Once more, unto the breach.

[Lentrax]

Question for everyone.

What would you want to see from a Crusade era game?

Which system would you prefer?

[Slipperychicken]

Depends. Who are we playing as, and what are we doing?

If the players are actually interacting with the crusades on some level (whether as merchants, warlords, generals, assassins, or just regular soldiers), then my first instinct would be ACKS. It seems to work well modeling the individual and state levels, and it's low-fantasy enough that I've heard of people running "historical" (no-magic) campaigns without too much trouble.

[Airk]

Yet another "What system would you use for this setting?" question instead of a "What system would you use for a game in which you want X, Y or Z to be something you do/important/the focus." =(

There is no answer for the question as written.

[Lentrax]

There are two questions there, so allow me to rephrase.

Playing in the historical Crusade era, what role would you most prefer? A crusader, living, fighting, and dying to reclaim the Holy Land?

A General in command of an army planning sieges?

A merchant trying to make the best deal to both sides, keeping himself out of the war?

And what would you like the game system be able to allow you to do?

[Komodo]

Answering this question the bast I can based on my knowledge of the setting, systems, and my own personal preferences...

In terms of character choice, I would absolutely want to be a crusader, although I would also value the System providing the PCs the option to play as Ottoman soldiers should they so choose, and forgive me if I get my terms wrong. The general and the merchant options sound like they have potential, but neither appeals to me. I wouldn't want to be the general as I prefer focusing on a single character in my games, and taking control of large armies doesn't interest me, although I could imagine a wide enough audience that would enjoy simulating a siege complete with catapults, ladders, and wall breeches. As for the merchant, I have no interest in playing a character who isn't at the heart of whatever major event's currently going on. The merchant idea could be fun, but only if there's not a war that will go on to reshape the course of history for the entire world going on at the same time.

As for the system, I'd ask two main things: First, don't shackle me to an army to the point that my own deeds feel hopelessly overshadowed. I would want the opportunity to be a part of a small force with myself and the other PCs who would be tasked with dangerous missions, such as storming breeches in the walls, assassinating high-profile enemy officers, or delivering messages/supplies to seige camps on the other side I enemy infested territory. And second, I'd value having a number of different approaches to challenges. While it would be easy to make the whole party horse-riding spear-wielding paladins, I'd appreciate a wide variety of playstyles to choose from, even if it mean sacrificing a bit of historical accuracy. I don't think I need to say anything beyond "Assassin's Creed" for you to get what I'm saying.

Most importantly, however, I would enjoy using the game as an opportunity to explore the history and philosophy of the setting. I would have no interested in playing in a "politically correctly sterile" version of the Crusades, nor one that ignores the philosophies and politics of the era in order to get to the combat. I'd like to see each side for what they were, without necessarily calling out either as strictly wrong or right. I'd want to meet important historical figures, learn a bit about what they believe and why, then either carry out a mission for them or kill them.

So what system do I think would work best? Well, heck if I know. It would ideally have fast-paced, brutal combat that's not too heavy on rules, a good level of character customization for non magical human characters, and would either be able to provide a good sense of verisimilitude for the setting or else not get in the way of such.

Great. Now that I've written so much about this hypothetical game, I actually want to play it.

[Slipperychicken]

Playing as some kind of soldier with the potential to rise in rank and status might be best. Perhaps as a mercenary, so it's possible to switch sides, switch areas (i.e. spend a few years fighting in anatolia, then go down to the levant to do stuff there), and have relative freedom in the execution of duties. Mercenary stuff also lets you branch out into other areas like merchant-jobs, assassination/criminality/banditry, managing bits of a crusader state, and political intrigue.

[Berenger]

[...]

Playing in the historical Crusade era, what role would you most prefer?

[...]

And what would you like the game system be able to allow you to do?

I'd prefer to start as a minor noble or impoverished knight [or even a knight's squire]. This way I start without much money, influence or fame, but I can achieve those without hitting an "invisible ceiling" due to lacking noble blood. I also can be a powerful fighter in my own right. Once I earned a measure of wealth and fame in the service of a more powerful lord, I can start to attract retainers of all sorts [servants, soldiers, bodyguards, spies, a squire, a minstrel, a wife, a priest/scribe, a native guide/translator...] of my own and if I'm lucky I even get a fief, a small castle and subjects I can manage and pass on to my heir [next character] when I die.

I'd like rules for:
- personal combat
- leading troops in skirmishes, battles and sieges
- "sidekick" characters that I can play in scenes unfitting for my main character
- managing a fief / dynasty
- a measure of / benefits for fame, honor and allegiance
- benefits for having certain followers
- gritty, horrible stuff like disease, hunger, exposure and mutilation (which are important for the setting)

[Anxe]

I want to find holy relics and safeguard them from the other evil side! Basically, Indiana Jones in medieval clothing.

[TomPliss]

When I think about the crusades and what I would like to play in these, it makes me think about (what I think is) WarHammer. Mind you, I haven't played it (my brother bought the 2° ed core book), but the whole "you can easily die" + "you shouldn't show interest in the enemy's beliefs if you want to stay alive near a priest" seems to fit.

[LokiRagnarok]

There are two questions there, so allow me to rephrase.

Playing in the historical Crusade era, what role would you most prefer? A crusader, living, fighting, and dying to reclaim the Holy Land?

The "living, fighting and dying" bit reminded be of a computer game I used to play: Lionheart - Legacy of the Crusader.

Basically, if you want some undead in your story, you can take a look at this.

[Lentrax]

I'd prefer to start as a minor noble or impoverished knight [or even a knight's squire]. This way I start without much money, influence or fame, but I can achieve those without hitting an "invisible ceiling" due to lacking noble blood. I also can be a powerful fighter in my own right. Once I earned a measure of wealth and fame in the service of a more powerful lord, I can start to attract retainers of all sorts [servants, soldiers, bodyguards, spies, a squire, a minstrel, a wife, a priest/scribe, a native guide/translator...] of my own and if I'm lucky I even get a fief, a small castle and subjects I can manage and pass on to my heir [next character] when I die.

I'd like rules for:
- personal combat
- leading troops in skirmishes, battles and sieges
- "sidekick" characters that I can play in scenes unfitting for my main character
- managing a fief / dynasty
- a measure of / benefits for fame, honor and allegiance
- benefits for having certain followers
- gritty, horrible stuff like disease, hunger, exposure and mutilation (which are important for the setting)

Do you think a modified d20 system, with better rules for siege/extended warfare and a section on life and roleplay in historical medieval settings would work?

[Berenger]

I never played D&D. While I'm quite fond of D20 Modern and its various expansions, I wouldn't use them for this particular setting. D20 always struck me as very abstract, clean, easy and high-powered. There are no real character flaws. In D20, a guy with a rusty dagger can stab you a dozen times and you are guaranteed to be alive and kicking within a week when you really should be down for several months and at risk for gangrene and crippledness. Also, the skill system does not cut it for me - all skills cost the same, they are too broad and too many aspects of life are taken for granted or outright ignored (for example the preparation of food). While we're at it, I dislike the armor rules and mundane melee combat is repetitive, boring and predictable.

I'd recommend to use the HackMaster system and just ignore the supernatural stuff (which will work vastly better than using D&D and ignoring the supernatural stuff). The basic version is available for free: http://www.kenzerco.com/product_info...roducts_id=862

[Anxe]

Hackmaster actually sounds like a great idea. The full rules have Knight and Assassin classes which are perfect for the crusades.

[Lentrax]

I never played D&D. While I'm quite fond of D20 Modern and its various expansions, I wouldn't use them for this particular setting. D20 always struck me as very abstract, clean, easy and high-powered. There are no real character flaws. In D20, a guy with a rusty dagger can stab you a dozen times and you are guaranteed to be alive and kicking within a week when you really should be down for several months and at risk for gangrene and crippledness. Also, the skill system does not cut it for me - all skills cost the same, they are too broad and too many aspects of life are taken for granted or outright ignored (for example the preparation of food). While we're at it, I dislike the armor rules and mundane melee combat is repetitive, boring and predictable.

I'd recommend to use the HackMaster system and just ignore the supernatural stuff (which will work vastly better than using D&D and ignoring the supernatural stuff). The basic version is available for free: http://www.kenzerco.com/product_info...roducts_id=862

Not sure I would want to learn another entire system to try and run a game in this setting.