath. Consider also the Operative from Serenity, also cited in this thread, who exemplifies the ascetic committing evil for an ideology.

    What the Punisher does is evil. He murders people. The people he murders may be evil, but that doesn't change what he does. Punisher is like a poorly-played paladin carried to extremes, convinced that he's defending law and goodness but committing evil to do so.

    I know it's hardly proof, but I was amused to note when I looked the character up on Wikipedia that he was listed under fictional sociopaths and fictional serial killers, but not fictional superheroes.

  30. - Top - End - #90
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    Default Re: How would you roleplay a LE?

    If it wasn't a conflict of interest at this point, I'd be fixing that right now.
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    Fiscal Mereor, by NecroPaladin.



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    Kyrian, describing my very own Fourth Empire...
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrian View Post
    ...god damned moron organizations full of morons...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tormsskull View Post
    Even better. Boy from Turkey and girl from UK wake up in Vegas married to one another. We'll call it Dude, Where's My Country?

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