That Annoying Desire to make Systems

[Grytorm]

Don't you just hate that itch to make a new game. A masterpiece to show them all how it should have been done the first time. It comes and goes, some of the ideas are halfway good. But you know the system is probably to really finish by yourself. The project a major undertaking that is unlikely to ever really take off and become a star in the gaming world.

What have you thought of for a fantasy heartbreaker? Did you ever do it? Did you ever finish it? Do you still play it? I'm curious. What has been pondered.

My latest idea would be D20 based generic fantasy. Aiming for very D&D esque setting trappings. But the main ideas I had was that the system would have 15 classes, one for each combination of two attributes. Each class would have the core features but Archetypes would expand this greatly. Not just a short replacemen of class features but a 2 page spread replacing and changing a class deeply. Also feats and skills would be worth more. Skills probably advance special abilities as you level. You would only ge 5 feats in a career but each would be big and character defining. Scaling with levels, reaching new heights.
(Truthfully, I only really wanted to post the description. But the information would be nice.)

[SixWingedAsura]

Two words: Joker Core.

Explanation: Do you dislike systems that rely on pure luck to do even the simplest of tasks? Tired of trying to perform a memorable or cool action only to have it fail because your dice have a love affair with nat 1s? Would you like more control over your destiny? Coming soon, Joker Core: A playing-card based system that's quick to pick up, quick to learn and keeps YOU in control of your character.

(Okay, I'm shilling, but yeah. I've been working on a system for well over half a year and I think I'm close to completion...)

[NichG]

These days I tend to homebrew to the degree that its effectively making a system for each campaign. The timeline is generally something like 2-3 months system development followed by a 1.5 year campaign followed by the next round of system development (either something completely different, or an update of one of the previous campaign rule-sets).

As a result I've gone through about four editions of '7thscape' (combination of 7th Sea and Planescape originally, but it ended up getting revised for some other distinct fantasy worlds), did a ~100 page D&D supplement for Gilded Flasks, and am now running 'Memoir' which is a from-the-ground-up construction that is pretty much explicitly single-use since the major premise of the game is exploring a mechanically-integrated central mystery.

[veti]

I spent the mid 80s doing that. All I can remember of it now is that it was a skill-based system using percentage dice, and without classes.

I ran it a few times, kept tweaking the rules... and eventually gave up when I discovered Rolemaster. I don't know if my system would ever have been any good - but RM/MERP was 'good enough' to distract me at the time.

[Gavran]

I've never had the desire at all and I have a lot of sympathy for the people that do. :s

I mean, if you enjoy making it that's great but so many people think they've made the perfect system and that once they release it'll be wildly successful only to have it never even break from obscurity. Even if it's actually really good, the lack of marketing power alone...

It just makes me feel really bad for them. :c I'd hate to pour so much work and care into something only for it crash.

[Ansem]

{{scrubbed}}

[SixWingedAsura]

E{{scrubbed}}.

Whoah dude, chill. Some of us just make systems not for the fame, but just because we think we have an idea that will be fun. I doubt I'll make so much as a cent off of my system, I'm just doing it because I think it's fun. Calm yer tits.

[erikun]

Yep, happens all the time. My first attempt was back in the 90s when I was just familiar with AD&D and Vampire: The Masquerade. It was a 2d6+stat system that was similar to AD&D and used Vampire's method of spending XP to increase stats, perhaps with some Tri-Stat influence. Generating a few characters showed that the whole thing was pretty broken overall.

My most recent idea was a D&D4e revision, where powers are based on power sources and combat role, not by class, meaning that any sort of defender could choose defender powers and any sort of arcane user could choose arcane powers. Oh, and tiers were simply new abilities/powers and optional, meaning players could play a 25th level campaign and still be relying on just "mundane" skills and powers. You a group could start the game at 1st level and be choosing superheroic abilities.

The biggest reason I don't pursue these ideas is an obvious lack of use. Even if I do make this awesome D&D4e revised system with a ton of original and balanced powers, who is going to play it? Even if I do create a "fixed" version of D&D3e that solves all the problems I find in the system, when am I going to spend my time using it? I've already moved onto other systems that do much the same thing better. I'd probably be better off simply spending time coming up with a few houserules or campaign material for Burning Wheel, or HeroQuest, or Fate instead.

Oh, I certainly have other ideas for systems. But the reasonable ones aren't along the lines on "Take D&D and modify it" anymore. (Which ironically means that they'd take more work to be practical.)

[Ansem]

{{scrubbed}}

[ghendrickson]

{{scrubbed}}

You really need to calm down

[Airk]

{{scrubbed}}

[Grinner]

{{scrubbed}}

[ghendrickson]

Thank you Airk

[Rhynn]

{{scrubbed}}.

It's okay, it gets better once you get out of high school.

[Mr. Mask]

I'll always be tinkering with one game system or another. Sometimes tabletop, sometimes video game. Have a number of design documents and notes for system,s but I'm working on two in particular (have an RPG ready for testing, but I haven't been able to get the testers).

One thing that really prompts me to think of tabletop systems, is when I see there's nothing else out there that fills the gap. Can you think of any fantasy table tennis/ping pong tabletop RPGs? You can't? That makes me feel like working out the mechanics for one (though admittedly, I'd be just as happy with a video game table tennis RPG).

[Grinner]

One thing that really prompts me to think of tabletop systems, is when I see there's nothing else out there that fills the gap. Can you think of any fantasy table tennis/ping pong tabletop RPGs? You can't? That makes me feel like working out the mechanics for one

Here's our source material.

Okay. Let's get to work.

(though admittedly, I'd be just as happy with a video game table tennis RPG).

That couldn't be too hard...I remember playing this ping pong-like flash game some time ago, which would be very simple to replicate. Implement that as a minigame attached to a walkabout with static NPCs, and you're done.

That, or ping pong-themed turn-based combat.

[Airk]

Anyway, to wander back to the original question:

I made a game once. It was a percentile skill+stat amalgamation. I can't remember why, but it sounded like a good idea at the time, and I was annoyed with the games I was exposed to at the time. I was pretty pleased with some of it, and learned some important lessons, but at the end of several years and a couple of campaigns run in it, I realized that I didn't really have a reason to keep working on it, because it didn't really do anything all that magical.

These days, I find it more interesting to read what other people have done, because they're almost always several steps ahead of me in terms of thinking this stuff through.

[Jay R]

I started a game design once. My approach was to start with a set of core principles and design around them. As I recall they were something like:


General principle 1. Weapons should act like real weapons, armor like real armor, and shields like real shields.
1a. Shields are not static. To block a blow with a shield requires a successful roll.
1b. Armor does not reduce the probability of being hit - it reduces the damage done.
1c. The difference in different weapons should have something to do with how they work. A mace isn't just a weapon that does less damage than a sword; it crushes but doesn't cut.
1d. Damage should affect what you can do, not just be a set of points. If your leg is hit by a sword, you can no longer run. If your hip is hit by a mace, you are completely disabled.
1e. Reach of the weapon affects more than the order of attack. If the spearman hits, the dagger fighter can't. If the dagger fighter gets past the spear range into dagger range, the spear can't attack (until the spearman successfully chokes up.)
1f. Actions in a fight are directly competitive. Any non-surprise attack is a opposed roll of one fighter's attacking skill and the other fighter's defending skill.
<This list went on for awhile.>

General principal 2. The rules should not be too complex.

Then I looked over my notes and gave up.

[Rhynn]

General principal 2. The rules should not be too complex.

Then I looked over my notes and gave up.

I appreciate the joke, but there's actually several RPGs that meet both 1a. through 1f. and 2. ... Artesia: Adventures in the Known World, HârnMaster, The Riddle of Steel, RuneQuest...

Meanwhile, there's plenty of games that don't meet any of 1. but also fail 2.

[Seerow]

I sympathize. I get the same thing, where I'll get the itch when I have no time to work on it, then when I do get the time, I work for a day or so, then the itch goes away until I have no time again. I've been working on my heartbreaker for a few years now, on and off again, and probably have a hundred pages or so worth of material thus far, but still nowhere near being done. Mechanically it's something like a hybrid of 3e/4e D&D, with a couple unique twists and a multiclassing system similar to older Final Fantasy titles or Bravely default (pick a main class, sub class, get support abilities to choose from based on those classes). The fluff/cosmology is heavily inspired by Stormlight Archives, with almost all magic originating from various spirits that individuals can create bonds with to gain power.

One day I will finish it. But at the rate I'm going, by the time I do I'll be an old man playing it with my grandchildren.

[NichG]

With my group, there are just certain things I've noticed that on running for roughly the same players for years I can customize things to adapt to their tendencies. A lot of the stuff I end up making would really just not work well for other groups, so the entire purpose is in-house use.

For example, I've had players who really like to find powerful combos, mechanical interactions, etc - but they're already too familiar with base D&D for that to be as fun for them anymore. So running variants on D&D that intentionally disrupt the usual builds but make new things necessary helps keep that fresh. I found that out after running E6 and one of my players brought up that poring through the books trying to find a way to boost his CL high enough to make CL20 items in E6 was a cool research project and made him feel like he was actually playing a wizard for once because of the research -> power aspect of it. So after that I've tried to incorporate that sort of mechanical complexity into what I run and to change it up constantly with new subsystems, etc.

[Mr. Mask]

Here's our source material.

Okay. Let's get to work.

That couldn't be too hard...I remember playing this ping pong-like flash game some time ago, which would be very simple to replicate. Implement that as a minigame attached to a walkabout with static NPCs, and you're done.

That, or ping pong-themed turn-based combat.

There's also this.

I've always loved strategy and turn based games, at the same time as not particularly enjoying most of the ones out there. So turn based strategic ping pong would be my focus. to start with, I'd need a good mechanical base. Working out how difficulty of a shot is handled, and levels of success/failure, how your opponent predicts where the ball will go and how early. Once you get a good mechanical base, stuff like different techniques and other mechanics fall into place.

[Dimers]

What have you thought of for a fantasy heartbreaker? Did you ever do it? Did you ever finish it? Do you still play it? I'm curious. What has been pondered.

I'd love to be able to run a few games in my own system, but that's at least another decade in the making -- probably more, based on progress so far. On the other hand, I'm enjoying the process ... fiddling with math, learning about what players and gamemasters really want to see in a game, writing evocatively. So I don't care too much if I ever finish.

I did a fantasy-heartbreaker AD&D ("Very Advanced D&D", I modestly named it) back when I was a teen. Worked fine for that period of life, playing with my puerile friends who enjoyed instigating trouble. Probably not so good for a general audience.

[lunar2]

i've had that itch off and on since i was 13, long before i ever actually played a game of D&D. when i was younger, my attempts always ran into an issue of being overly complex. as in take one stat, run it through a formula with a skill to get your actual modifier for your roll, then determine how much mana your going to spend, then roll to see if it succeeds, then roll for the effect, and plug that effect into another formula based on how much mana you spent and how well you could use that technique, then compare that to any modifiers your target may have. oh, and everything is completely skill based, and you level up skills by using them or studying them, and you level up stats by exercising.

now, i just tinker with modifying 3.5. a little here, a little there. post something as i get it, and hope somebody gives some feedback, and that that feedback would actually be useful, instead of complaining about how i'm doing it wrong (which is not to say critiques on balance or power level, but complaints based on ideological differences because my style isn't their style)

[Ravens_cry]

I'm more a tweaker and a stealer. I am taking the wealth system from d20 modern and tweaking it a little for a Old Stone Age setting Pathfinder game. I think the idea fits a Stone Age gift economy a lot more than carting around any kind of coinage, whatever the material.

[Judge_Worm]

I too know how it feels. I've even half started a dozen or so. My favorite was going to be a stripped down 3.5/PF clone. All races would be built off of a standard +6 to abilities (i.e. human +1,+1,+1,+1,+1,+1; dwarf +2,+2,0,0,+2,0). Classes would be balanced, and stuck in a category (martial, arcane, stealth/diplomacy, divine), monsters could be snatched from any source (no cr) the GM felt was a fair challenge. Alignment was class dependant (each category of class would have 5 classes, and you'd have to be within a single step). Never got much further than that though.

[nedz]

In the early days this was practically a requirement if you actually wanted to run a game — the rules were somewhat incomplete. I did once start writing a system and even got to run a brief play test. It was a while ago and I'm not sure I'll ever pick it up again — though there were some novel ideas which I have considered porting to a d20 system.

[veti]

I started a game design once. My approach was to start with a set of core principles and design around them. As I recall they were something like:

It looks like your notes could be summed up as: "The game must not be like D&D." Or to put it another way, you made a list of the features of D&D that you didn't like, so your system was almost entirely defined by what it shouldn't do.

As Rhynn points out, it's not as hard as your list makes it look. But by thinking entirely in negative terms, you pretty much made it look impossible.

My approach was to steal ideas I did like, from multiple different systems, and try to put them together into a coherent whole. I'm not sure now where I got the ideas of "opposed rolls", "percentage bonus" and "wound levels" from, but I'm damn' sure I didn't come up with anything so original by myself...

[Cikomyr]

I know it's not the question, but I still want to pitch in with what I want to make.

I want to make a Fantasy strategy video game. Something that better reflect the abstract aspect of ruling the land; you shouldn't be able to see where your Heroes are. In fact, you shouldn't be able to control the "Adventurers" in your employ! For hell's sake, they are as likely to run around opening Demon Tombs as they are from stopping the bandits.

[Mr. Mask]

My Life as a King might interest you.