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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    material & internet plane
    Gender
    Male

    Default Enter. Raise Hell. Leave. [3.5 Scout Fix][PEACH] (WIP)

    Spoiler: Some thoughts for creating the fix
    Show
    It was a few days ago when I rebrowsed the Commonly Corrected Class Compendium, and see the lack of Scout fixes. I mean, I saw the Swashbuckler (and its rogue version) and even the Samurai (and its fighter version), so why am I not seeing the Scout? The answer is so obvious it hurts my skillmonkey-loving heart. He is forever stapled, if not a mere footnote, under Ranger fixes. And with mechanics that are far too similar to a Ranger's (and far more inferior at that), it's logical to head down that path. But if you look at it from a fluff perspective, the nature-revering Apex Hunter with weapon style mastery is far too different from the highly mobile Surveillance and Espionage Agent.

    Long story short, the mechanics given to the scout doesn't do justice to that awesome, awesome fluff that it has (seriously, reread Complete Adventurer pp.10-11). Heck, I bet plenty of you recognize the archetypal role "Scout". The Scout class needs some serious fixing for it to be finally worthy of its namesake.


    Design Goals:
    • Make the Scout at least a T3 Class to be on par in competence with plenty of good classes
    • Make the Scout... actually good at Scouting
    • Make a unique niche and playstyle for the Scout (at least, until someone plays a T1 class)
    • Make the Scout's mechanics capture its fluff as much as possible (i.e. focusing on Mobility, Information Gathering, Perception, and Stealth)

    Spoiler: non-SRD Resources
    Show
    • SRD wording
    • Complete Adventurer (pp10-12) wording
    • Magic of Incarnum (p50) wording
    • Grod the Giant's Walker of the World and Unstoppable Stride wording for my Heedless Stride and Flawless Stride abilities (from the Legend class, specifically)


    What is a Scout?
    Spoiler: Wait... Didn't I just answer my own query?
    Show
    Of course! A scout is someone good at the role of scouting!

    Irony aside, that description's all well and good. However, what the "Scout" is as the archetype, is actually different (or a narrower view, to be more precise) from what the "Scout" is as the class presented by WotC. Lifting the introduction of the class from Complete Adventurer:
    Quote Originally Posted by Complete Adventurer, p.10
    Any force on the move, whether it’s an army or an adventuring group, needs information about what’s ahead and what’s behind and, more important, time to prepare for battle. A scout can navigate difficult terrain at good speed, and she specializes in seeing her foe before the opponent ever detects her presence. In a dungeon or in the wild, a scout is seen only when she wants to be.
    From here, we get the idea of what the Scout's main roles are: gathering information (ahead or behind), helping her allies be more prepared against incoming conflict, navigating any sort of terrain at good speed, having reliable perception to actually detect who she's spying on, and also having a high degree of stealth. The new Scout fix will try to focus on these as main competencies:
    • The revamped Skirmish and Intel subsystem will reflect the Scout's information gathering and preparation
    • The revamped movement features, dubbed the "___less Stride series", will highlight the Scout's unparalleled mobility and navigation capabilities
    • The new Reconnaissance ability, replacing the Battle Fortitude class feature, will feature the Scout's innate ability to see before being seen (ergo, "Scouting").
    • The new "Percipience series", replacing the Blindsense/sight class features, will massively increase the Scout's expected competency and versatility in perception
    • The revamped "Stealth series" (camouflage, HiPS, and the new Master of Subtlety), will retain and improve on the Scout's abilities in subterfuge.


    Aside from that, will be a host of other new features:
    • Chosen Insight is a new ability that will decrease the Scout's MADness. The information gathering, skill-monkeyish aspect combined with the perception aspect would have the player split on Wis or Int, so this will be the feature to make him not worry about that.
    • The Uncanny Dodge and Evasion features are retained, with the addition of Improved Evasion in place of a dead level. For the fluff given, these won't be too out of place.
    • The new Tempo Abiliy feature, replacing mere bonus feats, will be a unique Scout feature which I think will reflect the Scout's more unorthodox combat style due to his unparalleled mobility. Some of this abilities will include those that effectively replace one or more feats that a Scout can normally take (e.g. no need to take Flyby Attack, Shot on the Run, or Spring Attack, upon choosing Hit and Run)


    Skirmishes and Intel
    Spoiler: a quick peek at the Scout's new mechanics
    Show
    This fix features a completely remodeled mechanic based on the Scout's previous Skirmish abilities.

    Skirmishes are now the multitude of special passive abilities that a Scout (or more importantly, his allies) can gain access to once he starts moving around. Unlike normal passive Extraordinary abilities, Skirmishes have no potency without the investment of the Scout's new pool of resources: Intel.

    The closest comparison to a D&D subsystem mechanics would be that of the Incarnum subsystem: Intel are like Essentia and Skirmishes are like Soulmelds. Intel are allocated to Skirmishes, and like in Incarnum, you may allocate to any number of Skirmishes in any way you want, except you add two rules:
    1. The maximum Intel allocation for Skirmishes is 1 until level 4, 2 until level 8, 3 until level 9, 4 until level 12, and 5 until level 16.
    2. Skirmishes have minimum Intel cost, so you either allocate at least that much, or none at all.

    Consequently, allocating more Intel on a Skirmish heightens its effects.

    With this implementation, you effectively are capable of trading the old Skirmish' extra 1d6s of damage and AC bonuses for other stuff (of course, you can still allocate all Intel to Expose Protection and Reveal Attack to basically almost get the same old Skirmish effect). Moreover, many of these effects, via the new fluff and mechanics, affects your allies too.




    The Scout
    Alignment: Any
    Hit Die: 1d8

    Class Skills: A scout's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Disable Device (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (n/a), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).

    Skill Points at 1st Level: (8 + Int modifier) × 4
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int modifier

    TABLE - THE SCOUT

    Level

    BAB
    Fort
    Save
    Ref
    Save
    Will
    Save

    Special
    Skirmishes
    Known


    Intel

    Fast
    Movement

    1st +0 +0 +2 +0 Intel, Skirmish (Tier 1), Chosen Insight, Reconnaissance
    2
    1
    -
    2nd +1 +0 +3 +0 Percipience, Uncanny Dodge
    3
    1
    -
    3rd +2 +1 +3 +1 Heedless Stride, Fast Movement
    4
    2
    +10 ft.
    4th +3 +1 +4 +1 Tempo Ability
    5
    2
    +10 ft.
    5th +3 +1 +4 +1 Evasion, Skirmish (Tier 2)
    7
    3
    +10 ft.
    6th +4 +2 +5 +2 Flawless Stride
    8
    3
    +20 ft.
    7th +5 +2 +5 +2 Tempo Ability
    9
    4
    +20 ft.
    8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +2 Camouflage
    10
    4
    +20 ft.
    9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +3 Limitless Stride, Skirmish (Tier 3)
    12
    5
    +30 ft.
    10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +3 Tempo Ability
    13
    5
    +30 ft.
    11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +3 Grand Percipience
    14
    6
    +30 ft.
    12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Harmless Stride
    15
    6
    +40 ft.
    13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Tempo Ability, Skirmish (Tier 4)
    17
    7
    +40 ft.
    14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +4 Hide in Plain Sight
    18
    7
    +40 ft.
    15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +5 Peerless Stride
    19
    8
    +50 ft.
    16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Tempo Ability
    20
    8
    +50 ft.
    17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Improved Evasion, Skirmish (Tier 5)
    22
    9
    +50 ft.
    18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +6 Endless Stride
    23
    9
    +60 ft.
    19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +6 Tempo Ability
    24
    10
    +60 ft.
    20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +6 Apex Percipience, Master of Subtlety
    25
    10
    +60 ft.


    Class Features
    All of the following are class features of the Scout.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency
    Scouts are proficient with all simple weapons, plus ten martial weapons of her choice. Scouts are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.



    Intel: A scout relies on his advanced mobility in providing his allies with gathered intelligence about the opposition in order to coordinate and anticipate their next moves.

    Each round, as soon as you move at least 10 feet on your turn, you gain access to resources called Intel, which lasts until the start of your next turn. Each Scout has a pool of Intel, the size of which are detailed on the Table - The Scout above. Intel are resources used to power Skirmishes.

    As a swift action on your turn, you may allocate Intel into any number of Skirmishes as well as choose which allies are affected. It remains invested in those Skirmishes until you reallocate your Intel. Beginning at 10th level, you may reallocate Intel after every 20 feet of movement, without using a swift action (becomes non-action).

    You always have Intel, but you only gain access to them by way as indicated above.



    Skirmish (Ex)
    Skirmishes are passive extraordinary abilities that aid you and others. The number of Skirmishes you know per level is indicated in the Table - The Scout above. At 1st level, you only get access to Tier 1 Skirmishes. You get access to Tier 2 at 5th level, Tier 3 at 9th level, Tier 4 at 13th level, and Tier 5 at 17th level.

    To make use of a Skirmish, a resource called Intel must be allocated to it. Each Skirmish have a minimum allocation cost equal to their Tier. The maximum amount of Intel that can be allocated to a particular Skirmish is equal to the maximum Tier accessible to you. Therefore, the maximum is 1 Intel per Skirmish at 1st, which increases 2 Intel at 5th, 3 Intel at 9th, and so on.

    Learning additional Skirmishes (WIP)



    Chosen Insight (Ex):
    You may choose to use the better of your Intelligence or Wisdom score, in place of the normal ability score used on Wisdom and Intelligence checks, Wisdom- and Intelligence-based skill checks, and Gather Information checks.



    Reconnaissance (Ex):
    You gain a perfection bonus on Spot and Listen checks equal to 5 + 1 per two Scout Levels (round down). Additionally, any Spot or Listen checks to detect you, including objects you carry, have their DCs increased by 1 per two Scout Levels (round down). These increase by another +1 per two Scout Levels (round down) both at 10th level and then at 20th level.

    You may partially or wholly suppress the DC increase for one round against any number of targets.
    Spoiler: Example
    Show
    In a crowd of four enemies, you may have the first one you may allow one of your enemies to perceive you normally for one round).




    Percipience (Ex)
    Beginning at 2nd level, you may reduce your available bonuses (as detailed below) from your Reconnaissance to gain one or more of the following effects.
    Bonus
    Cost
    Ability
    Description
    5 Scent to 50ft*
    6 see through all types of darkness**
    7 Blindsense to 20ft*
    8 see through invisibility**
    9 Blindsight to 40ft*
    15 see through illusions
    18 True Seeing to 130ft*
    21 see through fog, smoke, and similar effects**
    24 Touchsight to 90ft*
    35 see through even opaque solid and liquid matter**
    * +10ft increase to range per extra Perfection Bonus exchanged
    ** still limited by the range of your vision or Spot check

    Changing, adding, or removing this ability's effects is a swift action. Suffice to say, you can't reduce bonus if you no longer have them (such as reducing attack bonus for Power Attack).



    Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
    Beginning at 2nd level, you retain your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, you still lose Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If you already has Uncanny Dodge from a different class, you automatically gain Improved Uncanny Dodge (as the Rogue, using Scout Levels) instead.



    Heedless Stride (Ex)
    Beginning at 3rd level, you can no longer be tracked, nor are you hindered nor harmed by natural terrain. This allows you to, among other things, move through dense undergrowth without being slowed, breathe underwater, and ignore extreme heat and cold as though affected by a permanent Endure Elements spell. Extreme natural features, such as lava and lightning, can still damage you, however. At 12th level, you gain immunity to all sources of natural damage, including non-magical lava and lightning. You lose this benefit when wearing medium or heavy armor, or when carrying a medium or heavy load.



    Fast Movement (Ex)
    At 3rd level, and every three Scout Levels thereafter, you gain a +10ft. bonus to all movement speeds (to a +60ft. speed at Scout 18th). Additionally, you also gain Climb and Swim speed equal to your base land speed.

    At 6th level, you can either walk over liquid or climb/traverse on any elevation (even upside down) without making a Climb check, as long as you already moved at least 10 feet in that round.

    At 12th level, you no longer need a free hand to climb or continue climbing, as long as you already moved at least 10 feet in that round.

    You lose these benefits when wearing medium or heavy armor, or when carrying a medium or heavy load.


    Tempo Abilities: A Scout utilizes unique combat styles based on erratic and unpredictable movement patterns.

    At 4th level, and every three Scout Levels thereafter, you choose a Tempo Ability for which you meet the prerequisites
    Spoiler
    Show
    Hit and Run (Ex)
    You can take a standard action at any point during a move action made during your turn. For the sole purpose of qualifying for feats and classes requiring either Flyby Attack, Shot on the Run, or Spring Attack, Hit and Run counts as these feats as well as Dodge and Mobility.

    Hit and Run II (Ex) [Prerequisites: Hit and Run, Scout 10th level]
    You can move up your speed as part of a full-attack action made during your turn, but you must move a minimum of 10 feet between each attack and you can't return to a square you just exited.

    Hit and Run III (Ex) [Prerequisites: Hit and Run II, Scout 19th level]
    You can move up your speed between each attack as part of a full-attack action made on your turn, but you can't return to a square you just exited.

    Own Tempo (Ex)
    You can take your move action for the round even if it's not your turn, much like an immediate action.

    Own Tempo II (Ex) [Prerequisites: Own Tempo, Scout 10th level]
    You can divide your move action for the round even if it's not your turn, taking up to (half your Scout Level round down) partial move actions with each requiring a minimum of 10 feet of movement. You may use this before or after, but not during, anyone's action.

    Own Tempo III (Ex) [Prerequisites: Own Tempo II, Scout 19th level]
    You can take your standard action for the round even if it's not your turn, much like an immediate action, as long as its only used to either initiate a maneuver, "make an attack" action, or make Special Attacks (Bull-Rush, Overrun, escape Grapple, etc.)

    Just in Time (Ex)
    You can ready actions without changing your place in the initiative. For the sole purpose of qualifying for Feats and Classes requiring Improved Initiative, Just in Time counts as this feat.

    Just in Time II (Ex) [Prerequisites: Just in Time, Scout 10th level]
    As a full-round action, you can ready a full-round action.

    Just in Time III (Ex) [Prerequisites: Just in Time II, Scout 19th level]
    You can ready either an unspecified action with a specified condition, or a specified action with an unspecified condition.

    Calculated Step (Ex)
    You gain the Evasive Reflexes feat, and you add half your Scout Level (round down) to your number of Attacks of Opportunity per round.

    Calculated Step II (Ex) [Prerequisites: Calculated Step, Scout 10th level]
    You may make a 10ft-step instead of a 5ft-step.

    Calculated Step III (Ex) [Prerequisites: Calculated Step II, Scout 19th level]
    You may make a (half your speed)-step instead of a 5ft-step.

    Feat
    You gain a bonus feat that you qualify for in place of a tempo ability.
    Aside from the bonus feat, you lose these benefits when wearing medium or heavy armor, or when carrying a medium or heavy load.



    Evasion (Ex)
    Beginning at 5th level, whenever you make a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, you instead takes no damage. You lose this benefit when wearing medium or heavy armor, or when carrying a medium or heavy load.



    Flawless Stride (Ex)
    Beginning at 6th level, you are no longer hindered by effects that would hinder your ability to move, such as dense undergrowth or a Solid Fog spell, as though you were under the effects of a permanent Freedom of Movement spell, although you can still be grappled. You lose this benefit when wearing medium or heavy armor, or when carrying a medium or heavy load.



    Camouflage (Ex)
    Beginning at 8th level, you can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even without cover or concealment. You lose this benefit when wearing medium or heavy armor, or when carrying a medium or heavy load.



    Limitless Stride (Ex)
    Beginning at 9th level, you gain a greater sense of balance, such that you can easily tread on air and over any liquid as if walking on solid ground, as though you were under the effects of permanent Water Walk and Air Walk spells. Additionally, you can now climb smooth, flat, vertical surfaces.

    You lose this benefit when wearing medium or heavy armor, or when carrying a medium or heavy load.



    Grand Percipience (Ex)
    Beginning at 11th level, you ignore all penalties to Spot and Listen checks that aren't based on distance or negative ability modifiers, and the penalty (or modifier to DC) for distance becomes 1 per 50ft. instead. Penalties to Spot and Listen checks ignored include (but isn't limited to) those for being Dazzled, Energy Drained, Fascinated, Frightened, Panicked, Shaken, and Sickened.

    You also no longer don't automatically fail Spot and Listen checks, and in cases where you normally do so (e.g. being Blinded or Deafened), you get quarter (1/4) of the result of the relevant skill check/s instead.



    Harmless Stride (Ex)
    Beginning at 12th level, you no longer provoke attack of opportunity for leaving a threatened square. At 18th level, you no longer provoke any attack of opportunity. When used against effects that specifically enable attack of opportunity, such as the Thicket of Blades stance, make an opposed HD check. You lose this benefit when wearing medium or heavy armor, or when carrying a medium or heavy load.



    Hide in Plain Sight (Ex)
    Beginning at 14th level, you can use the Hide skill in natural terrain even while being observed. You lose this benefit when wearing medium or heavy armor, or when carrying a medium or heavy load.



    Peerless Stride (Ex)
    Beginning at 15th level, your movements* no longer trigger contingencies**, if you don't want such movements to. Other actions, such as the attack/s in the middle or at the end of movement/charge, the drawing of weapons/ammunition while moving, the speaking in the middle of movement, etc. can still trigger such contingencies. You lose this benefit when wearing medium or heavy armor, or when carrying a medium or heavy load.

    * e.g. regular movement up to your speed, 5ft. step, dive, charge, overrun, run, withdraw, and similar movements
    ** e.g. readied actions, Contingent Spells, spells/powers from Contingency / Psionic Contingency, and similar effects



    Improved Evasion (Ex)
    Beginning at 17th level, whenever you fail a Reflex save against an attack that normally deal half damage on a successful save, you still only take half-damage. You lose this benefit when wearing medium or heavy armor, or when carrying a medium or heavy load.



    Endless Stride (Ex)
    Beginning at 18th level, you are no longer hindered by effects that restrict movement, such as binding, entangle, grappling, imprisonment, maze, paralysis, petrification, pinning, sleep, slow, stunning, temporal stasis, web, and other similar effects, as though you were continuously under the effects of a permanent Freedom spell. You lose this benefit when wearing medium or heavy armor, or when carrying a medium or heavy load.



    Master of Subtlety (Ex): A Scout's abilities of subterfuge reaches its pinnacle, enabling her to freely do anything she wants while remaining hidden at the background.

    At 20th level, senses and abilities that help in detecting you without the need of a Spot or Listen check(such as Lifesense if you aren't Undead), no longer do such thing to you, and now only add a stacking +5 bonus to Spot and Listen checks against you. Additionally, Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight now work anywhere.



    Apex Percipience (Ex): A Scout completes her mastery of her own senses, allowing her to extract far more abstract information from what he perceives.

    At 20th level, once per round as a Free Action, you discern values/modifiers* from a set of characteristics of your choice, from a creature or object (if it applies) that you can observe.
    • Current Hit Point Total and Non-Lethal Damage
    • Maximum Hit Point Total and Temporary Hit Points
    • Effective Character Level and Negative Levels
    • Armor Class
    • Base Attack Bonus
    • Save (choose one)
    • Skill (choose one)
    • Ability Score (choose one)
    • Highest caster/initiator/meldshaper/etc. level (choose one)
    • Hardness and Damage Reduction
    • Spell Resistance (Spell/Magic Immunity counts as Infinite)
    • Energy Resistance (choose one, Immunity counts as Infinite)



    *this doesn't count specific bonus such as Favored Enemy bonus, bonus to saves vs. Fear, etc.
    Last edited by ben-zayb; 2014-06-01 at 07:27 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    material & internet plane
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Enter. Raise Hell. Leave. [3.5 Scout Fix][PEACH]

    Skirmishes

    Basic Terminology/Shorthand
    Spoiler
    Show
    Observed Path: any square that the Scout has moved through or been adjacent to, this round.
    Observed Area: any square that the Scout can perceive and is within 10ft per Scout Level from an Observed Path.
    Observed Target: any creature/object that had been within the Scout's first range increment (if carrying a ranged/thrown weapon) or twice the Scout's melee threat range (if using a melee weapon), and is detected by this Scout, this round.
    Ally/Allies: any creature (including yourself) that you consider friendly and you are currently able to communicate with.
    X: shorthand for amount corresponding to the total Intel allocated in this particular Skirmish
    <number><X>: multiply the number by the amount (e.g. 2X means twice the allocated Intel)



    Description Format
    <Skirmish Name> [<Skirmish Type> <Tier and Minimum Intel Cost>]: <Effect>


    Offense Skirmish
    Expose Protection [Offense 1]: You and up to X allies gain a +Xd6 competence bonus on weapon damage rolls against Observed Targets
    Expose Vulnerability [Offense 1]: Up to X allies gain a +X competence bonus on attack and damage rolls against Observed Targets
    Expose Weak Spot [Offense 1]: Up to X allies can ignore Observed Targets' immunity to critical hits, poison, and physical ability damage.
    Anticipate Movement [Offense 2]: The last X Observed Target that you successfully attacked on your turn treat Observed Areas as difficult terrain.
    Expose Avoidance [Offense 2]: Up to X allies ignore up to 10X% of miss chance from Observed Targets.
    Expose Negligence [Offense 2]: Up to X allies gain an extra weapon attack on a full-attack against Observed Targets.
    Expose Position [Offense 2]: Up to X allies treat Observed Targets as visible, without cover, and in plain sight.
    Expose Optima [Offense 3]: Up to X allies maximize their variable numeric damage rolls, when targeting Observed Areas or Observed Targets. If X is 5 or more, this includes all variable numeric effects, instead of just damage rolls.
    Expose Reinforcing [Offense 3]: Up to X allies bypass 2X points of Damage Reduction on Observed Targets.
    Expose Resistance [Offense 3]: Up to X allies gain a +2X competence bonus on Caster Level checks vs Spell Resistance against Observed Targets.
    Anticipate Deterrence [Offense 4]: You can make up to X attack rerolls per round, divided as you choose among any number of your attacks.
    Expose Inattentiveness [Offense 4]: Up to X allies treat Observed Targets that you successfully attacked this round as flat-footed.
    Expose Circumvention [Offense 5]: Up to X allies each bypass up to X effects/abilities from an Observed Target that renders the latter completely immune to the ally's weapon attacks (e.g. Incorporeality without Ghost Touch weapons, Etherealness, Ironguard against metal weapons, Friendly Fire against ranged weapons, etc.)

    Defense Skirmish
    Reveal Attack [Defense 1]: You and up to 2X allies gain a +X competence bonus to AC against Observed Targets.
    Reveal Advances [Defense 1]: Up to 2X allies gain a +3X circumstance bonus on opposed rolls against Observed Targets to resist Bull-Rush, Grapple, Overrun, Trip, or other opposed checks that affects movement or position.
    Guidance from Ambush [Defense 1]: Up to 2X allies gain the benefit of Darkstalker feat, and aren't Flatfooted if the Scout isn't, while on Observed Paths.
    Orient Contour [Defense 2]: Up to 2X allies gain a +2X circumstance bonus on Reflex Saves and Dexterity-based Skill Checks, on Observed Areas.
    Orient Hazards [Defense 2]: Up to 2X allies gain a +2X circumstance bonus on Fortitude Saves and Constitution Checks, on Observed Areas.
    Reveal Power [Defense 2]: Up to 2X allies gain DR 2X/- against Observed Targets.
    Anticipate Assault [Defense 3]: Once per round, a spell, attack, or other ability of your choice from an Observed Target have their variable numeric effects against up to X allies minimized.
    Guidance from Haze [Defense 3]: Up to 2X allies have their movement on Observed Paths not hindered by fog, mist, water, smoke, or similar effects.
    Guidance from Obstruction [Defense 3]: Up to 2X allies ignore additional movement cost for difficult terrain on Observed Paths.
    Reveal Bombardment [Defense 4]: Up to 2X allies gain the benefits of Evasion, or Improved Evasion if X is 5, against effects from Observed Targets.
    Reveal Reaction [Defense 4]: Up to 2X allies gain DR 3X/- and +2X competence bonus to AC on Attacks of Opportunity against Observed Targets, and don't provoke AoO from movement out of Observed Targets' threatened area.
    Reveal Blind Spots [Defense 5]: Up to 2X allies gain a 15X% miss chance while against Observed Targets.


    Utility Skirmish
    Advanced Surveillance [Utility 1]: Up to X allies reduce the number of rounds needed to observe or study an Observed Area or an Observed Target (e.g. Detect Magic, Death Attack, etc.) by X (to a minimum of 0 round).
    Fleeting Memorization [Utility 1]: You can hastily read and memorize up to 1000X worth of words per round, but forget them exactly after (Scout Level) minute.
    Gather Poison [Utility 1]: You may spend 30X consecutive minutes searching and extracting poison from vegetative matter on an Observed Area, to reduce the cost of your next Craft (poisonmaking) check as though the plant-based poison is readily available. This method also increases the resulting Poison's save DC by X.
    Gather Herbs [Utility 1]: You may spend 30X consecutive minutes searching and extracting one dose of curative ointment from vegetative matter on an Observed Area, that when consumed removes the Sickened, Nauseated, Fatigued, Exhausted, and Staggered conditions, and either heals X damage per Scout Level or removes X ability damage. Such ointment loses its potency to cure 8 hours after extraction.
    Profile Terrain [Utility 1]: You profile an overview of the area around you, as the Lay of the Land spell, but with a coverage of up to 20X miles from an Observed Area.
    Terrain Adaptation [Utility 1]: Up to 2X allies gain a Climb and Swim speed equal to 10X feet on Observed Paths of the past (Scout Level) minute.
    Trapfinding [Utility 1]: As a free action once per round, you may make a search check for traps within an Observed Area as though you are a Rogue.
    Comprehensive Report [Utility 2]: Up to 10X allies gain a +2X circumstance bonus on trained Knowledge, Spellcraft, and Psicraft checks, concerning topics that had history with the Observed Areas of the past (Scout Level) hour.
    Guided Traversing [Utility 2]: Up to X allies gain a circumstance bonus on Balance, Jump, and Tumble checks on Observed Areas, equal to your Fast Movement bonus.
    Guided Exploration [Utility 2]: Up to X allies (excluding you) gain a circumstance bonus on Spot and Listen checks on Observed Areas, equal to half of your current Perfection bonus to Spot and Listen checks.
    Secured Recuperation [Utility 2]: You may spend up to 10X minutes securing an Observed Area such that the healing (damage, ability damage, etc.) benefits from resting there is multiplied by 2X for the next 12 hours.
    Expert Patrol [Utility 3]: Up to X times per round, you may pick up and carry either an ally from an adjacent square as part of your movement. You may also use this to take a "Manipulate an Item" action as part of your movement. Effects of various encumbrance still apply.
    Track Teleportation [Utility 3]: You identify the destination of any teleportation effect, whose equivalent spell/power/etc. level is up to (2X)-1, cast for the past hour within the Observed Area, as the power Trace Teleport.
    Guided Cover [Utility 4]: Up to X allies gain the effect of your Camouflage ability on natural Observed Areas.
    Guided Subterfuge [Utility 5]: Up to X allies gain the effect of your Hide in Plain Sight ability on natural Observed Areas.
    Last edited by ben-zayb; 2014-06-01 at 06:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Enter. Raise Hell. Leave. [3.5 Scout Fix][PEACH]

    Alternative Class Features (WIP)

    <Class feature substitution from the Original Rogue> (WIP)

    <Martial Scouts: Shinobi and Hashishin> (WIP)

    <etc.>


    While I'm brainstorming what sort of ACFs to put and how to put it, brutally PEACH away!
    Last edited by ben-zayb; 2014-04-30 at 08:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Enter. Raise Hell. Leave. [3.5 Scout Fix][PEACH]

    I'm going to read through later, but right now, a couple of things pop out at me:

    1. Can you bold tempo in the description? I had a pretty tough time finding it

    2. Mettle? Really? not only is this ability actually only marginally useful, but you've also got it coming really late, too late to really do anything important (or see play very often, i mean, how many games really go that high?). However, the BIIG point is: Why on earth should the Scout get Mettle? Yea, it's a whole "toughness" ability, but really, you're playing a scout. It'd probably be much better to give them high will saves and rename the class "Mystic Scout" or something.

    3. This whole mechanic seems pretty darn complex to me, and not in the good way. I saw that wall of text and was like "what?". I mean, can you maybe try and simplify it a bit? Now, I haven't read it, and I'm pretty sure it's actually pretty cool (the whole thing looks like some sort of mix between the marshal retool auras and tome of battle), but... it also looks very hard to get into.

    4. This one is just me speaking out of ignorance, but it does not seem like you really dove for the two things scouts should be good at: movement and recon. Like i said, this is me speaking out of ignorance, you can basically just ignore this number. Just a gut feeling i got from a quick scan.

    5. What reason would someone have to pick ranger over this class, in your opinion? Is this intending to nestle tightly into the crag that rangers call their niche? Because i feel like it really could, and not in a bad way. In a "I'm a ranger with a bunch of cool abilities, mild combat prowess, and GREAT utility" way. which would be awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by TuggyNE View Post
    That's a RAW abuse. Fortunately, like many RAW abuses, it has its counter built in by way of more stupid RAW: tripping does not, in fact, cause you to fall.

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    Default Re: Enter. Raise Hell. Leave. [3.5 Scout Fix][PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Deaxsa View Post
    I'm going to read through later, but right now, a couple of things pop out at me:

    1. Can you bold tempo in the description? I had a pretty tough time finding it

    2. Mettle? Really? not only is this ability actually only marginally useful, but you've also got it coming really late, too late to really do anything important (or see play very often, i mean, how many games really go that high?). However, the BIIG point is: Why on earth should the Scout get Mettle? Yea, it's a whole "toughness" ability, but really, you're playing a scout. It'd probably be much better to give them high will saves and rename the class "Mystic Scout" or something.

    3. This whole mechanic seems pretty darn complex to me, and not in the good way. I saw that wall of text and was like "what?". I mean, can you maybe try and simplify it a bit? Now, I haven't read it, and I'm pretty sure it's actually pretty cool (the whole thing looks like some sort of mix between the marshal retool auras and tome of battle), but... it also looks very hard to get into.

    4. This one is just me speaking out of ignorance, but it does not seem like you really dove for the two things scouts should be good at: movement and recon. Like i said, this is me speaking out of ignorance, you can basically just ignore this number. Just a gut feeling i got from a quick scan.

    5. What reason would someone have to pick ranger over this class, in your opinion? Is this intending to nestle tightly into the crag that rangers call their niche? Because i feel like it really could, and not in a bad way. In a "I'm a ranger with a bunch of cool abilities, mild combat prowess, and GREAT utility" way.which would be awesome.
    Thanks for taking the time to look at this!

    As for your inquiries:
    1. Oops. Fixed! I similarly fixed the Intel boldfacing as well. A good scout knows that, on certain situations, it's better to be seen.

    2. I have to agree. It's a last minute copypasta, admittedly, because that's the only dead level I had. Lvl17 used to have this portal-seeking type of feature (i.e. functionally Teleport/Planeshift) that I scrapped, because I had difficulty wording it. Consider Mettle as a weird placeholder for a new ability, for now.

    3. I edited Intel and Skirmish a bit, partitioning text where I think it's relevant. Is it still too complex? The mechanics I was heading for would be similar to Incarnum in that you have passive abilities that are powered by a pool of resources, only that said resources can only be accessed on a turn where you're mobile. Also added a bit of preview text before the class, to better familiarize those who know incarnum.

    Other than that, I'd very much appreciate some help from anyone for better wording, as I admittedly can get too verbose. (and yes, T.G. Oskar's aura retool is an inspiration)

    4. What do you have in mind? What does the scout need to do that you feel aren't met by the current abilities? This is very much a WIP, so improving it to capture the Scout's fluff and expected role is IMO a step in the right direction.

    5. As a clarification, I think the target Tiering of this class is slightly above of a non-brewed Ranger, which is about the same for almost all notable Ranger fixes on GitP. Then again, mechanically speaking, even the 3.5 Ranger still has better non-buffing combat capabilities and options, animal companion, spell versatility, and useful ACFs (Wild Shape being on the top). The Scout is the one that informs his allies of enemy weaknesses and then provides support fire, while the Ranger goes for the nitty gritty confrontation (with his apex predator fluff).

    EDIT: Added 5 more Skirmishes. (Profile Terrain, Expose Optima, Expose Position, Advanced Surveillance, and Anticipate Assault)
    Last edited by ben-zayb; 2014-05-01 at 07:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Enter. Raise Hell. Leave. [3.5 Scout Fix][PEACH] (WIP)

    Okay, here we go. Note that i'm not huge on capitalization because i'm lazy. I may go back and capitalize if it looks too messy.

    Hit Die: eh, seems a wee bit high, but i think the real problem is the fact that the ranger is not, in fact, using a d10.

    Skill Points: yep, don't really see a problem here. utility character without spellcasting probably ought to have a bunch of skillpoints. Decipher Script, Disable Device, ALL the knowledges, and Speak Language seem slightly odd, though. Is this supposed to be a social scout too? This class hardly seems to look that way. More on this later.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: this is a bit restrictive, don't you think? I mean, this is a bit like saying light infantry don't know how to use machine guns (or something, i'm not the best at analogies). the fact of the matter is, these are soldiers, even if they are a bit more like irregulars. I'd go ahead and add things like the Longbow, Battleaxe, Longsword... at the VERY least, give them access to the longbow.

    BAB and Saves: seems about right. I'd give them high will saves, though, just because, but that's just me.

    Intel/Skirmish: Gonna edit later.

    Trapfinding
    : oops, i forgot this was a thing. I suppose that Disable Device makes a good bit of sense, cme to think of it.

    Chosen Path: Interesting idea, but A) you've got improper grammar on the first one, and B) why does one include gather info, but the other does not? Also, there's already a feat called keen intellect, maybe rename it? I like this idea, it's pretty cool, a good way of reducing MAD, while still making the player make a choice (Will Saves vs. Skill points?). However, note that someone taking the FEAT Keen Intellect will literally pump INT every time and never look back. Finally, this does seem kinda forced, tacked-on, or arbitrary. thoughs behind adding this ability?

    Perfect Reconnaissance: WHOA there... this is a big bonus. add this on top of Chosen Path, and suddenly you have a character with.. a whooole lot of spot/listen. now, i get that this is his niche, but... damn. this seems like a lot to me. Maybe, instead of this, do something like "any bonus received from magical or supernatural means is not effective against the scout" but that may be circumstantially extremely powerful, especially because that suddenly becomes see invisbility. Maybe something like "you get a bonus to detect/avoid creatures equal to the 3/4 your scout level"? it's just... the given value is a wee bit high, especially at low levels. A barely optimized scout at level 2 would have +12 or +13 to the skills affected by this. that's huge. Also, what's with the I/II/III setup?

    Uncanny Dodge: cool, makes sense.

    Trackless Stride: Once again, i think you are giving the class a bit too much. First of all, Trackless step would be fine, even though you've got it coming a bit early compared to other classes (which is fine, given the nature of this class). However, once again, you're really not leaving much to the imagination. the Darkstalker thing is over the top, imho. If I wanted to take darkstalker, i would. This would be like giving all half-minotaur characters EWP: spiked chain, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip as bonus feats. This ability, once again, feels a bit forced. (and the whole "oh, yea, senses not listed in feat are also blocked.. yea. that." feels so ugly. really, really ugly.)

    Fast movement: i love it. totally fits the theme.

    Tempo: Eh, it's nice, and the abilities are strong, but... this also seems a bit strange, like you decided there were too many "dead levels" and started adding things in. It fits the theme... it just does not feel like it flows with the class. it feels like you're adding a bunch of unnecessary mechanics. like, if i made a scout character, and i looked at my 8th level character sheet, i'd need to constantly look things up, it would be a lot of work to play. I don't know, i think you're over-complicating things. However, i DO like the idea of being able to dip into the action economy and make it play little games (not big ones, just little ones) for you.

    Evasion: right on.

    Flawless Stride: how come everything else feels like it's targeted at leveling the playing field against casters, and yet this ability is not? i'd just call it freedom of movement (only, nerfed so as to not include grapple checks or something) and have it appear a couple of levels later. good in theory, but sort of inconsistent (at least as i see it)

    Camouflage: I like the idea, but not the execution. Flavorful, but what does this ability actually DO?. can you hide in plain sight? I'd just move HiPS here. Also, could come a bit earlier maybe 6th? (Especially if you're moving Flawless stride up).

    Limitless Stride: very cool idea, i like it. However, i will say: Why/How on EARTH is this (Ex)?? this should be (Su) at LEAST.

    Grand Percipience: Cool. (Cool cool cool). This is cool. the giant boni from Perfect Reconnaissance is making more sense. However, why is this only available once you get to level 10? Why not have it available from level one? additionally, the things you get for this are TOTALLY worth the points you spend. i would do the following:
    1. remove the +5 bonus from PR
    2. Allow this ability from level 1.
    3. Find some way to avoid letting people use this by dipping (maybe add a class level requirement on each ability, like 1/2/3/4/5..etc? that way dipping will get you a very small amount, not the whole dang ability)
    4. add on a clause that basically says "if you use these special abilities, you may not bring your bonus below 1"
    5. only allow the use of one of these abilities at a time.
    6. add the capstone thing to this list

    Harmless Stride: now this is unecessary. totally unecessary. by this point, characters will be making any and all tumble checks, and the whole "never needs to make attacks of opportunity" is basically just a slap in the face to lockdown builds (which, i'll admit, are strong, but there's no need to do this.) maybe as a capstone, the more powerful part would be good, but the less powerful portion is a moot point (especially since you don't need to worry about rough terrain due to Flawless Stride, and eventually Air Walk)

    Hide in Plain Sight: Like i said earlier, you could basically move this waaay up and it would cause no problems. what i must ask, however, is whether or not it should be regular HiPS. I mean, a scout is not JUST an outdoor character, as you've noted by allowing all knowledge skills. He's someone whose job it is to notice things before they notice you, and that includes ANY terrain. maybe make it transition from a low-level HiPS, where you can only use it in natural terrain, to a high-level HiPS, which you can use anywhere? After all, The scout is going to be needing to make the transition from a Low-level game to a high-level one, where more extreme needs exist due to the extensive use of magic.

    Mettle: as i said earlier, and still believe, this is just dumb on a scout. strip this.

    Endless stride: cool, but make this the capstone or something. also, make this not emulate freedom of movement, but freedom itself. maybe have there be a gradual transition from flawless stride/freedom of movement/freedom at levels, like, 8/14/20 or something. Actually, do that. Totally do that. On the other hand, the whole weight thing makes little to no sense to me. there's really no need to DROP it, and it does not seem particularly forced to me, but it just seems strange, a bit out of place. Kinda like, if the character has not solved their weight problems, they should probably be a strength-based class. Or they have bigger problems.

    Master of Subtlety: Penalties to hide and move silently? you know, the only real penalty to hide that's worth a damn is for sniping, and this is a HUGE bump to that very specific thing, and it's very late. add on top of that that you've got a scaling bonus to hide, and it really makes the hide bit rather irrelevant. Move silently... you probably already removed all or most penalties for that when you got flawless stride, seeing as it's not hindering you, so it's probably not touching you.

    Apex Percipience: Another ability that could come earlier. if i were you, i would reword it to just: "The scout's penalties to spot and listen checks are reduced to 1 per 50 feet of distance" or some other rather large increment. maybe add on: "In addition, the scout takes NO penalties for distance for the first (class level x Arbitrary number) of distance" also, you can move this ability earlier. Like, levels 12+


    OKAY!
    so, there's that. i'm probably not going to PEACH all of the skirmish abilities for a while, i'm kinda pooped

    However, I'd try and decide what this class does well, and give each of those things it's own clear progression:

    -Roguey stuff that establishes this class as a dex-based class (Evasion/uncanny dodge/etc (maybe even add in improved evasion/uncanny dodge at a high enough level?))
    -Avoiding Detection (Passive boost+Camouflage/HiPS progression)
    -Mobility (Fast Movement progression+Flawless Stride/Freedom of movement/freedom Progression)
    -Detection Abilities Progression (the passive scaling+special abilities+distance penalty reduction)
    -Mild Combat prowess (i'm assuming this is all in Skirmish?)

    That's 5 different things right there. If you're afraid of dead levels, just have the stuff land all on different levels, or even add a couple of straight-up bonus feats here and there. However, i think you should get along just fine without that, seeing as you have so many different progressions that can be advanced. And even if you DO end up with the odd dead level, it's not a big deal. Remember, the point is not to make a class that has something every level, it's to make a class that flows well(aka avoids clunkyness), makes sense, and is easy to understand.
    Last edited by Deaxsa; 2014-05-01 at 09:49 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by TuggyNE View Post
    That's a RAW abuse. Fortunately, like many RAW abuses, it has its counter built in by way of more stupid RAW: tripping does not, in fact, cause you to fall.

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    Default Re: Enter. Raise Hell. Leave. [3.5 Scout Fix][PEACH] (WIP)

    First of all, thanks for the PEACH! *cracks knuckles*
    Quote Originally Posted by Deaxsa View Post
    Okay, here we go. Note that i'm not huge on capitalization because i'm lazy. I may go back and capitalize if it looks too messy.

    Hit Die: eh, seems a wee bit high, but i think the real problem is the fact that the ranger is not, in fact, using a d10.
    This, as well as plenty of all other stuff, are actually lifted from the original Scout Class in Complete Adventurer (pp.10+). Seems about right, since even non-main-combatant types like Factotum, Cleric, or Dudu (Druid) get d8s.
    Skill Points: yep, don't really see a problem here. utility character without spellcasting probably ought to have a bunch of skillpoints. Decipher Script, Disable Device, ALL the knowledges, and Speak Language seem slightly odd, though. Is this supposed to be a social scout too? This class hardly seems to look that way. More on this later.
    Also lifted from the original, except the addition of Decipher Script, Gather Info, and Knowledge check because it is part of the main fluff (info gathering).
    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: this is a bit restrictive, don't you think? I mean, this is a bit like saying light infantry don't know how to use machine guns (or something, i'm not the best at analogies). the fact of the matter is, these are soldiers, even if they are a bit more like irregulars. I'd go ahead and add things like the Longbow, Battleaxe, Longsword... at the VERY least, give them access to the longbow.
    Also lifted, but you make a really convincing point. Perhaps he get to choose X amount of martial weapons for proficiency? 5? 7? 10?
    BAB and Saves: seems about right. I'd give them high will saves, though, just because, but that's just me.
    Also lifted, but based on fluff I actually think Fortitude is the one that should be added. That'd make some Ranger comparisons though.
    Trapfinding: oops, i forgot this was a thing. I suppose that Disable Device makes a good bit of sense, cme to think of it.
    Also lifted from the original. Thinking about it, this could be better as a Utility Skirmish, implying a specialty of sorts.
    Chosen Path: Interesting idea, but A) you've got improper grammar on the first one, and B) why does one include gather info, but the other does not? Also, there's already a feat called keen intellect, maybe rename it? I like this idea, it's pretty cool, a good way of reducing MAD, while still making the player make a choice (Will Saves vs. Skill points?). However, note that someone taking the FEAT Keen Intellect will literally pump INT every time and never look back. Finally, this does seem kinda forced, tacked-on, or arbitrary. thoughs behind adding this ability?
    Correct, it's almost lifted from the Dragon feat, with a few changes for balance bet. the two choices. It's a substitution effect, so choosing that feat wouldn't be as beneficial as normal.

    And I guess it does feel tacked on, but I believe a MAD class needs at least one "Reduce MAD" that also gives them freedom on which Ability Score to focus on.

    Also, fixed typo and Gather Info addition
    Perfect Reconnaissance: WHOA there... this is a big bonus. add this on top of Chosen Path, and suddenly you have a character with.. a whooole lot of spot/listen. now, i get that this is his niche, but... damn. this seems like a lot to me. Maybe, instead of this, do something like "any bonus received from magical or supernatural means is not effective against the scout" but that may be circumstantially extremely powerful, especially because that suddenly becomes see invisbility. Maybe something like "you get a bonus to detect/avoid creatures equal to the 3/4 your scout level"? it's just... the given value is a wee bit high, especially at low levels. A barely optimized scout at level 2 would have +12 or +13 to the skills affected by this. that's huge. Also, what's with the I/II/III setup?
    I try to weigh on this, and I think this actually balances well with how far easy it is to optimize Stealth (hide/movS) in comparison to Perception (listen/spot). Perfect Recon gives +6 to these skills at L2. For comparison:
    • A barely optimized L2 stealth class with a small race and racial bonus to Hide/Move Silently gets +8/+4 before dex modifiers.
    • A barely optimized L2 Incarnate can choose to get a +6 bonus to Spot, but he can replace that with other options too during "off" days.
    • A barely optimized L2 Totemist can choose to get a +6 bonus to Listen, or Hide&MovS, but can replace that with other options too during "off" days.
    Those who do use Stealth (the ones the Scout is for) will likely end up with Dark template via LA of item, for a +8/+6 more, along with the multitude of sometimes untyped miscellaneous spells/items that grants Hide/MovS bonus.

    At early levels, I believe you really need that +5 to Perception in order to keep up with those Stealthy ones. At mid levels before 20, this jumps but is just really basically equal to Scout Levels to the 4 skill checks, which seems on par with generally accepted Mundane Class fixes that are still in Tier 3. I consider the additional +11 at level 20 as a bonus capstone of sorts on its own.
    Uncanny Dodge: cool, makes sense.
    Also lifted, and makes sense too, yes.
    Trackless Stride: Once again, i think you are giving the class a bit too much. First of all, Trackless step would be fine, even though you've got it coming a bit early compared to other classes (which is fine, given the nature of this class). However, once again, you're really not leaving much to the imagination. the Darkstalker thing is over the top, imho. If I wanted to take darkstalker, i would. This would be like giving all half-minotaur characters EWP: spiked chain, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip as bonus feats. This ability, once again, feels a bit forced. (and the whole "oh, yea, senses not listed in feat are also blocked.. yea. that." feels so ugly. really, really ugly.)
    Admittedly, this a cheap move to get around Touchsight, Mindsight, Lifesense, and their ilk. Because otherwise, there's no point in hiding. I'm open to ideas on a more elegant solution, though.
    Fast movement: i love it. totally fits the theme.
    Also lifted, but I adjusted it a bit to be on par with the most well-known Monk Fix (Jiriku's) in the playground.
    Tempo: Eh, it's nice, and the abilities are strong, but... this also seems a bit strange, like you decided there were too many "dead levels" and started adding things in. It fits the theme... it just does not feel like it flows with the class. it feels like you're adding a bunch of unnecessary mechanics. like, if i made a scout character, and i looked at my 8th level character sheet, i'd need to constantly look things up, it would be a lot of work to play. I don't know, i think you're over-complicating things. However, i DO like the idea of being able to dip into the action economy and make it play little games (not big ones, just little ones) for you.
    The original Scout has bonus feats in place of this (but on levels 4,8,12,16,20 instead). This basically just adds one more "feat" or feature, except done in a somehow similar way that the original Rogue does (Special Abilities).
    Evasion: right on.
    Lift.
    Flawless Stride: how come everything else feels like it's targeted at leveling the playing field against casters, and yet this ability is not? i'd just call it freedom of movement (only, nerfed so as to not include grapple checks or something) and have it appear a couple of levels later. good in theory, but sort of inconsistent (at least as i see it)
    Yeah, but I think this feature is needed as early as possible. Not to mention this is a direct lift from the original, as usual. I guess FoM without Grapple at this level, for a specialized mobile combatant, actually works since casters might as well spam Heart of Water.
    Camouflage: I like the idea, but not the execution. Flavorful, but what does this ability actually DO?. can you hide in plain sight? I'd just move HiPS here. Also, could come a bit earlier maybe 6th? (Especially if you're moving Flawless stride up).
    This and HiPS are also lifted from the original class. Admittedly, actively hiding IN-combat is also not the vision that I have for the Scout (isn't that more Rogue-ey or Ninja-ey?) so I decided to keep the level designation the same as the original scout.
    Limitless Stride: very cool idea, i like it. However, i will say: Why/How on EARTH is this (Ex)?? this should be (Su) at LEAST.
    Mundane epic balance checks can do somehow similar things. The idea is that Scouts just get to do it earlier because that's his schtick, I guess?
    Grand Percipience: Cool. (Cool cool cool). This is cool. the giant boni from Perfect Reconnaissance is making more sense. However, why is this only available once you get to level 10? Why not have it available from level one? additionally, the things you get for this are TOTALLY worth the points you spend. i would do the following:
    1. remove the +5 bonus from PR
    2. Allow this ability from level 1.
    3. Find some way to avoid letting people use this by dipping (maybe add a class level requirement on each ability, like 1/2/3/4/5..etc? that way dipping will get you a very small amount, not the whole dang ability)
    4. add on a clause that basically says "if you use these special abilities, you may not bring your bonus below 1"
    5. only allow the use of one of these abilities at a time.
    6. add the capstone thing to this list
    Great suggestions! #3 is actually already in place since the Perfection bonus only scales by leveling to Scout, and the earliest you can dip is Scent at level 2, par for the course considering Warblade/Swordsage dips for Hunter's Sense. I thought #4 was obvious, but I should probably word it like Power Attack to be clear. I think #5 isn't necessary as you're still limiting yourself on bonuses. #6 makes this more elegant, plus they can't use it without getting to 20 anyway.
    Harmless Stride: now this is unecessary. totally unecessary. by this point, characters will be making any and all tumble checks, and the whole "never needs to make attacks of opportunity" is basically just a slap in the face to lockdown builds (which, i'll admit, are strong, but there's no need to do this.) maybe as a capstone, the more powerful part would be good, but the less powerful portion is a moot point (especially since you don't need to worry about rough terrain due to Flawless Stride, and eventually Air Walk)
    Tumble actually gets more difficult with more enemies, as well as standing up from prone. Stabilizing an ally, ranged/unarmed attacks, provoking by attacking (Robilar's), etc, are the sort of stuff that I wouldn't discount the Scout to be doing, given less focus on the actual Striker role, so I believe this helps a lot. On the topic of lockdowns, the opposed check is the solution to the Immovable Object vs Unstoppable Force scenario.
    Hide in Plain Sight: Like i said earlier, you could basically move this waaay up and it would cause no problems. what i must ask, however, is whether or not it should be regular HiPS. I mean, a scout is not JUST an outdoor character, as you've noted by allowing all knowledge skills. He's someone whose job it is to notice things before they notice you, and that includes ANY terrain. maybe make it transition from a low-level HiPS, where you can only use it in natural terrain, to a high-level HiPS, which you can use anywhere? After all, The scout is going to be needing to make the transition from a Low-level game to a high-level one, where more extreme needs exist due to the extensive use of magic.
    Also lifted, and the issue I believe is partially addressed in the Master of Subtlety capstone. What defines Natural Terrain anyway? If the whole plane of Mechanus are clockworks, wouldn't that be their natural terrain? Again, great suggestion, but it does rouse my curiosity on this natural terrain thing.
    Mettle: as i said earlier, and still believe, this is just dumb on a scout. strip this.
    Yep. Would Improved Evasion work instead? Probably too late, but a Rogue could get it as late as Level 19.
    Endless stride: cool, but make this the capstone or something. also, make this not emulate freedom of movement, but freedom itself. maybe have there be a gradual transition from flawless stride/freedom of movement/freedom at levels, like, 8/14/20 or something. Actually, do that. Totally do that. On the other hand, the whole weight thing makes little to no sense to me. there's really no need to DROP it, and it does not seem particularly forced to me, but it just seems strange, a bit out of place. Kinda like, if the character has not solved their weight problems, they should probably be a strength-based class. Or they have bigger problems.
    Minus the awkward weight thing, this is also from the original class. Ex too. Freedom? Why have I never seen such suggestion before!? I like it! And the gradual transition suggestion means I sort of failed, because that's what I'm exactly trying to do with the "X-less Stride" line. I'd get back to it.
    Master of Subtlety: Penalties to hide and move silently? you know, the only real penalty to hide that's worth a damn is for sniping, and this is a HUGE bump to that very specific thing, and it's very late. add on top of that that you've got a scaling bonus to hide, and it really makes the hide bit rather irrelevant. Move silently... you probably already removed all or most penalties for that when you got flawless stride, seeing as it's not hindering you, so it's probably not touching you.
    I'll clarify the wording of Flawless Stride such that it only prevents reduced movement capabilities, but penalties to skill checks like Hide/Move Silently still apply. Penalties for attacking and charging (not only sniping) are also -20, as well as size penalties. So at this point they can even Hide easily in combat, even though they don't need to.
    Apex Percipience: Another ability that could come earlier. if i were you, i would reword it to just: "The scout's penalties to spot and listen checks are reduced to 1 per 50 feet of distance" or some other rather large increment. maybe add on: "In addition, the scout takes NO penalties for distance for the first (class level x Arbitrary number) of distance" also, you can move this ability earlier. Like, levels 12+
    I could start giving this at level 11 instead of Grand Percipience, which will be brought down to Level 2, and then upgrade the increment at Level 20.


    OKAY!
    so, there's that. i'm probably not going to PEACH all of the skirmish abilities for a while, i'm kinda pooped

    However, I'd try and decide what this class does well, and give each of those things it's own clear progression:

    -Roguey stuff that establishes this class as a dex-based class (Evasion/uncanny dodge/etc (maybe even add in improved evasion/uncanny dodge at a high enough level?)) Not intended, although it did end up with Evasion & Uncanny Dodge, plus Imp. Evasion to replace mettle
    -Avoiding Detection (Passive boost+Camouflage/HiPS progression) Correct: Stealth Line (Camouflage, HiPS, Master of Subtlety) + Perfect Recon
    -Mobility (Fast Movement progression+Flawless Stride/Freedom of movement/freedom Progression) Correct: ___-less Stride line
    -Detection Abilities Progression (the passive scaling+special abilities+distance penalty reduction) Correct: Percipience Line + Perfect Recon
    -Mild Combat prowess (i'm assuming this is all in Skirmish?) Really mild... Yes.

    That's 5 different things right there. If you're afraid of dead levels, just have the stuff land all on different levels, or even add a couple of straight-up bonus feats here and there. However, i think you should get along just fine without that, seeing as you have so many different progressions that can be advanced. And even if you DO end up with the odd dead level, it's not a big deal. Remember, the point is not to make a class that has something every level, it's to make a class that flows well(aka avoids clunkyness), makes sense, and is easy to understand.
    I'll try rework with that in mind. I suppose dead level aren't as bad as I thought. Thanks again!


    EDIT: Made some more changes such that Endless Stride is now Freedom, but level is retained (18). However, the delicious available tempo abilities at level 19 gives incentive to continue being a scout. Level 20 offers a more appropriate Master of Subtlety capstone, a metagamey gimmicky Apex Percipience capstone, as well as the old +11 bonus bump to Reconnaissance.
    Last edited by ben-zayb; 2014-05-02 at 02:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Enter. Raise Hell. Leave. [3.5 Scout Fix][PEACH] (WIP)

    Got here via the peach thread. So I didn't get to the skirmishes, but lets start with the good: the abilities are fun, flavorful, and do what they set out to accomplish. The class seems for the most part very playable and fun. However there are a couple snags I could see:
    First:
    Percipience's "see through solid and liquid matter" option:through how much matter? Across the planet's mantle?! Also this means that before they can invest 35 recon they can't see through glass or clear water?! Because they can't see trough solids until then.
    Grand Percipience is odd, as it's wording means you can not be deafened or blinded or dazzled... Or rather you can but incur no penalty from them. Also means that a negative wisdom modifier does not apply to your checks. A whole bunch of things are "penalties not based on distance"

    As to Peerless stride: what is meant by contingencies? Contingent spells? General preparations? I figure this is supposed to be a "run so fast they didn't even get to hit" but in the case of the latter it is somewhat silly (they don't trigger traps placed in their paths for one) and the former is odd (why would they not trigger a contingent spell? The cosmic conditions are fulfilled after all)
    Even as is, not triggering readied actions ever feels a bit... Abuseable. I like the ability, it is strong and useful, but a limit on such a strong and blanket power would not be remiss. A times per day or skill check for example.
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    Default Re: Enter. Raise Hell. Leave. [3.5 Scout Fix][PEACH] (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guigarci View Post
    Got here via the peach thread. So I didn't get to the skirmishes, but lets start with the good: the abilities are fun, flavorful, and do what they set out to accomplish. The class seems for the most part very playable and fun.
    Thanks for PEACHing! I'm glad that to hear that it's not lacking in the fun, flavor, or goal-accomplishing department
    However there are a couple snags I could see:
    First:
    Percipience's "see through solid and liquid matter" option:through how much matter? Across the planet's mantle?! Also this means that before they can invest 35 recon they can't see through glass or clear water?! Because they can't see trough solids until then.
    It was indeed poorly worded. Thanks for the catch! The idea was to see through opaque stuff, by being able to focus vision on even the smallest gaps (kinda like a heightened ability to look through pinholes).
    Grand Percipience is odd, as it's wording means you can not be deafened or blinded or dazzled... Or rather you can but incur no penalty from them. Also means that a negative wisdom modifier does not apply to your checks. A whole bunch of things are "penalties not based on distance"
    Another good catch. I honestly never realized negative ability score modifiers, but I will have it clear that such penalty still applies. As for the rest, conditions (etc) was the intent, as well as spells/class features giving penalties directly to Spot/Listen or skill checks in general. Deafened and Blinded give no penalties, but instead auto-fails a Scout, so Grand Percipience makes such conditions less severe.
    As to Peerless stride: what is meant by contingencies? Contingent spells? General preparations? I figure this is supposed to be a "run so fast they didn't even get to hit" but in the case of the latter it is somewhat silly (they don't trigger traps placed in their paths for one) and the former is odd (why would they not trigger a contingent spell? The cosmic conditions are fulfilled after all)
    Clarified that too. Contingencies refer to Readied actions, Contingent Spells (items made from the Craft Contingent Spell feat), as well as spells/powers "stored" in Contingency or Psionic Contingency. I currently see no problems for abuse (yet), given the clarification/limit that other actions even within the movement still trigger such contingencies. But if such an abuse is found, this will easily get the nerfbat. (I want toys for the Scout, but playable ones)

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    Default Re: Enter. Raise Hell. Leave. [3.5 Scout Fix][PEACH] (WIP)

    I'm not a fan of the "he's so good at this nonmagical activity that he breaks the laws of physics" school of mundane class construction, but that's just me and if you want to make your class like that, bully for you (is that the right phrase?). What I want to say is, that's a design philosophy that I won't contest.

    What I want to say about it is that it seems like a ton of book-keeping. One of the nice things about playing a fighter or rogue is that if you have an ability on your character sheet, you can use it, and it's pretty straightforward in how you use it. Even Vancian casting and X-per-day abilities, like smite evil or rage, have a straightforward quality to them. But with this scout, you have to keep track continuously of not one but two scaling point systems (Intel and Reconnaissance) and what they're invested in. I would find that to be a bit of a bother to deal with—and I'm fond of playing wizards.

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    Default Re: Enter. Raise Hell. Leave. [3.5 Scout Fix][PEACH] (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by VoxRationis View Post
    I'm not a fan of the "he's so good at this nonmagical activity that he breaks the laws of physics" school of mundane class construction, but that's just me and if you want to make your class like that, bully for you (is that the right phrase?). What I want to say is, that's a design philosophy that I won't contest.

    What I want to say about it is that it seems like a ton of book-keeping. One of the nice things about playing a fighter or rogue is that if you have an ability on your character sheet, you can use it, and it's pretty straightforward in how you use it. Even Vancian casting and X-per-day abilities, like smite evil or rage, have a straightforward quality to them. But with this scout, you have to keep track continuously of not one but two scaling point systems (Intel and Reconnaissance) and what they're invested in. I would find that to be a bit of a bother to deal with—and I'm fond of playing wizards.
    It's probably due to seeing stuff such as repeatedly hitting a stone wall (for a day? or two?) with unheld-back unarmed strike, or carrying maximum load the whole day, don't have the same effect in D&D 3.5 as it does to a human's body in reality, physics wise. Hope that helps.

    As for book-keeping, I'm not sure why it's more difficult, but I'm open to suggestions for clarifications or mechanics simplification. Otherwise, this is how I'll compare it to other official subsystems:
    • Spell Subsytem analogy: Intel are spell slots, Skirmishes are Spells. No need to ready/prepare everything on the fly, no need to bother about different casting times, metamagics, or the mix of both. Less bookkeeping with the amount of Skirmishes available.
    • Closer analogy: Intel are power points, Skirmishes are Powers. Augment as you like, but no need to bother about different casting times, metapowers, or psionic focus. Less bookkeeping with the amount of Skirmishes available.
    • Closest analogy: Intel are essentia, Skirmishes are Soulmelds. No need to figure out chakra binds. Less bookkeeping with daily Skirmishes options, but more bookkeeping for actual Skirmish use after level 10.

    Also, Skirmishes are mostly passive abilities and at-will, so that's less bookkeeping to track X/days (or round or encounter) abilities individually. One Scout could literally play only utilizing Expose Protection and Reveal Attack with maximized Intel. And that would amount to +1-5d6, +1-5 AC, the same as the default old Skirmish.
    Last edited by ben-zayb; 2014-05-06 at 10:18 PM.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Enter. Raise Hell. Leave. [3.5 Scout Fix][PEACH] (WIP)

    When do you lose access to Intel? Does your first 10 feet of movement with that character permanently allow you to use Intel? I'm assuming that's not the case, but I'm not seeing the end of the duration of having Intel access (though that could be my fault).

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    Quote Originally Posted by VoxRationis View Post
    When do you lose access to Intel? Does your first 10 feet of movement with that character permanently allow you to use Intel? I'm assuming that's not the case, but I'm not seeing the end of the duration of having Intel access (though that could be my fault).
    Each round, as soon as you move at least 10 feet on your turn, you gain access to resources called Intel, which lasts until the start of your next turn
    I'm not sure on how to further improve on the wording. As it is, the start and end condition are on the same sentence (albeit separated by a phrase/clause/something ).

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    Default Re: Enter. Raise Hell. Leave. [3.5 Scout Fix][PEACH] (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    I'm not sure on how to further improve on the wording. As it is, the start and end condition are on the same sentence (albeit separated by a phrase/clause/something ).
    Like I said, could well be my fault.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Enter. Raise Hell. Leave. [3.5 Scout Fix][PEACH] (WIP)

    Why are they called skirmishes if they are things such as anticipating an attack? A skirmish is a minor, brief fight. While I can see why one would use the term as the original scout did, they are very, very different.

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    Default Re: Enter. Raise Hell. Leave. [3.5 Scout Fix][PEACH] (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluydee View Post
    Why are they called skirmishes if they are things such as anticipating an attack? A skirmish is a minor, brief fight. While I can see why one would use the term as the original scout did, they are very, very different.
    Actually, the possible definitions for skirmish aren't limited to actual physical altercation or straight-up fighting, so I took it to mean Engagement (which sounds a tad more boring, generic, and devoid of recall factor)

    How about the class features themselves? Any thoughts/comments if they are satisfactory (or not)?
    Last edited by ben-zayb; 2014-05-10 at 10:25 AM.

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Enter. Raise Hell. Leave. [3.5 Scout Fix][PEACH] (WIP)

    I almost can't gush enough about this class, but I promised myself I would PEACH something about it, and so I shall. I have concerns about some of the Stride abilities. Specifically, some of them feel as though they grant you certain abilities too early, and others too late. In general, I feel it's preferable to not be able to do something that others can do, but earlier/much later. You'll see what I mean in a moment.

    Heedless Stride grants quite a few features. Most of them are fine. However, it does grant water breathing and energy immunity (a multipurpose version, at that) two and one level(s) earlier than your party druid can actually cast them. Their being permanent is fine - if someone wants to use all of their 3rd and 6th level spell slots trying to imitate your class features, more power to them. But getting access to it before they do irrationally irks me.

    Flawless Stride has the same problem; you have permanent freedom of movement a full level before the casters do. At this point, I'm just being absurdly pedantic, but I felt it needed to be addressed.

    Limitless Stride actually has the opposite problem; your casting friends have been walking on water for 4 levels and flying for 10, respectively. As far as advanced mobility goes, your climb/swim speeds will only get you so far as those levels.

    Now to the actual helpful suggestions. If my pedanticism is remarkable, Heedless and Flawless Stride can just be bumped forward a couple of levels. For the initial version of the former, this hurts all of the other abilities it grants you, however, so consider this move carefully.

    Limitless Stride should come earlier. Fortunately, it isn't covering up a dead level like a proverbial modesty blanket, but removing it entirely DOES present the problem of your solid 'every three levels I can move better' progression. So what I suggest is moving down the air walk ability to 9th level and keeping the feature where it is now. In turn, update Fast Movement such that it allows you to walk on water so long as you move at a minimum speed in/above the water every round. Also, that aspect of Fast Movement needs to allow you to apply that climb speed to sheer, flat surfaces like the smooth ceiling or that wall of force over yonder at some point. Perhaps that now-lonely level 15 slot. The ability to use a run action while climbing could also be nice, just to cover up everything that climb doesn't ordinarily let you do.

    Anyway, great class. I look forward to seeing more additions as they occur.
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    Default Re: Enter. Raise Hell. Leave. [3.5 Scout Fix][PEACH] (WIP)

    This does look like a decent power boost, though the Skirmish subsystem looks a lot like the Incarnum Subsystem as you've already pointed out, and I clearly see the differences. But I do have to ask: Why not make it an incarnum class and have the "skirmishes" be scout-only soulmelds? They have something similar w/ the Totemist vs. Druid.
    Last edited by Reality Glitch; 2014-05-31 at 11:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Enter. Raise Hell. Leave. [3.5 Scout Fix][PEACH] (WIP)

    @Overneath First of all, thanks for the PEACH. I'll look at the Feralan after this. (Do I just post the PEACH at the main workshop thread?)

    It'd probably irk you more, but that 1-2 levels advance was intentional, as mundane needs more (not to unbalancing) nice things. I have to point out, though, that there's already an invocation for granting Swim Speed + Water Breathing, that any amount of fire resistance already grants Immunity to Lava, and that Flawless Stride doesn't include grapples in its FoM effect.

    However, I like your suggestion so I made some changes to the class (updates below). However, I'm confused on where to put your (uniquely good) Climb suggestion. You suggested 15th; But by 9th level, the Scout already has a permanent Air Walk so why would he climb? Or am I missing something here? Also, he does have a (rather game-changing) class feature at 15th, actually.

    @Reality Glitch I've certainly thought about it, but the fluff for the scout is just far too different with Incarnum. The Mechanics (triggering, choosing, timing, etc.) and Resource Pools (intel amounts and scaling per level) are also distinct enough to have their own subsystem (kinda like how Shadowcaster gets their own weird casting).
    CLASS UPDATES
    • Limitless Stride's Air Walk feature, moved to 9th level
    • Fast Movement class feature now gets a limited water walking feature at 6th level, around the time caster gets theirs.
    • Done converting the original Trapfinding class feature into a skirmish (tier 1)
    Last edited by ben-zayb; 2014-06-01 at 06:36 AM.

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Enter. Raise Hell. Leave. [3.5 Scout Fix][PEACH] (WIP)

    You can post in that thread or just PM me, at your discretion. Since all the posts are linked in the OP, posts by other people don't disrupt the flow.

    I only suggested 15th because that's where you put the upgrade to Limitless Stride originally. That said, the climb enhancement is strictly better than air walk because it's more reliable; blasts of wind won't push you off course and you can move at a faster speed. That said, I might suggest an upgrade in addition to the other climb benefits that allows you to climb with both hands free. In case you feel the need to shoot someone while ascending a slope, for example. That in mind, it might be better to place the first climb benefit at 9th level, and the hands-free upgrade at 15th. They need not be part of the same class feature, naturally.
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    Default Re: Enter. Raise Hell. Leave. [3.5 Scout Fix][PEACH] (WIP)

    You could make the climb at 9th part of the fast movement as you did w/ water breathing at 6th or so.

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    Default Re: Enter. Raise Hell. Leave. [3.5 Scout Fix][PEACH] (WIP)

    Ah, I see. 9th level seems about right, as you both suggested.


    CLASS UPDATE
    • As part of 6th level Fast Movement, added an ability to traverse a la Spider Climb, but with an initial movement cost (similar in concept to a running start)
    • As part of Limitless Feature, added an ability to climb smooth, flat, vertical surfaces
    • As part of 12th level Fast Movement, added an ability to not use hands when climbing, but with an initial movement cost

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