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    Default Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    So... melee fighting styles. Two-Handed Weapons, tend to be considered the strongest (and with Uber-Charges... honestly, who can blame them?), with Two-Weapon Fighting costing too many feats, and costing more money (two weapons to one), Shield and Swordís defence isnít worth the sheer power of the Two-Handed Weapons, and having a spare hand, is just completely dumb.

    But you see, thatís not all. When it comes to weapons, there is very little uniqueness between them. The only difference between a longsword and battle-axe, is simply their critical modifiers, the only difference between a battle-axe and a warhammer is that one does slashing damage, and the other does bludgeon damage, with feats doing nothing to build on these differences.

    I intend to change that in this thread. Not only do I seek to improve two-weapon fighting, shield and sword, and empty-hand fighting, (Two-Handed Fighting doesnít need any improvements), but I intend to flesh out weapon-specific feats, to make your weapon choice much more important and engaging.

    Oh and all the following feats can be selected as Fighter Bonus Feats, because they're all about fighting with weapons, which is what a fighter does.


    Work in Progress

    Two-Weapon Fighting Feats - Complete, pending Feedback
    Shield and Sword Feats - In-progress
    Empty-Hand Feats - Not Started
    Weapon-Specific Feats - Not Started

    Changelog
    02/06/2014, 0000: Modified Parrying Blade, IOTWF, ILF & IPB made into 'Greater'. Added Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Lighting Flurry, Improved Parrying Blade, Oversized Weapon Mastery, Lighting Flurry Mastery and Parrying Blade Mastery
    20/07/2014 1805: Added the Shield and Sword Feats
    21/07/2014 1324: Clarified the caster level of You Shall Not Pass!, and added that Parrying Blade cannot be used whilst flat-footed.

    Iím putting this out rather early so that I can get feedback whilst I work.

    Two-Weapon Fighting Feats

    Two-Weapon Fighting
    Requirements:
    Dex 13
    Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. In addition, you can make as many attacks with your offhand weapon as with your primary weapon, using the same base attack bonus

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    So... yeah. Not only have I lowered the Dexterity requirements for the Two-Weapon Fighting, but Iíve rolled Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting into it as well. Some may see this feat as overpowered for basically being an Epic Feat. But honestly, Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting shouldnít of been an Epic Feat, and the high Dexterity requirements, forced people to have a dexterity focus, which could cripple their damage for not having a high strength.


    Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting
    Requirements:
    Two-Weapon Fighting, Str 13.
    Benefit: When wielding a one-handed weapon in your off hand, you take penalties for fighting with two weapons as if you were wielding a light weapon in your off hand, in addition, when wielding two one-handed weapons, you may add your full strength bonus to off hand weapon instead of half.

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    Thereís always been three possible choices when it comes to two-weapon fighting. Two light weapons, A one-handed weapon and a light-weapon, and two one-handed weapons. Usually, the later one hasnít been worthwhile. Iím planning to change, as well as differentiate the three possible two-weapon fighting styles. This starts with this feat, not only reduce the penalties of wielding two one-handed weapons down to the standard -2, but also increasing the strength bonus of your off hand weapon to full, giving you a significant damage increase.


    Two-Weapon Defence
    Requirements:
    Two-Weapon Fighting
    Benefit: When wielding a weapon in either hand, you gain a +1 bonus AC. This bonus in increased for every attack you can make using your BAB.

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    Another feat that was considered pretty much worthless, Two-Weapon Defence now scales by itself, as well as having its AC apply to touch AC as well as the norm, meaning that this feat should now be a strong consideration to anyone who is looking for more defence in a Two-Weapon Build.


    Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
    Requirements:
    Two-Weapon Fighting, BAB +6
    Benefit: Whenever you make an attack with a weapon in the main hand, and you don't normally have the option to attack with a weapon in the off hand, you can now make an attack with a weapon in the off-hand as well. e.g. If you attack someone with a standard action, you can use both your main hand and off-hand weapon.

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    A damn useful feat this is. With the out the need to have each attack costing a feat, we can open up more options for Two-Weapon Fighting. This is one of them, the ability to actually use your off-hand weapon in actions other than full-attack options should be easy to get for a Two-Weapon fighter, yet has always been insanely difficult... but not anymore.


    Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
    Requirements:
    Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, BAB+11
    Benefit: Whenever you are wielding a weapon in each hand, you get a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls. In addition, if you attack with both your main-hand and off-hand weapons, the damage is added together and treated as one attack when beneficial

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    Simple, but quite effective. Not only does the feat cancel out the penalties of TWFing - at least, if fighting with light weapons - with added damage, but it also allows you to bypass damage reduction, and other nasty effects much easier.


    Lighting Flurry
    Requirements:
    Two-Weapon Fighting
    Benefit: When wielding a light weapon in either hand, you can choose to make an extra attack with each weapon at your highest base attack bonus. However if you do, each attack made this round takes a -2 penalty.

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    The first of my unique feats, and it establishes how the light-weapon two-weapon fighting style is going to be like. Focusing on multiple attacks a round, the light-weapon TWF style will most likely work the best with per-hit damage increases which is popular for increasing the damage of current TWF.


    Parrying Blade
    Requirements:
    Two-Weapon Fighting
    Benefit: Once per turn, when you are attacked you may make an attack roll with your off-hand attack. If the attack roll is higher than your armour class, use it instead. This ability can only be used with a light weapon in your off-hand and a one-handed weapon in your main-hand. This feat cannot be used if you are flat-footed.
    Special: If you have the feat Two-Weapon Defence, you may add the bonus to AC you normally get from that feat as a bonus to the attack rolls made with this feat.

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    And finally, we have how the final TWF style will be working... focusing on defence. inspired by how fencers tend to use daggers to deflect or parry opponentís blades as well as similar class features, as well as having synergy with previous feats


    Improved Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting
    Requirements:
    Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, BAB +6
    Benefit: If you successfully hit an opponent with both of the weapons you wield, you deal extra damage equal to the base damage of both of your weapons +1.5x your STR. This extra damage is treated as the same type that your off-hand weapon deals normally for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and other effects related to damage type. You can gain this extra damage once per round against a given opponent, and only if you are wielding a one-handed weapon in each hand

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    So, how to give Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting more damage, without being too powerful? To put it simply, give them an improved version of two-weapon rend! Instead of just 1d6+1.5xStr, this feat also scales off the base damage of the weapons as well, so if you have two long swords, thatís 2d8 damage instead of 1d6. Thatís an average damage increase of... 6 damage, there abouts? So I think the feat is worth taking now. I hope.


    Improved Lighting Flurry
    Requirements:
    Lightning Flurry, BAB +6.
    Benefit: The penalty for iterative attacks from BAB, and for using the effect of Lightning Flurry is reduced by 1. This feat is only in effect when wielding a light weapon in either hand.

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    I... honestly have no idea what else to do with this feat. If people have any other ideas, please make them, and I donít like this feat, like, at all.


    Improved Parrying Blade
    Requirements:
    Parrying Blade, BAB +6.
    Benefit: Whenever you successfully fend off an attack using Parrying Blade, you may make an attack of opportunity against the attacker if they are within your melee range. Trip and disarm attempts get a +4 bonus during an attack of opportunity granted by this feat.

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    Parry, than Riposte, a very normal turn of events during fencing, and much easier to do with a parrying blade I would imagine. Keeping with the fencing theme, I made it easier to trip or disarm your foeís during this AoO, because they would be off-balance


    Greater Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting
    Requirements
    : Improved Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, BAB +11
    Benefit: When wielding a one-handed weapon in either hand, they are treated as two-handed weapons, this improves the strength bonus to damage to 1.5x your Str modifier.

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    Simple but effective, GOTWF, not only gives your TWFer strong bonus damage from strength, but also allows you to use Power-Attack and the like for their full bonus damage. Some might consider this overpowered, but it does require level 11 and 3 feats to get, so I believe its worth the cost.


    Greater Lighting Flurry
    Requirements:
    Improved Lighting Flurry, BAB +11.
    Benefit: Whenever you use the effect of Lighting Flurry to get an extra attack with each weapon, you instead gain two bonus attacks with each weapon.

    Greater Parrying Blade
    Requirements:
    Improved Parrying Blade, BAB+11
    Benefit: You may use the effect of the ĎParrying Bladeí feat an amount of times equal to your attack of opportunity per round, or the number of attacks you can make from your BAB, whichever is higher.

    Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting Mastery
    Requirements:
    Greater Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, BAB +16.
    Benefit: When you a wielding a one-handed weapon in each hand, it is treated as being two-sizes larger when it comes to base damage. In addition, the effects of Improved Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting can be applied to the same enemy any amount of times per turn.

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    So... yeah. Massive, massive damage increase here. Even if you imply the base damage increase to normal longswords, its still an average increase of damage 7 per sword... and remember, IOTWFís effect scales of the base damage as well, AND can be used multiple times per turn now.


    Lighting Flurry Mastery
    Requirements:
    Greater Lighting Flurry, BAB +16.
    Benefit: When you a wielding a light weapon in each hand, The penalty to an extra attacks, including, but not limited to, irritative attacks from BAB and Lighting Flurry, is reduced by 2.

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    So... yeah. From seven attacks at 15/15/15/11/7/3, to seven attacks at 16 a-piece... that is a BIG jump in accuracy. Maybe too big. Iíll wait to see on feedback.

    Edit: Okay, I changed it so the penalty is reduced by two. Meaning that the seven attack are 16/16/16/13/10/7, which is a jump in accuracy, but not as big as previously.


    Parrying Blade Mastery
    Requirements:
    Greater Parrying Blade, BAB +16
    Benefit: When you a wielding a one-handed weapon in the main-hand, and a light weapon in the off-hand, all your attacks are treated as touch attacks. Additionally, whenever you successfully damage an opponent with a melee weapon, you can make a free trip or disarm attempt.

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    So... not focused on defence, so it might seem a little odd, but it takes the trip and disarm from improved to the next level, and it makes sense to me that a fencer it good at finding the weak spots in the enemiesís defence.


    Sword and Shield


    Shield Specialization
    Choose one type of shield from the following list: buckler, heavy, tower or light. When using a shield of the appropriate type, you increase its shield bonus to AC by 2 and reduce its check-penalty by 2. In addition, you apply your shield bonus to your touch AC, and on checks or rolls to resist bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, or trip attempts against you.

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    Just like how we started with the most important feat for TWFing, weíll start with a benchmark of Shield Fighting, Shield specialization. Of course, it doesnít just increase your AC now - with the AC increase being higher than before - but reduces the penalty, AND has the effect of Shield Ward, all rolled into one, single, feat. Making it much, much stronger


    Active Shield Defence
    Requirements: Shield Specialization
    When fighting defensively and using a shield, you gain an extra bonus to AC equal to 2x the amount of attacks you can make in a full-attack action, and half the penalty on attacks, attack of opportunities have no penalty.

    When using the total defense action and a shield, you gain an extra bonus to AC equal to 2x the amount of attacks you can make in a full-attack action, you may use a move action instead of a standard action for total defence, and make attacks of opportunity. If you attack while in total defense, you take a -4 penalty to attack.
    .
    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    Basically supersized Active Shield Defence here, increasing the AC increases, as well as reducing the penalties to attack. Though of course, you canít fight total defence, and use a full-attack option.


    Agile Shield Fighter
    Requirements: Shield Specialization.
    Whenever you make a shield bash, you do not lose that shieldís bonus to AC. Additionally, when attacking with both a shield and one-handed weapon, you are treated as having the two-weapon fighting feat.

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    So, no Improved Shield Bash, instead Iím skipping straight to Agile Shield Fighter. Not only does it have the effect of the improved shield bash already, but it has the effect of two-weapon fighting rolled into it, so it is quite a lot stronger.


    Spell Shield
    Requirements: BAB +6
    Whenever you a wielding a shield, you gain Spell Resistance equal to 10+your shield AC. If you already have Spell Resistance that is greater than this, you may instead add 1/2 of your shield AC as a bonus to that Spell Resistance

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    Shield is about defense, and what better defence is there, then defence against spells? Plus, with the ability to still be relevant when you pick up a strong SR, means that this feat should always be good to take.


    Inlindl School
    Requirements: BAB +6
    At the start of your turn, you can choose to sacrifice your shield bonus to AC in exchange for a bonus on melee attack rolls equal to that bonus, and a bonus on melee damage rolls equal to one-half that bonus. This effect lasts until the start of your next turn.

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    Quite simply this, took a feat that was okay, but not that good, and turned it into something that is basically the equivalent to Power Attack for shield-users. Course you can actually combine it with Power Attack to gain a damage bonus equal to 1.5 the shield bonus sacrificed if you really want to...


    Dutiful Guardian
    Requirements: BAB +6, Active Shield Defence
    Once per turn, you can select one ally within 10ft, +5ft per iterative attack from BAB. By taking a -2 penalty to attack rolls, that ally gains a bonus to their dodge AC equal to +2, or 1/2 of your shield AC, whichever is higher. This effect lasts until the start of your next turn or until you are more than 10 feet from the chosen ally, whichever comes first.

    Additionally, whenever you selected ally is attacked, you can take an immediate action to instantly exchange places with that character.

    Both you and the ally must be able to move into and legally occupy the new space in order for this feat to function. For example, an incorporeal character inside a solid object couldn't exchange places with a corporeal character, nor could a nonflying creature exchange places with an airborne flying creature.

    Special: If you are benefiting from defensive fighting or total defence, the selected ally gains a bonus to their dodge AC, equal to 1/2 of the AC bonus received from defensive fighting or total defence

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    Okay... this is by far, one of the biggest feats I have seen, as it gives you a lot. Basically, this combines Dutiful Guardian and Constant Guardian from Drow of the Underdark, and upgrades them. Making the range and AC of the feats higher. It might be a bit much... but if your gonna be a tank, you need to be able to defend your allies, and this lets you do that very well.


    Improved Shield Bash
    Requirements: BAB +6, Agile Shield Fighter
    You shieldís damage die is increased as if it was one size larger. At BAB+16, the shieldís damage die increases again, so that it is treated as if it was two sizes larger.

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    Remember when I said there was no more Improved Shield Bash? Well, I LIED. Here, is the new and improved Improved Shield Bash, allowing you to smash peopleís face in!


    Spell Reflection
    Requirements: Spell Shield, BAB +11
    When wielding a shield, and a spell fails to penetrate your spell resistance, you can attempt to reflect the spell back to its caster. The check is 1d20+shield AC bonus+Con modifier vs enemy caster level.

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    I admit, Iím not exactly confident on this feat, as its a bit iffy. However, I wanted to upgrade Spell Shield somehow, and apart from full on spell immunity, all I could think of was spell reflection, and I wanted you to have a reasonable chance of succeeding, but not be 100% unless you really push things... so... hence the strange check.


    Constant Guardian
    Requirements: Dutiful Guardian, BAB+11
    The attack penalty from Dutiful Guardian is reduced by 2. Additionally, you can now take a -3 penalty to attack rolls at the start of your turn, and grant all allies that are applicable for your Dutiful Guardian feat, a bonus to dodge AC equal to 1/3 of your shield bonus. You cannot use this ability and Dutiful Guardian
    Special: If you are benefiting from defensive fighting or total defence, the selected ally gains a bonus to their dodge AC, equal to 1/3 of the AC bonus received from defensive fighting or total defence

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    A nifty little boost to Dutiful Guardian, removing the attack penalty, as well as giving you the option to apply a AoE version, though the boost to AC is smaller if you do use it this way.


    Shield Charge
    Requirements: Improved Shield Bash, BAB+11
    Whenever you successfully make a charge attack when equipped with a shield, you may make a free trip and a free bullrush attempt. They do not provoke attacks of opportunity, and have a +4 bonus. If you succeed with the bullrush attempt, you do not have to follow the enemy in order to push him back further than 5ft. If you succeed with your trip attempt, make another attack with your main-hand weapon. If you lose the trip attempt, the enemy does not get a trip attempt against you

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    Another feat moved up and improved significantly. Now, shield charge doesnít just let you make a trip attempt when you rush, but gives you a bullrush attempt, and increases the power of them both. I was thinking of giving you a damage bonus, but I think that this is enough.


    YOU SHALL NOT PASS!
    Requirements: Constant Guardian, BAB +16
    Once per encounter, you may cast Wall of Force as an extraordinary ability, with a caster level equivalent to your level. If you do, the wall must have one section directly next to you. This Wall of Force can not be bypassed by abilities such as dimension door or teleport. Whilst the Wall of Force still exists, you cannot move. If you willing move from the spot where you cast Wall of Force, or willing allow and ally you move you, the Wall of Force is dispelled.

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    What better way to defend your allies, than by summon a big wall in your enemies path? Once per encounter should be more than enough, even if you are rooted for the duration of the spell.


    Shield Slam
    Requirements: Shield Charge, BaB +16
    Once per round, if you hit an enemy with a shield bash attack, the enemy is dazed for one round. A DC10+1/2 your character level+Str negates this effect.

    Spoiler: Thoughts
    Show
    So, the final old shield feat to get a buff... and oh boy, its a bigun, Shield Slam now actives, whenever you manage to hit an enemy with a shield bash, guys immune to critical hits arenít automatically exempt from it! Still, to make sures its not overpowered, you can only trigger it once per round.
    Last edited by Tempestfury; 2014-08-09 at 05:37 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    I've heard the line, "If you want to take Two-Weapon Fighting, DON'T!" and this seems like it would fix that. Though I'm not one to say for sure since I've never seen the original Two-Weapon Fighting in action.

  3. - Top - End - #3

    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    That's a bit harsh... but your right in that Two-Weapon fighting is considered a sub-optiminal fighting style due to the number of feats required (one feat per iterative attack... really?) and the fact that you normally only get the off-hand weapon attacks during a full-attack action.

    Actually, that reminds me... I think I know what the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting should be.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    A minor nitpick - right now, by RAW, you can have two off-hand attacks per a main hand attack if you have Improved 2WF.

    Two-Weapon Defense and Parrying blade do exactly the same as well. Basically, ITWF and Parrying Blade are more or less redundant.
    Last edited by Xerlith; 2014-05-31 at 04:23 PM.
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    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    Clarified ITWF, so it only works when you don't normally have an option to attack with your off-hand weapon... thinking about it, that also includes the Double Hit Feat... huh.

    But yes, I know that Parrying Blade and TWD have the same effect. That does not make Parrying Blade redundant, because the AC bonuses as untyped, they stack. Admittedly, I would like to have Parrying Blade be a defensive feat, but not have the same effect, but I'm unable to think of any ideas.

    To be fair, limited ideas is a problem for mine, as I want to make a Greater TWFing feat, and two other feats for each TWF fighting style, but I'm coming up blank...

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Halfling in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tempestfury View Post
    Admittedly, I would like to have Parrying Blade be a defensive feat, but not have the same effect, but I'm unable to think of any ideas.
    Parrying Style
    Prereq: Two Weapon Fighting
    Once per turn, when you are attacked you may make an attack roll with your off-hand attack. If the attack roll is higher than your armour class, use it instead. This ability can only be used with a light weapon in your off-hand.

  7. - Top - End - #7

    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    I suppose... and it does fit into the scheme of how the two-weapon fighting feats are going...

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    Improved Parrying Style
    Prereq: Parrying Style, BAB +5
    Whenever you parry an attack, you may make an attack of opportunity against that attacker, with your off-hand weapon.

    Greater Improved Parrying Style
    Prereq: Improved Parrying Style, BAB +12
    You may parry a number of attacks each round, equal to the number of attacks you can make during a full round action. Whenever you make an attack of opportunity from a parried attack, you attack the targets touch armour. (Because you are getting in close with a dagger, and finding the gaps. wew!)

  9. - Top - End - #9

    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    ... I really should of being able to think off those feats myself...

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Halfling in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    I'm not thinking them up on the spot, I have some inspiration from the Frank and K tome. It already solved two weapon fighting, but it is no longer the same game, so I'm just converting it back.

    Also, if you think about movies, and what people do in them, then you can get some pretty cool ideas just from that.

  11. - Top - End - #11

    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    The Frank and K tome? ... I've never heard of that...

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/User:Frank_and_K
    it is their work, and these days, includes anything on the gaming den forums (after community approval)

    They had an idea that each feat would get better with level, instead of having feat chains, so when you have the appropriate Base attack bonus from the feat, you get the corresponding ability

    Two-Weapon Fighting [Combat]
    When armed with two weapons, you fight with two weapons rather than picking and choosing and fighting with only one. Kind of obvious in retrospect.

    Benefits: This is a combat feat that scales with your Base Attack Bonus.

    +0: You suffer no penalty for doing things with your off-hand. When you make an attack or full-attack action, you may make a number of attacks with your off-hand weapon equal to the number of attacks you are afforded with your primary weapon.
    +1: While armed with two weapons, you gain an extra Attack of Opportunity each round for each attack you would be allowed for your BAB, these extra attacks of opportunity must be made with your off-hand.
    +6: You gain a +2 Shield Bonus to your armor class when fighting with two weapons and not flat footed.
    +11: You may Feint as a Swift action while fighting with two weapons.
    +16: While fighting with two weapons and not flat footed you may add the enhancement bonus of either your primary or your off-hand weapon to your Shield Bonus to AC.


    so with a base attack bonus of +6 you get the previous abilities as well
    Also, somewhere in the other stuff, they have a swashbuckler class that has Parry at first level, so that inspired the parrying dagger parrying thing.

  13. - Top - End - #13

    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    Huh, interesting. The BAB scaling reminds of the Tome of Awesome, I think it was called? I admit, I have taken inspiration from that with the scaling AC bonus of Two-Weapon Defence.

    Still, I think a feat like the one you've posted, is a bit too powerful to what I'm aiming for here...

    Oh and were you talking about the True Swashbuckler by any chance?
    Last edited by Tempestfury; 2014-05-31 at 05:46 PM.

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    Halfling in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    They wrote the beginnings of the Tome of Awesome. The Tome of Awesome keeps all the stuff they never finished, and as such can be very clunky, so I just sip from it.

    this one
    http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50350

  15. - Top - End - #15

    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    Modified Parrying Blade and added 7 feats. Two-Weapon Fighting feats are currently in a 'complete' stage, though I wouldn't mind coming up with more feats at a later date.

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    Halfling in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    The two weapon feats look good.

    I have a couple of ideas for shield feats...

    Evasion, but it doesn't stack with other evasion for improved evasion. So if you are a class that already gets evasion, this is not the feat for you.

    Spell resistance --> into reflect spells if you succeed on their save. with your shiny mirror shield.

    Somewhere in these forums is a stunning shield feat that would be interesting.


    and couple open hand feats

    Extra 5 foot step because of the momentum.
    snatch arrows, slap enemies to enrage them into duels.

  17. - Top - End - #17

    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    Yes... Spell Resistance for shields do make sense, as does spell reflection.

    Well, Deflect Arrows and Snatch arrows are already feats you can do with an empty-hand... though I do wonder if unarmed needs more feats now that I think about it...

    Slap someone to challenge them to a duel? If I remember correctly, that actually has links to history, where slapping someone with a glove challenged them to a duel.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tempestfury View Post

    Well, Deflect Arrows and Snatch arrows are already feats you can do with an empty-hand... though I do wonder if unarmed needs more feats now that I think about it...

    Slap someone to challenge them to a duel? If I remember correctly, that actually has links to history, where slapping someone with a glove challenged them to a duel.
    Unarmed needs to stop being a prerequisite for deflect arrows and snatch arrows. Empty handed defense could be used as a fighting style with either unarmed or just one empty hand. Make unarmed a new thing entirely on that.

    If you watch fencing, the way that they hold their hand behind them is to give them balance and momentum.
    So

    Open Hand
    Using the balance granted by a free hand, you move swiftly about the battle field.
    Prereq: None
    Effect: As long as you have a hand empty, you gain a +3 bonus to balance and tumble checks, and your base land speed is increased by 5 ft.

    Then Deflect arrows, and snatch arrows can branch off this. And this feat can be used with unarmed, one handed, or with a bow(when you aren't firing it).

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    I'm going to sound crazy, and that's fine, but why not make a lot of these options base rule options?

    Like instead of having to take a feat for TWF or Power Attack just let people do those actions as if all those feats were in place.

    Then if you take a feat you don't get rid of penalties but you gain versility. You could then make tons of minor feats that apply to different fighting styles.

    Base Rule: You may power attack and take a penalty to attack roll and bonus to damage.

    Power Attack Feat: When you power attack you may apply the penalty to your AC instead of your attack or you may split it between the two.

    Non-casters get nice things, don't have to be so penalized for not specializing and we can homebrew tons of optional feats that increase versitility rather than power.
    Last edited by SpawnOfMorbo; 2014-06-04 at 10:34 AM. Reason: cersitility, why does that sound like a game of thrown reference?

  20. - Top - End - #20

    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    Its not a crazy idea as I've seen it elsewhere, and I like it to some degree. However, I do think that Two-Weapon Fighting should be a feat as it a difficult fighting style to learn and master, most likely the hardest in fact.

    As for Power Attack, that feat won't be appearing. Mentioned in my thoughts perhaps, but no actual appearence or remakes. At least in the first edition.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tempestfury View Post
    Its not a crazy idea as I've seen it elsewhere, and I like it to some degree. However, I do think that Two-Weapon Fighting should be a feat as it a difficult fighting style to learn and master, most likely the hardest in fact.

    As for Power Attack, that feat won't be appearing. Mentioned in my thoughts perhaps, but no actual appearence or remakes. At least in the first edition.
    That's the thing though, it is difficult to master for a commoner but a fighter? It should be childsplay . why? Because they are just that good.

    If a level 1 wizard can bend reality, why can't a fighter master a fighting style without taking extra out of class options?

    Taking up the mantle of a Non-Caster, your class should give you more than I roll and hit/miss.


    :)

  22. - Top - End - #22

    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    No, even if your a fighter. Two-Weapon Combat is not easy to learn, and would be far, far from child's play.

    You forget that at level 1, melee classes are generally strong than wizards and sorcerers, with the casters only getting more powerful as the game goes on. Quadratic Wizards. Linear Warriors.

  23. - Top - End - #23
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    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tempestfury View Post
    No, even if your a fighter. Two-Weapon Combat is not easy to learn, and would be far, far from child's play.

    You forget that at level 1, melee classes are generally strong than wizards and sorcerers, with the casters only getting more powerful as the game goes on. Quadratic Wizards. Linear Warriors.
    In the real world it is quite hard to learn two weapon fighting, however do you know what is harder? Bending reality with guesters and words.

    So why is it easier to bend reality in a fantasy game than it is to two weapon fight? By transitioning from our reality to fantasy, shouldn't two weapon fighting be easier than casting spells?

    Actually at low levels medium op casters versus non-casters tend to be equal or the caster wins. As you level up the casters just get more powerful. A standard action defeats a fighter, rogue, or barbarian... Grease, Glitterdust, or Sleep, some without a chance of failure. However no matter what the Non-Caster does there is always a chance forward failure (rolling a 1).

    I'm not saying get rid of linear fighter quadratic wizard. I'm just saying that basing the idea of what a Non-Caster can do within a fantasy game on what is realistic in the real world is a bit... Backwards.

  24. - Top - End - #24

    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    ... The rules of melee combat don't change, simply because its a fantasy world now. Therefore, it is still harder for people to learn how to use two-weapons at once then how to use a weapon effectively.

    You argument that 'Magic is hard in the real world, but easy in a fantasy world, so something hard in the real world, must automatically be easy in a fantasy world' makes NO sense. Do you know what else is hard? For a human to jump over 2.5 meters in height. Can humans now do that in D&D? Not easily.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tempestfury View Post
    ... The rules of melee combat don't change, simply because its a fantasy world now. Therefore, it is still harder for people to learn how to use two-weapons at once then how to use a weapon effectively.

    You argument that 'Magic is hard in the real world, but easy in a fantasy world, so something hard in the real world, must automatically be easy in a fantasy world' makes NO sense. Do you know what else is hard? For a human to jump over 2.5 meters in height. Can humans now do that in D&D? Not easily.
    You are saying that a fantasy fighter can't do anything a normal fighter type can't do? What? Have you not heard of Beowulf?

    I was using your explanation and turning it toward casters. So yes I agree, your argument does make no sense. I was asking why if you are taking the idea of hard in real life means hard in fantasy, then why isn't impossible in real life get translated over the same way?

    You are saying...

    Hard in real life = hard in fantasy game. (Non-casters)
    Impossible in real life = easy in fantasy game. (Casters)

    I'm asking you take that same logic and apply it across the board...

    Hard in real life = hard in fantasy game
    Impossible in real life = impossible in fantasy game.

    But since it is a fantasy game and we can suspend the thought of our reality for a while... Why not make for non-casters and casters...

    Hard in real life = easy in a fantasy game
    Impossible in real life = easy in a fantasy game.

    Why does magic get a free pass but non-magic does not?

    You seem to be ok with "a wizard did it" but not "they are just that good". I'm just suggesting that feats like what you made be part of the baseline for what non-magical (or spellcasters with highest class spell slot being 4th level... Such as the Paladin or ranger) can do... And let non-casters be... Well fantasy.

  26. - Top - End - #26

    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    Fantasy fighters can do what normal fighters cannot. I know that and accept that. However, that does not automatically mean that two-weapon fighting has become any easier to learn and it simply SHOULDN'T. Two-weapon fighting is an exotic and dangerous fighting style. And when I say dangerous, I mean to the USER, not the opponent. If you don't know what your doing, you could end up serious hurting yourself, maybe even losing a limb, which without quick enough medical attention, could kill you.

    The rules of the world are different. Allowing feats of magic and strength that simply aren't possible in real life. However, learning how to use a weapon and mastering it, is no easier to do in a fantasy world, than it was previously. A non-standard form of fighting like two-weapon fighting, is still going to be unusual to learn AND harder to learn.

    That is my opinion on the matter, and your arguments are insufficient to change my mind. So please, do not continue to persist with the argument, it is simply a waste of space and time.

  27. - Top - End - #27
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    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    I don't think the entire TWF routine is worth just one feat.

    If its done with two feats, perhaps the second feat can provide all of the iterative attacks using the off-hand weapons at the usual -5, -10 and -15 penalties.

    The feats below are an attempt to fold the existing TWF and MWF feats into a single series.

    ================================================== =====

    Off-Hand Fighting [Combat]
    You can fight with more than one weapon using your hands.
    Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with more than one weapon are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the off-hand penalty lessens by 6.
    Normal: For each off-hand weapon you wield, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary weapon and a -10 penalty to an attack with an off-hand weapon. If all of your your off-hand weapons are light, these penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
    Special: A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the off-hand combat style is treated as having Off-Hand Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisite for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor. A fighter may select Off-Hand Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.

    Improved Off-Hand Fighting [Combat]
    Prerequisites: Dex 13, Off-Hand Fighting, base attack bonus +6.
    Benefit: Whenever you can make one or more iterative attacks using your primary weapon, you can make an equal number of them with each off-hand weapon you wield.
    Special: A fighter may select Improved Off-Hand Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats. A 6th-level ranger who has chosen the off-hand combat style is treated as having Improved Off-Hand Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.
    Last edited by Andion Isurand; 2014-06-05 at 10:58 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #28

    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    I disagree. To me, it makes no sense, that if you've trained and become experienced enough to strike twice in a matter of seconds, then you should be able to do so with both swords, especially if you've trained with using both with the same amount of time.

    And no, TWF and MWF should stay separate, as the TWFing styles, don't translate that well to MWFing, Parrying Blade especially.

  29. - Top - End - #29
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    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    Ok several things.

    First the rules allready allow you to make attacks with your off-hand weapon outside of full attacks:

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD, Combat Section, Two-Weapon Fighting Paragraph
    If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways:

    If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
    The Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
    Second, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting is clearly intended to overcome the DR effect on dual wielding. The maximum you can lose from DR is about 25 points, and 15-20 is far more common pre-epics. The current add them together mechanic bothers me because it's the kind of sharp deviation from the rules at an odd point in the normal procedure that some obscure elements can probably abuse, as a class feature it might work because you can more tightly limit interactions. A feats harder to do that with without making it useless to specific classes. A simpler answer would be to make it add half BAB to damage rolls, at 20 for full BAB that negates upto DR20 and is actually a benefit against lower DR. Also lose the last line, it punish's light weapon wielders and the one a round limit needlessly kills it's intended purpose.

    Third, whilst i agree there are plenty of helpful and necessary effects in there. By the finish you haven't just put two weapon fighting on par with two-hander fighting. You's made it significantly better in every possible way. Pretty much everything after greater two-weapon fighting has no real business being available pre-epics due to how they upset the balance between two-hander and dual wield the other way, the last 3 in particular could each individually be a level 20 capstone in their own right, (though variants might be plausible earlier, a rouge could get to use touch AC on flanks before Lv20 without being a balance issue IMHO).

  30. - Top - End - #30

    Default Re: Melee Fighting Style Feats (PEACH)

    The extra attack only applies for bonus attacks. Is why there's class features that lets you attack with both weapons as a standard action. Or a feat.

    Additionally, yes, Greater-Two Weapon Fighting. The last line is about overcoming Damage Resistance, and the add them together mechanic? Yes, it is different I admit, but that doesn't mean it should be limited to JUST a class feature. After all, you have feats like Stormguard Warrior, or High Axe-Low Sword, giving you abilities that are different from the norm. That, and I'm afraid I don't understand what exactly your suggesting.

    Third... umm... when you say 'everything after Greater Two-Weapon Fighting' do you mean EVERYTHING under it, or do you mean the 'Mastery' feats? Because I admit, the mastery feats are pretty powerful, but compared to what wizards and probably martial adepts have at this level? I wouldn't exactly call it overpowered. And as for beating Two-Handed Fighting? I disagree... have you seen what a dragoon can dish out?

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