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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    Hmm dump a bag of holding into a portable hole nearby it?

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    Going to agree with Vik and Yuki on this one. This thread is cheese innate and is TOTALLY pointless. Hey look I made a lvl 345 cheesosaurus rex, I want you to kill it with a 20th level wizard, but my cheesosaurus is immune to EVERYTHING normal by default, and as the supreme ruler of the plane of cheese, it instantly absorbs and negates any cheese your wizard can think of, and to top all of this off, it has a greater ring of DM FIAT to negate any other possibilities that might have worked except I didnt think of them first or couldn't fit them into my rediculously broken cheezy build for some wierd reason. (Like for instance, you could have shoved a dimensional anchor up its ass so you didnt have to fiat away the possibility of moving it to another, deadlier plane. Gate is a perfectly good 9th lvl spell and it isn't really cheesy unless you want to abuse it).

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    There are no Solars used in the killing of your monster (directly). They all stay on my little home plane I created. They just happened to help me create this spell an arbitrary amount of time ago, and this spell is an AoE ball (of no particular energy type) that does 10,000d6 damage, and takes 1 round to cast with no backlash, and is guaranteed to get through SR over about 800.

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Avicenex View Post
    The orbs were what I thought of first, but unfortunatly they are are ranged touch spells specifically targeting Mr. Monster, and therefore will get turned back at the caster.
    Um, is that true? You said it deflects ray spells, but this is just a ranged touch attack from the wizard lobbing the orb at it. Are they treated as one and the same?

    There is a 4th level spell in the Spell Compendium that protects against ray spells. I didn't think it helped against all ranged touch spells though.

    From a common sense point of view, it is easy to see a ray getting reflected. But an orb hurled at the monster bouncing off and hitting the caster? Not so much.

  5. - Top - End - #65
    Surgebinder in the Playground Moderator
     
    Douglas's Avatar

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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    Let's see, rays, lines, cones, and magic missiles are reflected. The orb spells are not in any of these categories, so that part isn't a problem.

    Permanent Spell Turning has this little caveat: "Effect and area spells are not affected." The orb spells are effect spells, as evidenced by the line "Effect: one orb of _____" in each one's stat block. This defense is therefore bypassed.

    SR is negated by the very simple "Spell Resistance: No" line for each orb spell.

    All that's left are the high saves and energy resistances, and the saves only halve the damage, there's an orb for each energy type, and it doesn't have resistance to all of them.

    The Orb spells work, though you would need a fair bit of metamagic to bring the damage up high enough to be worthwhile at that level.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Karsh's Avatar

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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    I'll go ahead and say it... the SR probably makes this thing well above CR 45. It's impossible for GODS to get SR that high. Ao doesn't have SR that high. Nobody does. It would take a Deity with over 300 Divine Ranks. 300. If you want it to be that invincible to magic, then just give it magic immunity and be done with it.

    A Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon is CR 66 and has "only" an SR of 86. This monster of yours must be an Immovable Object, because I can't see how it's CR 45 with all those defenses as well as offensive capabilities.

  7. - Top - End - #67
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Avicenex View Post
    I shouldn't have to say any more, but I'll repeat one more time: I'm not looking for cheese.
    Several people have said it already, but just in case: What you're describing IS cheese. You've made a cheesy, game-breaking monster, and you want a non-cheesy, non-game-breaking way to kill it? That's just silly.

    You made up the monster, you make up a spell that can kill it. Easy enough.

    - Saph

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    That Lanky Bugger's Avatar

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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    Pretty much the only way to do this is going to be either sonic damage from various spells or blunt force trauma from dropped summoned items. There are countless ways to cheese this thing. Take Seed: Energy, pick Sonic, and give it craploads of damage dice (say one die for every HD the thing has). Then switch the targeting to something the thing can't deflect, pump up the Save and Spell Resistence caster check bonus, and maybe pump up the damage dice from measly d6s to d20s. Bring along plenty of Wizard hirelings, or consign yourself to taking this thing down no matter the cost by maxing out backlash and XP burn so you get the most bang for your buck.

    Epic Psionics would own this thing,even with the Psionics-Magic transparency rule. Psionics have a great love of sonic damage AND type-choosable energy damage. It would be child's play to find the right power which ignores Spell Resistance and can be pumped to insane levels thanks to an Epic manifester level. Plus, with the sort of ability scores you can get in Epic, I imagine a Psion would have enough Power Points to throw psionic powers at this thing all day long. However, you said "spell" and not "psionic power", so I guess that's out.

    However, there are no ways of actually killing it which don't involve cheese or preparation. A spellcaster's greatest strength is being able to back off, study something from a distance, and then using that study to formulate a plan and go in with buffs and spells prepared. Taking that away and making them start the fight within 100 feet of something that's likely to splat them with one paw/claw/hand/whatever-it-does-splatting-with AND likely to win initiative puts them at a grave disadvantage right from the start. They're pretty much going to have a Contingency prepared to teleport them to a safer location just to survive the initial round of combat.

    And the CR of 45 is laughable. I don't care what calculations you used to generate them. They're wrong.

    It's a cheesy situation which requires cheese to win. And don't try to say it's NOT cheese. You've created a monster which is immune to everything but sonic damage, resists enough Acid and Lightning to make those practically immunities as well, reflects pretty much ALL spells, and also has a Spell Resistance which makes it immune to the few items which might have gotten through all of the above.

    In answer to your original question, though, yes there are spells which could hurt it. They're "cheese", which just means they fit in perfectly with this monster.
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  9. - Top - End - #69
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    I dunno, without DR even a non cheesy use of telekinesis could do a lot of damage. It's lack of DR is enough to seriously decrease it's CR.

    Automatic quicken three times and multispell 17 times would make for 18 telekinesis casting in one round, at 15*2d6 a pop (greatswords) that is quite a lot of damage. Throw out some automatically quickened timestops so you can use some pearls of power to regain spells and rinse and repeat.

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yuki Akuma's Avatar

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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    Comedy answer: Wish, Miracle or Reality Revision. It's the bastard child of the Terrasque and gods-know what else. It's need one of them to kill it anyway.
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  11. - Top - End - #71
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    Destroy Cheese
    Universal
    Level: Sor/Wiz 9
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
    Range: Long (200 ft. + 20 ft./level)
    Target: 1 Cheese
    Duration: Instantaneous
    Saving Throw: N/A
    Spell Resistance: No

    You absolutely and irrevocably destroy a cheese. No saving throws, no spell resistance, no questions asked.


    Sorry, I had to :p

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  12. - Top - End - #72
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    Dont apologize, thats the best answer yet. Its even described in the DMG under 'researching new spells.' Of course, *this* DM would have some reason why you couldn't research that spell (cough cough its too overpowered cough) or why it just wouldnt work.
    Personally, I would like to see the actual stats for this particular monster build. As several people have pointed out, it probably breaks all kinds of rules for monster advancement and abilities.
    Last edited by daggaz; 2007-02-13 at 10:13 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #73
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    I'll bet you we'll be seeing a lot of zeros trailing after the stats. Quadrillian this, a bajillion that, ferfillion something else.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    Quote Originally Posted by PinkysBrain View Post
    I dunno, without DR even a non cheesy use of telekinesis could do a lot of damage. It's lack of DR is enough to seriously decrease it's CR.
    Being a Tarrasque with the Cheese template, I think that it has quite a high DR, an astronomic AC, a great regeneration and a few thousands of HP.
    Last edited by Vik; 2007-02-13 at 12:10 PM.
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  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Illiterate Scribe's Avatar

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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    This is actually quite simple - even doable with a level 15 kobold wizard.
    Keep it in place with several walls of force/iron/stone. Cast Planar Bubble:Positive Energy Plane. After 20 turns (on average), it will fail a fort save and die from awesomeness.

  16. - Top - End - #76
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    or we can simply cast the Epic spell: Summon Chuck Norris and have him roundhouse the thing out of existence.

  17. - Top - End - #77
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Illiterate Scribe View Post
    This is actually quite simple - even doable with a level 15 kobold wizard.
    Keep it in place with several walls of force/iron/stone. Cast Planar Bubble:Positive Energy Plane. After 20 turns (on average), it will fail a fort save and die from awesomeness.
    Nice. Don't send it to another plane; bring the other plane to it.

    Very, very nice.
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    No, but Swordguy appears to have studied people who are. And took notes.
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  18. - Top - End - #78
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Shatenjager's Avatar

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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    Quote Originally Posted by J_Muller View Post
    Alternatively, just planeshift in Donald Trump so he can fire it.
    It's immune to fire, remember?
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  19. - Top - End - #79
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    How about an upgraded version of the Black Tentacles spell? If you can pump it up so that the tentacles can grapple it, it doesn't allow spell resistance or saving throw and it does physical damage.

    You're still going to have to make an epic spell to do it...I don't know the epic spell rules so maybe someone else would take a gander at it. It'd probably wind up being far lower spellcraft DC than the instant-death spell we saw earlier...but still cheese. I agree with earlier posters, the whole thing's cheese.
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  20. - Top - End - #80
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    ooooo, I know!!! Summon Backhand slap to DM's head! That spell always works.

  21. - Top - End - #81
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Swordguy's Avatar

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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    Quote Originally Posted by elliott20 View Post
    ooooo, I know!!! Summon Backhand slap to DM's head! That spell always works.
    I think there's a Bigby's for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dervag
    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin
    Thus, knowing none of us are Sun Tzu or Napoleon or Julius Caesar...
    No, but Swordguy appears to have studied people who are. And took notes.
    "I'd complain about killing catgirls, but they're dead already. You killed them with your 685 quadrillion damage." - Mikeejimbo, in reference to this

  22. - Top - End - #82
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    "bigby's pimpslap backhand"?

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    How many HD does this nasty thing have? If it's 45 or less, and you have some way of overcoming its spell resistance, you could paralyze it with a Blasphemy spell, then Coup de Gras.

  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Swordguy's Avatar

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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    How many HD does this nasty thing have? If it's 45 or less, and you have some way of overcoming its spell resistance, you could paralyze it with a Blasphemy spell, then Coup de Gras.
    Spell Resistance 385 says "no to you". I can't think of a way to overcome that short of divine intervention, and even that's iffy at that level.
    Last edited by Swordguy; 2007-02-13 at 01:22 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dervag
    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin
    Thus, knowing none of us are Sun Tzu or Napoleon or Julius Caesar...
    No, but Swordguy appears to have studied people who are. And took notes.
    "I'd complain about killing catgirls, but they're dead already. You killed them with your 685 quadrillion damage." - Mikeejimbo, in reference to this

  25. - Top - End - #85
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    [quote=oriong;2011234]No, it still applies to warlocks. There's no wording trick that negates it. [\quote]

    Really...?

    The only thing I've seen that had anything to do with the rule was on page 172 of the PHB:

    A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space, It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
    Emphasis mine.

    The warlock's invocations are not spells in any way. I think they qualify as eldrich abilities, which is typically a whole new barrel of monkeys. The thing that makes it argumentative is the description of the warlock's teleporty move and whether or not it follows the same rules anyway. If you have another source on it I'd be glad to hear it.
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  26. - Top - End - #86
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    why are we still dignifying this? it's obvious this monster is just a bunch of big numbers thrown together. What's the friggin' point of it? How is there a "normal" way of dealing with such a thing when every conceivably "normal" method it is already immune to? What does he expect us to do? play 20 questions with it to figure it's achille's heel?

  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Telonius's Avatar

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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordguy View Post
    Spell Resistance 385 says "no to you". I can't think of a way to overcome that short of divine intervention, and even that's iffy at that level.
    Maybe not with a wizard... but doesn't a Beguiler have some sort of ability that can do this?
    EDIT: Hrm, but then a Beguiler can't cast Blasphemy normally, can it...
    Last edited by Telonius; 2007-02-13 at 01:38 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #88
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    Now, jokes aside, that creature was designed to be immune to magic. The few spells that don't need to overcome it's ridiculously high SR won't be able to harm it without hitting one of it's others immunities.
    And it definitively is not a CR 45.

    Okay, a good cheese: Take a 40th level epic paladin, with maxed charisma, and Smite Evil x10. If the monster is evil, he can deal 40 * 11 = 440 points of damage per attack, plus weapon, magic and strenght.

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  29. - Top - End - #89
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordguy View Post
    Got it! Eschew Materials feat + Major Creation.

    There's no book value listed for either Osmium or it's antimatter counterpart. Just summon Anti-Osmium to the limit of your casting ability in contact with the critter. (Point of order: given an Earth-equivalent density, and assuming it has the DR of rock at all points, it takes a 17th level caster to summon enough Anti-Osmium to fragment the planet. Imagine what a 50th could do.)

    EDIT:
    Osmium is 22610 kg/cubic meter. A 50th level caster summons 50 cubic feet, or a cube 3.7 feet to a side. This converts over to be roughly 15.25 cubic meters, for a final density of 344,802 kg. 1 gram of antimatter produces roughly a 43 kiloton reaction (doubling once the matter is added into the equation, so the detonation of 1g of AM in contact with 1g of matter is 86kt). We have 344,802,500 grams of anti-osmium, for a total yield of 29,653,015,000,000 kilotons. (these are metric tons of 1,000kg each, for a total of 29,653,015,000,000,000 kiloGRAMS of TNT) 1 lb of TNT does 3d6 damage, or, converting over, 0.454 kg of TNT does 3d6 damage. So, dividing 29,653,015,000,000,000 by 0.454 yields 65,315,011,013,215,859 increments of 3d6. So, multiply by three, and get 195,945,033,039,647,577d6 damage.

    Congratulations, you've just done 195 quadrillion damage minimum. Your average damage is 685,807,615,638,766,519 hp.

    685 quadrillion hp damage. That ought to blow through most DR. And it's not fire damage (even though TNT is usually thought of that way). It's just plain old force damage.
    I'd complain about killing catgirls, but they're dead already. You killed them with your 685 quadrillion damage.

    Anyway, you win, as far as I'm concerned.
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  30. - Top - End - #90
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    Default Re: Can any spell hurt it?

    Violent Thrust

    Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects. You can hurl up to a total weight of 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level).

    You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects).

    Creatures who fall within the weight capacity of the spell can be hurled, but they are allowed Will saves (and spell resistance) to negate the effect, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by the spell. If a telekinesed creature is hurled against a solid surface, it takes damage as if it had fallen 10 feet (1d6 points).
    I just won D&D.

    10 small hand crossbow bolts weigh 1/2 lb.

    375 lbs is 7500 small hand crossbow bolts.

    Each does the damage of a small dagger, or 1d3 damage.

    So I do 15,000 damage on average. Assume I only hit on a 20, that is 750 damage per cast.

    Cast 18 times in one round (cheese!), that is 13,500 damage done, on average, to something with arbitrary AC.

    Remember, you didn't mention any DR. :)

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