Running an Evil Campaign

[Angel Bob]

Important Note: I am not the DM in this case.

I'm playing in an Evil campaign right now with two of my best D&D buds. I and another player play two characters each so we have all the bases covered. We really enjoy our characters, because they're the most optimized ones we've made in a while, are high level, and have an absolutely hilarious group dynamic.

The problem is our DM. I don't think he really gets how to run a paragon-tier Evil campaign; so far, he seems to be running a low-level heroic campaign, just with more powerful enemies. We began in Sigil, but weren't there long, and have spent the rest of the campaign in small towns in the mortal countryside, where we keep getting quests from Good-aligned quest-givers to go destroy evil creatures.

To the DM's credit, most of these adventures have turned out to have a twist, and we normally get a chance to do some actual evil. For example, there was that time when a servant of Pelor tricked us into attacking a maximum-security prison, where demons, devils, and other fiends were trapped in an illusion and forced to live boring mortal lives. We killed the guards and broke the seals, loosing the fiends into the cosmos, which was fun. But there's still something... missing.

I've tried talking with the DM about how he should maybe change his playstyle, but then I realized that I couldn't exactly speak from experience. So I've turned to you, Playgrounders: how should a paragon-tier Evil campaign be run?

[DM Nate]

In my campaigns, regardless if they're "evil" or not, I usually present the characters with moral choices, so they get the choice to be actually "evil." For example, better magical equipment, but at the cost of human lives (usually making the equipment have Tainted stats if in 3.5e).

[Rhynn]

Any evil campaign (any campaign, really, but especially evil ones) should be run around the motivations and goals of the PCs.

Have you told your GM what you want to be doing?

[Angel Bob]

Well, I have recently communicated, persistently, that I'm sick of the mortal plane and want to adventure in other worlds.

But I suppose that is one thing -- our characters don't really have very defined goals. Most of us have decent-length backstories, but none of us have an agenda.

Rhynn, I think you may have hit the nail on the head. But since a DM can always use more help, by all means, if anyone else has any suggestions for the shape of the campaign...

[Red Fel]

Rhynn, I think you may have hit the nail on the head. But since a DM can always use more help, by all means, if anyone else has any suggestions for the shape of the campaign...

I agree; Rhynn has it in one.

Evil beings are generally seen as selfish and self-centered, in contrast with Good's selflessness. Your PCs, unless they have an obligation or some loyalty, shouldn't be hopping after questgivers like a bunch of errand-boys. Don't be afraid to take matters into your own hands. Found a haunted castle? Don't exorcise it - redecorate and move in! Give the undead inhabitants the choice between fealty and annihilation! Got thrown out of town? Don't seek their forgiveness - seek their fear! Provoke a nearby horde of orcs into attacking, and then offer the people your aid in exchange for their undying devotion!

The point is that, unlike Good adventurers sometimes do, you shouldn't be waiting for adventures to fall into your lap. Take the reins and start carving out your place in the world. If your GM gets the message, he'll fall into line and provide you with plenty of merry mayhem. If he doesn't, it'll be a fun ride before it ends.

Step back and talk to the other players. Figure out what you all want. Then start driving the campaign in that direction. Want to conquer a nation? Start building armies, building alliances, building influence. Want to become a lich? Start gathering arcane relics, books, sacrifices. Want to kill a god? Have fun with that. But try pushing out on your own. The GM will get the idea.

(Although, technically, telling him in advance that you're working towards these goals is probably a good idea too.)

[veti]

One word: threats.

An Evil party - especially a high-level, high tier one - is a threat to pretty much everyone around. Including, and this is important, other parties of the same type, but significantly higher level.

By now you must have attracted the notice of some of these, and you should have a constant feeling of being barely one step ahead of the kind of enemies that make you look like a random encounter. Admittedly it can be hard to really threaten a high-tier character, but the only answer to cheese is more cheese, and the enemy should have that by the shovel-load. It should be about all you can do to sit down long enough to even pose the question "what next?", let alone get bored debating it.

[AttilaTheGeek]

What does an evil character want? Power! There's no way around it. If you want to do Evil, more power means more evil. As Xykon himself once said, "You know what does equal power? Power. Power equals power. Crazy, huh?" Or, to quote The Matrix: "What do all men with power want? More power."

Finally, in the words of George Orwell in 1984: "Power is not a means, it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power."

If you want to do Evil, don't wait for opportunities to come to you. You have to be proactive! Go out your own, find some people, and then kill them and reanimate them, mind-control them, subjugate them, take their stuff, or, you know, evil stuff. You can do it!

[DM Nate]

If you want to do Evil, don't wait for opportunities to come to you. You have to be proactive! Go out your own, find some people, and then kill them and reanimate them, mind-control them, subjugate them, take their stuff, or, you know, evil stuff. You can do it!

You know, stuff that would make your mother proud!

Like this!

[Rhynn]

If you want to do Evil, more power means more evil.

That would make for a painfully flat and implausible character.

Characters should have actual motivations. Rampaging, murdering sadists are boring and one-dimensional.

A good Evil character is Evil because he/she is willing to do unconscionable things in the pursuit of some goal. If they want power, they want it for a real reason, not so they can force a bunch of people to build a torture factory and herd everybody else into it. Look at Raistlin, Littlefinger, Yyrkoon, Thanquol, Darth Revan etc. - these characters are far more interesting than raving mad dogs (like, say, Gregor Clegane, Darth Sion...).

Playing characters with real motivations makes for more varied and interesting campaigns than playing some crazy bastards who murder, rob, and torture everyone for no reason.

[HighWater]

Characters should have actual motivations. Rampaging, murdering sadists are boring and one-dimensional.

Well, depends a bit on their methods (the means to the End that is Power), but I'm sure the players can think of their own personal goals to prevent Cardboard Character Syndrome.

@OP: I think the message to take away from this thread is that an interesting Evil campaign requires Player Initiative, unless the players are enlisted in the service of some Elder Evil (which can get you a bunch more appropriate quests). It can't be a series of loosely related quests if you want to play Epic (as in Awesome, not as as level20+) Evil, you should either have a clear and proper mission, or a free hand in your doings. Take this to your DM and ask for either more player agency (to hell with quests... literally), or a much more intensive campaign through other means (epic story-telling, preferably with player input).

Good luck!

[Angel Bob]

Just an update from the OP: I relayed the "player initiative" suggestion to my teammate and the DM, and they both agreed that would probably make the campaign run more smoothly.

It soon became obvious that my fellow player was not a tactical thinker or an ideas guy, so I've become the evil mastermind of this group. I brought an aspect of my PC's backstory (betrayed by the Pharaoh-General of his homeland and left for dead in a pyramid until he found a portal) and brought it to the foreground (now he wants to take over this kingdom so he can lead its armies against his homeland and take revenge). The rest of the PCs are going along with it because they've got nothing better to do, and ruling people sounds fun. (Such are the dynamics of a group in which three are Chaotic Evil and only one is Lawful...)

I've drawn up a 14-point plan for taking over the kingdom, which we will begin to act on once our DM has composed some information about the kingdom's workings and weaknesses. Until then, we will complete the dungeon he so lovingly crafted for us. Who knows? Maybe we can actually wrangle some help for our plans from the lich (whether he likes it or not).

So... thanks for your help, all, and I think our campaign has some adequate direction, now that I'm steering. By all means, though, continue discussion if there's anything left to say.

[AttilaTheGeek]

That would make for a painfully flat and implausible character.

Characters should have actual motivations. Rampaging, murdering sadists are boring and one-dimensional.

A good Evil character is Evil because he/she is willing to do unconscionable things in the pursuit of some goal. If they want power, they want it for a real reason, not so they can force a bunch of people to build a torture factory and herd everybody else into it. Look at Raistlin, Littlefinger, Yyrkoon, Thanquol, Darth Revan etc. - these characters are far more interesting than raving mad dogs (like, say, Gregor Clegane, Darth Sion...).

Playing characters with real motivations makes for more varied and interesting campaigns than playing some crazy bastards who murder, rob, and torture everyone for no reason.

You are completely right: everything you said is what I should have said, but didn't. What I meant to say was that the acquisition of power is a good intermediate goal for an evil character, because whatever the character really wants (be it revenge, the "greater good", uncovering a secret, protecting somewhere or someone, or just power for its own end) will be easier to achieve with a few more levels (or servants, or gold, or spell slots). However, rereading that post, what I actually wrote was pretty much the opposite; please disregard that train wreck of a post. Sorry about that, it just came out sounding completely different than it did in my head.


(I quoted The Matrix? Seriously, past me?)