Knocking foes into other foes' squares

[ken-do-nim]

There doesn't seem to be a clear rule about what happens when you push a foe into another foe's square (or even for that matter into an ally's square).

The shock trooper feat is the only one that addresses this; it says if you bull rush a foe into another foe's square you get a trip attempt against each. That's great, but what if you don't have that feat? What if you have instead...

say...

Sun School! Yes, everybody's favorite feat on this forum. Inexorable progress of dawn allows you to push somebody back if you connect with your first 2 flurry attacks. I've been trying to think of good uses for that power, and pushing 2 foes together is the best I could think of. Well that, and slamming somebody into a wall.

So, how would you folk rule being pushed into an ally or being pushed into a wall works?

[Matthew]

Hmmn. Presumably, you cannot be pushed into a wall. In the case of the ally, I would have to say the ally needs to step back as well. Personally, I am all for separate rules for Close Quarter Fighting. I have been giving them some thought recently...

[Arbitrarity]

Dungeon smasher (or something) lets you smash things into walls with bull rushing...

My DM says the person being pushed gets a +2 circumstance as he is supported... if both fail, I think they both move back.

[Gamebird]

Since two creatures can't occupy the same space (exceptions for big size differences, or mounts, or squeezing rules), then one of them immediately falls prone. Probably the one you pushed, but I suppose it would be a contested check between the two.

[Saph]

The way our DM does it is to call for Reflex saves. Whoever 'wins' the Reflex save contest gets to treat the square as their own and can act from it. The other can't act and has to move to another square.

- Saph

[NullAshton]

"If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space."

That could probably be used for the defender being pushed into an occupied square. Thus, the defender would fall prone in an occupied square.

[cupkeyk]

The way we play it, is that two people forced into the same square are effectively grappling and suffer all the benefits and penalties (No dex to AC, w00t) of grappling.

[daggaz]

Null Ashton's response is the most logical and clear use of already printed rules, and the one my DM always uses. The only time we stray from that is if there is a clear size difference between the two monsters, at which point the smaller one is the one that gets knocked prone.

[ken-do-nim]

"If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space."

That could probably be used for the defender being pushed into an occupied square. Thus, the defender would fall prone in an occupied square.

So this means, correct me if I'm wrong, that a monk with Inexorable Progress of Dawn who connects with their first 2 flurry hits can automatically cause their foe to fall prone if the space behind them is occupied or a wall. That ... that's good.

Follow-up question: if a monk is hasted, does that "first 2 flurry hits" become "first 2 out of 3 flurry hits"?

[TheElfLord]

Personally I think bull rushing someone into a wall should deal some damage of some sort. I would suggest that the amount of space you can push someone back involes a wall, the pusher does damage equal to an unarmed strike to the pushed.

[AoiRorentsu]

of course, you could always just push them over a cliff....

Speaking of unarmed damage, I would tend to think that, assuming you're being thrown into a wall that isn't too far way, damage taken from hitting a wall or other solid, non-giving surface or object should be similar to falling rules- ie, 1d6 damage for every 10 feet thrown, and maybe 1d4 subdual if it's just 5 feet.

[AtomicKitKat]

So this means, correct me if I'm wrong, that a monk with Inexorable Progress of Dawn who connects with their first 2 flurry hits can automatically cause their foe to fall prone if the space behind them is occupied or a wall. That ... that's good.

Follow-up question: if a monk is hasted, does that "first 2 flurry hits" become "first 2 out of 3 flurry hits"?

If you wish to prevent abuse, "Flurry hits" refers simply to the first 2 full BAB attacks that you hit with in the full attack. And only if you're high enough level that your FoB grants 2 bonus attacks(11+ in Monk, or some combination of Monk and another class that progresses Flurry adding to an effective 11th level of Monk for purposes of Flurry)

[ken-do-nim]

Personally I think bull rushing someone into a wall should deal some damage of some sort. I would suggest that the amount of space you can push someone back involes a wall, the pusher does damage equal to an unarmed strike to the pushed.

This makes Inexorable Progress of Dawn even more lethal. If your monk has somebody up against a wall and hits the first two times, they would essentially get a third hit for free.

[MrNexx]

of course, you could always just push them over a cliff...

Assuming you can make a cliff magically appear behind them, yes.

[Fhaolan]

Assuming you can make a cliff magically appear behind them, yes.

That's worth a spell: 'Aio's Instant Cliff' :)

[Melrob]

We've specially ruled the sharing of one 5' space to be possible however at great penalty to attacks, reflex saves etc. It just makes more sense that way. This means you can be bullrushed into another's square...if the bullrush continues - the original target gets an assist bonus from the secondary target and if he is still overcome: they both get moved. Large things should be able to shove smaller things around and into each other. It happens on the playground and should certainly happen in the battlefield. =P

[NullAshton]

"Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer."

From the SRD, again... implying that being pushed into a filled square would instead land you in the nearest legal square. Hmmm. That's the closest to bull rushing an opponent into an illegal square that I can see...

[Golthur]

Yes, core rules explicitly prohibit two figures from staying in the same square aside from grappling. Otherwise, you have to stop moving at the last (or closest, as appropriate) legal square you could be in.

I just implement close-quarters fighting and the problem takes care of itself, plus it keeps daggers *very* relevant.

EDIT: So, yeah, I'd say, RAW, if you bull-rushed an opponent into an occupied square, you'd get something like this:

Original setup:
{table]..|1|..
..|2|..
..|R|..
[/table]

Where R = "rusher", 1 and 2 are victims.

You'd end up with this after the bull rush.

{table]2|1|..
..|R|..
..|..|..
[/table]

Or, other side, randomly.

[ken-do-nim]

On the other hand, there's the overrun rules. You can be in somebody else's square if they are knocked prone. There's also this interesting situation:

Player: Okay, I use overrun to enter my foe's square.
DM: Your foe decides to step aside, allowing you to pass through his square.
Player: I think I'll stop right here.

In the past I've ruled that they are now in the same square, but both are squeezed.