View Poll Results: Paragon, Psuedonatural, or Too Close to Call?
- Voters
- 36. You may not vote on this poll
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Gotta be the Paragon!
12 33.33% -
Psuedonatural is better!
17 47.22% -
It's waaay too close...
7 19.44%
Results 1 to 20 of 20
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2007-02-13, 06:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2005
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- Canada, Eh
- Gender
Epic Psuedonatural Template VS Paragon! Which do you think wins?
Template Comparison
{table]Item|Psuedonatural|Paragon|Advantage
Hit Die|Max/HD|Max+12/HD|Paragon
Speed|Doubles|Triples|Paragon
Armor Class|+35 Natural|+12 Insight, +12 Luck, +5 Natural|Psuedonatural
Attacks|+15 Insight, Extra attacks based on HD|+25 Luck|Psuedonatural
Damage|2d8+STR|Weapon+STR+20(Luck)|Paragon
Special Attacks|Rotting Constriction, Improved Grab|+13 Insight to Special Attacks|Toss Up
Spell-Likes|At Will-Blur, Dimension Door, Shield, Unhallow|+15 CL, G Dispel Magic, Haste, See Invisible 3/day|Paragon
Special Qualities|Way Better|Way Worse|Psuedonatural
Saving Throws|As Creature|+10 Insight|Paragon
Abilities|Str +22, Con +10, Dex +10, Wisdom +10, Intelligence 3+|All+15|Paragon
Skills|As Creature|+10 Insight|Paragon
Feats|As Creature|One Bonus Feat|Paragon
CR|1-6 HD=+16, 7-15=+13, 16+=+10|+15|Psuedonatural[/table]
The Paragon has the slight edge in it's ability to hit things, and it's definately got the edge up on Saving Throws and Hit Dice. But the Psuedonatural has insane Spell Resistance, an insane number of extra attacks at higher HD, and a grapple attack which saps 2d4 Constitution. So which template (and not what it could be applied to for maximum cheese) do you think takes it?Gallery 1 ● Gallery 2 ● Gallery 3 ● Make Avatars With MS Paint
SpoilerThanks to Simius for the Xill Bard, Abardam for the Gray Rendar, Sampi for the Memphit, Rex for the Aristocrat and Onasuma for the Bearded Devil!
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2007-02-13, 06:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- Minneapolis
- Gender
Re: Epic Psuedonatural Template VS Paragon! Which do you think wins?
I have to go with Psuedonatural for the con drain and SR.
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Thanks to Simius for the awesome avatar!
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2007-02-13, 06:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- The Swamp of Evil
- Gender
Re: Epic Psuedonatural Template VS Paragon! Which do you think wins?
Hmm...Spell Resistance...so many attacks...Pseudonatural.
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2007-02-13, 07:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2006
- Location
- Silverdale WA
- Gender
Re: Epic Psuedonatural Template VS Paragon! Which do you think wins?
Err....Paragon...'cause I have applied the Paragon template to a creature but not Pseudonatural.
A silent knight is better than a holey knight.
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2007-02-13, 07:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2006
Re: Epic Psuedonatural Template VS Paragon! Which do you think wins?
Pseudonatural. Error! Reboot Universe!
Basically, the Paragon's spell-like abilities are useless given a reasonable amount of HD for an epic template. Supernatural abilities on the Paragon may be pretty killer; the DC on those will be boosted through the roof. But the Pseudonatural is pretty much unhittable, assuming reasonably equal starting stats, and it has some truly killer grappling potential along with a bunch of natural attacks. So unless the Paragon can take out the Pseudonatural with a special attack, the Pseudonatural is going to rip it to bits.Avatar by GryffonDurime. Thanks!
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2007-02-13, 09:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
Re: Epic Psuedonatural Template VS Paragon! Which do you think wins?
Psuedonatural. I mostly like it for style, but in most situations it's also just plain better. The sheer number of attacks and spell resistance combined with the -5 to CR wipes any advantage Paragon has.
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2007-02-13, 10:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: Epic Psuedonatural Template VS Paragon! Which do you think wins?
Wouldn't the Paragon's various AC sources give it an edge? Combined they total 6 less than the Pseudonatural's natural armour bonus, but don't the Paragon's insight and luck bonuses apply against touch attacks?
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2007-02-13, 10:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2005
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- Canada, Eh
- Gender
Re: Epic Psuedonatural Template VS Paragon! Which do you think wins?
Nope. Single source is better. Multiple sources don't stack, and you probably won't find a higher bonus to Natural AC than +35.
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SpoilerThanks to Simius for the Xill Bard, Abardam for the Gray Rendar, Sampi for the Memphit, Rex for the Aristocrat and Onasuma for the Bearded Devil!
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2007-02-13, 11:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2005
- Location
- Big Apple's shadow
Re: Epic Psuedonatural Template VS Paragon! Which do you think wins?
Cthulhu vs Superman? Cthulhu. Though I always wanted to have a campaign where a ritual could apply the paragon template to a specially trained + prepared subject... say a monk that reaches epic levels
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2007-02-14, 12:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2006
Re: Epic Psuedonatural Template VS Paragon! Which do you think wins?
When he said multiple sources, he meant multiple types. It doesn't matter all that much, though. There aren't very many monsters that rely on touch attacks; incorporeal ones, beholderkin, and a few others like mohrgs. A touch attack is almost always just a precursor to a special attack, and the exceptions (will o' the wisp) do very little damage.
Avatar by GryffonDurime. Thanks!
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2007-02-14, 01:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2005
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- Singapore
- Gender
Re: Epic Psuedonatural Template VS Paragon! Which do you think wins?
I would go with the Tentacled Beast, but I agree that the Paragon's AC is actually superior to the Pseudonatural's. The Pseudonatural will block most attacks that are affected by Spell Resistance, but the Paragon will easily dodge most of them. Remember kids, Save or Screwed spells generally require some degree of "touching" to connect. Even if it's "just" a Ranged Touch Attack.
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2007-02-14, 05:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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Re: Epic Psuedonatural Template VS Paragon! Which do you think wins?
Never had the opportunity to really play around with either, so I gotta say too close to call.
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2007-02-14, 05:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2005
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Re: Epic Psuedonatural Template VS Paragon! Which do you think wins?
If you're looking for a PC challenge, then the insight/luck would be much better in the AC department. PC casters and warriors with Brilliant Energy weapons are a dime a dozen.
I'm biased in favor of Paragon in general, if only because I once got to play a Paragon human with 100 class levels, versus a CR100 Greater Deity. Almost won, too.NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
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2007-02-14, 05:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
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- Sydney
Re: Epic Psuedonatural Template VS Paragon! Which do you think wins?
Brilliant Energy doesn't bypass Natural armour.
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2007-02-14, 06:01 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
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Re: Epic Psuedonatural Template VS Paragon! Which do you think wins?
I always think that it does, for some reason... I can't ever figure out why. I guess because it's the whole touch attack idea thing.
Thankfully, I've yet to make that mistake in-game, and I wasn't the one who assumed that here, yet. I've made enough little faux-pas around here, I'm sure.
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2007-02-14, 08:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2005
- Location
- Canada, Eh
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Re: Epic Psuedonatural Template VS Paragon! Which do you think wins?
Hmmm, yeah.
I suppose I'm just used to thinking of it as multiple types being less useful than a single type bonus.Last edited by That Lanky Bugger; 2007-02-14 at 08:59 PM.
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SpoilerThanks to Simius for the Xill Bard, Abardam for the Gray Rendar, Sampi for the Memphit, Rex for the Aristocrat and Onasuma for the Bearded Devil!
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2007-02-14, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
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- is nice, sometimes
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Re: Epic Psuedonatural Template VS Paragon! Which do you think wins?
Psuedonatural is a cooler name!
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2007-02-14, 09:57 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
- Location
- The Mindfields
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Re: Epic Psuedonatural Template VS Paragon! Which do you think wins?
Or better yet.....
A Psuesdonatural Paragon Tarrasque!Ceika is amazing, because she made my Yuna avie. Yay Ceika!
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2007-02-14, 10:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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2007-02-14, 10:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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Re: Epic Psuedonatural Template VS Paragon! Which do you think wins?