Epic Psuedonatural Template VS Paragon! Which do you think wins?

[That Lanky Bugger]

Template Comparison
{table]Item|Psuedonatural|Paragon|Advantage
Hit Die|Max/HD|Max+12/HD|Paragon
Speed|Doubles|Triples|Paragon
Armor Class|+35 Natural|+12 Insight, +12 Luck, +5 Natural|Psuedonatural
Attacks|+15 Insight, Extra attacks based on HD|+25 Luck|Psuedonatural
Damage|2d8+STR|Weapon+STR+20(Luck)|Paragon
Special Attacks|Rotting Constriction, Improved Grab|+13 Insight to Special Attacks|Toss Up
Spell-Likes|At Will-Blur, Dimension Door, Shield, Unhallow|+15 CL, G Dispel Magic, Haste, See Invisible 3/day|Paragon
Special Qualities|Way Better|Way Worse|Psuedonatural
Saving Throws|As Creature|+10 Insight|Paragon
Abilities|Str +22, Con +10, Dex +10, Wisdom +10, Intelligence 3+|All+15|Paragon
Skills|As Creature|+10 Insight|Paragon
Feats|As Creature|One Bonus Feat|Paragon
CR|1-6 HD=+16, 7-15=+13, 16+=+10|+15|Psuedonatural[/table]

The Paragon has the slight edge in it's ability to hit things, and it's definately got the edge up on Saving Throws and Hit Dice. But the Psuedonatural has insane Spell Resistance, an insane number of extra attacks at higher HD, and a grapple attack which saps 2d4 Constitution. So which template (and not what it could be applied to for maximum cheese) do you think takes it?

[Druid]

I have to go with Psuedonatural for the con drain and SR.

[Woot Spitum]

Hmm...Spell Resistance...so many attacks...Pseudonatural.

[silentknight]

Err....Paragon...'cause I have applied the Paragon template to a creature but not Pseudonatural.

[The_Snark]

Pseudonatural. Error! Reboot Universe!

Basically, the Paragon's spell-like abilities are useless given a reasonable amount of HD for an epic template. Supernatural abilities on the Paragon may be pretty killer; the DC on those will be boosted through the roof. But the Pseudonatural is pretty much unhittable, assuming reasonably equal starting stats, and it has some truly killer grappling potential along with a bunch of natural attacks. So unless the Paragon can take out the Pseudonatural with a special attack, the Pseudonatural is going to rip it to bits.

[Avicenex]

Psuedonatural. I mostly like it for style, but in most situations it's also just plain better. The sheer number of attacks and spell resistance combined with the -5 to CR wipes any advantage Paragon has.

[njero]

Wouldn't the Paragon's various AC sources give it an edge? Combined they total 6 less than the Pseudonatural's natural armour bonus, but don't the Paragon's insight and luck bonuses apply against touch attacks?

[That Lanky Bugger]

Nope. Single source is better. Multiple sources don't stack, and you probably won't find a higher bonus to Natural AC than +35.

[Nahal]

Cthulhu vs Superman? Cthulhu. Though I always wanted to have a campaign where a ritual could apply the paragon template to a specially trained + prepared subject... say a monk that reaches epic levels

[The_Snark]

When he said multiple sources, he meant multiple types. It doesn't matter all that much, though. There aren't very many monsters that rely on touch attacks; incorporeal ones, beholderkin, and a few others like mohrgs. A touch attack is almost always just a precursor to a special attack, and the exceptions (will o' the wisp) do very little damage.

[AtomicKitKat]

I would go with the Tentacled Beast, but I agree that the Paragon's AC is actually superior to the Pseudonatural's. The Pseudonatural will block most attacks that are affected by Spell Resistance, but the Paragon will easily dodge most of them. Remember kids, Save or Screwed spells generally require some degree of "touching" to connect. Even if it's "just" a Ranged Touch Attack.

[Quietus]

Never had the opportunity to really play around with either, so I gotta say too close to call.

[The Glyphstone]

If you're looking for a PC challenge, then the insight/luck would be much better in the AC department. PC casters and warriors with Brilliant Energy weapons are a dime a dozen.

I'm biased in favor of Paragon in general, if only because I once got to play a Paragon human with 100 class levels, versus a CR100 Greater Deity. Almost won, too.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Brilliant Energy doesn't bypass Natural armour.

[Quietus]

I always think that it does, for some reason... I can't ever figure out why. I guess because it's the whole touch attack idea thing.

Thankfully, I've yet to make that mistake in-game, and I wasn't the one who assumed that here, yet. I've made enough little faux-pas around here, I'm sure.

[That Lanky Bugger]

Hmmm, yeah.

I suppose I'm just used to thinking of it as multiple types being less useful than a single type bonus.

[jjpickar]

Psuedonatural is a cooler name!

[Rama_Lei]

Or better yet.....
A Psuesdonatural Paragon Tarrasque!

[Arceliar]

Or better yet.....
A Psuesdonatural Paragon Tarrasque!

Not as terrifying as a Terrasque that just underwent Fusion with a deity.

[Mewtarthio]

Not as terrifying as a Terrasque that just underwent Fusion with a deity.

No, the Pseudonatural Paragon Tarrasque is scarier. Deities are just deities, while the Pseudonatural Paragon Tarrasque is the prime example of perfection in ineffable horrors that are shaped like other ineffable horrors.