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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    qazzquimby's Avatar

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    Default The Din Child - T3 Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    The Din Child

    Spoiler: Image
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    Rather than devoting their time to discipline and technique, a Din Child trains and magically enhances himself to put as much raw power behind each blow as possible, and uses this strength to power through situations that would normally require delicate hands.

    Some framework and aspects politely ripped from NeoSeraphi's Brawler.

    HD: d10
    Class Skills: The Din Child has Balance, Climb, Craft, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Jump, Profession, Spellcraft, Swim, and Tumble, as well as two additional skills chosen at first level, as class skills.

    Skill Points: 4+Int per level

    The Din Child
    Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special Maneuvers Known Maneuvers Readied Stances Known
    1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Maneuvers, Unarmed Combat (1d10), Enhanced Strength, Might 3 3 1
    2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Aspect of Din 4 3 1
    3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Magic Hands (+1) 5 3 1
    4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Aspect of Din 5 4 2
    5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Unarmed Combat (2d10) 6 4 2
    6th +6 +5 +2 +2 Aspect of Din 6 4 2
    7th +7 +5 +2 +2 Magic Hands (+2) 7 4 2
    8th +8 +6 +2 +2 Aspect of Din 7 4 2
    9th +9 +6 +3 +3 Extreme Ability 8 4 2
    10th +10 +7 +3 +3 Aspect of Din, Unarmed Combat (3d10) 8 5 3
    11th +11 +7 +3 +3 Magic Hands (+3) 9 5 3
    12th +12 +8 +4 +4 Aspect of Din 9 5 3
    13th +13 +8 +4 +4 Extreme Ability 10 5 3
    14th +14 +9 +4 +4 Aspect of Din 10 5 3
    15th +15 +9 +5 +5 Unarmed Combat (4d10), Magic Hands (+4) 11 6 3
    16th +16 +10 +5 +5 Aspect of Din 11 6 4
    17th +17 +10 +5 +5 Extreme Ability 12 6 4
    18th +18 +11 +6 +6 Aspect of Din 12 6 4
    19th +19 +11 +6 +6 Magic Hands (+5) 13 6 4
    20th +20 +12 +6 +6 Aspect of Din, Unarmed Combat (5d10), Neck Ripping Enthusiasm 13 7 4

    Class Features

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Din Child gains proficiency with unarmed strikes as well as light and medium armor.

    Maneuvers: A Din Child learns maneuver from three of the Smoldering Brimstone, Bloody Hammer (with all mention of hammers replaced with unarmed strikes), Stone Dragon, Setting Sun, and Falling Mountain disciplines. For all disciplines, any mention of a weapon attack is replaced by an unarmed strike. His Iniator level is equal to his Din Child level, and he can learn maneuvers of a level no higher than half (IL+1).

    A Din Child is fueled by his own carnage, and recovers his maneuvers by expending might points (see below). He can recover all maneuvers with 5 minutes rest, as normal.
    At 4th level, and every even-numbered level afterwards, the Din Child can swap one of his older maneuvers with a new one he qualifies for from one of his two schools. The new maneuver does not need to be of the same level of the older one.

    Enhanced Strength: The Din Child's power comes from both training and magical enhancement, and is therefor partially but not entirely nullified by anti-magic. All abilities are considered extraordinary, but the Child of Din halves benefits (where practical) when magic would be canceled.

    Unarmed Combat: The Din Child gains the improved unarmed strike feat. His base damage with unarmed strikes is 1d10+Str, which increases to 2d10 at level 5, 3d10 at level 10, and so on, as noted on the class table. The Din Child gains the Power Attack feat.

    Might: The Din Child can enter a rhythm of uninterrupted destruction as wrecks his opposition. After bringing a creature to half health, the Din Child gains one might point per hit die of the creature. After killing a creature, the Din Child gains two might points per hit die of the creature. This pool has no maximum cap, but on any round that the Din Child does not add any might points, the might pool is decreased by half. As a free action, the Din Child may expend 1*HD might points to recover a single expended maneuver.

    Aspect of Din: At every even level you may choose an ability from the following list. Unless otherwise stated, the save DC for any ability that requires a saving throw is: 10 + 1/2 Din Child class levels + the Din Child's Strength modifier.
    Spoiler: Aspects of Din
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    Might costs not well tested, may need to be tweaked.
    Blitz:As an immediate action made during your turn the Din Child may spend 1*HD might points to move 5' in any direction, as long as he makes an attack immediately after the movement. By multiplying the might point cost he may multiply the allowed movement, using additive multiplication as normal. By paying 6*HD might points he may move upwards 5ft, which can be multiplied the same way and can be done in the same action as other blitz movement.

    Crushing Choke: The Din Child gains the Snatch ability, ignoring the prerequisites. He may snatch creatures of his size or smaller, and can throw them the normal distance or 5ft per class level, whichever is larger.

    Damage Destruction: Once per round, when the Din Child negates damage with damage reduction, the Din Child may force the attacking creature to make a Reflex save, or be knocked back 5ft +5ft per 5 damage negated after the attack.

    Dead Man's Volley: While the Din Child is not flat-footed, if he would be hit by any ranged attack that is not a touch attack (including spells), he may pay 1/2*HD might points to deflect it, or 1*HD to reflect it as a ranged attack.

    Death Ignoring Determination: While the Din Child is under 0 health, he ignores the dying or dead conditions so long as he expends (0-hp)*HD/3 every round.

    Devastating Blow: The Din Child gains the Improved Critical feat for unarmed strikes. When using a martial strike or adding at least a +5 damage bonus with Power Attack, the Din Child ignore critical hit immunity against creatures lacking vulnerable anatomy.

    Earshatter: As a standard action the Din Child may produce a deafening roar, which requires everyone within a 15ft cone to make a Fortitude save, or take unarmed strike sonic damage. The cone can be increased by 5ft for every 2*HD might points expended. If used while grappling, the effect is canceled, but the grappled creature must make a fort save or be deafened for 1 minute.

    Earth Crushing Stomp:You may use the Stomp power at will, and may increase the radius by 5ft by paying 3*HD might points.

    Forced Misdirection: Once per round, when the Din Child is attacked, if there is another creature within 5ft of the Din child and within 10ft of the attacker (hereby known as the shielding creature), the Din Child can attempt to use them to block the attack. If he does, the shielding creature must make a reflex save with a -5 penalty, or the attack is redirected to the it. If the shielding creature makes the save, the Din Child loses his Dex bonus to AC for the attack.

    Get Angry: As a move action and expenditure of 2*HD might points, the Din Child can initiate a rage, as the Barbarian ability. This rage lasts as long as the Din Child expends 1*HD might points per round. The Din Child suffers no ill effects when the rage ends. By multiplying initial and maintenance might point expenditures, the Din Child may multiply the effects of the rage by the same amount, up to 3 times, using additive multiplication as is normal.

    Incredible Force: The Din Child gains the Improved Bull Rush feat. When the Din Child bulrushes a creature and does not move with the creature, it is pushed back 5ft per class level instead of the normal distance.

    Life From Death: Immediately after the Din Child's might point total reaches 2*HD, or increases beyond that, he may spend 1*HD might points to recover 1/4 of his maximum health, rounding down. If this would bring the Din Child above maximum health, the extra healing is added as temporary health.

    Metal Form: The Din Child gains proficiency with heavy armor and gains a free set of mundane armor costing 1,500gp or less. The Din Child adds his Con mod to his AC while unarmored and unencumbered. The Din Child gains the Armor Specialization feat for an armor type of his choice.

    Mind Breaking Strength: the Din Child gains the Natural Bully and Resounding Blow (with his unarmed strikes qualifying as a weapon) feats. Whenever the Din Child would cause a creature to gain a fear condition, he may force them to make a will save against the same DC-10 or take the next most severe fear condition (shaken -> frightened -> panicked -> cowering) for the same duration.

    Mountain Hopping Leap: The Din Child gains the Leap Attack feat, can jump 30ft (high or long) as a move action, and avoids fall damage whenever making a voluntary movement. By spending a full round action, the Din Child can jump 30ft + 10ft/level (again, high or long). This jump is made at extreme speeds, and the Din Child always lands at the end of the turn they initiated the jump.

    Punishing Blow: Whenever the Din Child uses a successful counter maneuver, he may immediately make a grapple attempt if he has Crushing Choke, a bull rush attempt if he has Incredible Force, or a sunder attempt if he has Wall Crushing.

    Scorched Earth:When you make an attack that deals hellfire damage, you may choose to light the ground of a 5ft space instead of targeting a creature. If you do, any creature within the targeted space is allowed a reflex save to move 5ft. The fire continues as long as the Din Child expends 1/2*HD might points per round to maintain it. On the round the fire is made, it deals damage equal to the attack that created it to every creature in its space. For every subsequent round, the fire deals only half this damage.

    Shield of Meat: In addition, when the Din Child pins a creature, the creature remains pinned until it succeeds in a an opposed grapple check against the Din Child to escape. While pinning a creature, the Din Child may act as if he is not grappling, though using one hand to hold the creature as a shield. The Din Child gains a +4 shield bonus to AC, and any missed attack made against the Din Child while he has his Dex bonus to AC hits the pinned creature instead.

    Stunning Punch: Once per round, the Din Child can take a -5 penalty to an attack with an unarmed strike. If he hits, he may force the target to make a Fortitude save or be Stunned for 1 round. Stunning Punch does not qualify for, nor can power Stunning Fist feats or prestige class abilities. If the creature is stunned again while stunned by this effect, it must make another Fortitude save at the same DC or be paralyzed for 2 rounds.

    Sudden Reversal: The Din Child gains the Improved Disarm feat. Immediately after taking a creature's weapon, the Din Child may make an attack on the creature with the taken weapon.

    Tactical Control: As a move action, the Din Child can conjure a floating ball of energy in an unoccupied space around him. These orbs last for 1+1/3levels. He can move any number of them 5ft as a swift action, but they can never attempt to enter an occupied space. If a creature enters an orbís space, the creature takes damage equal to the base damage of your unarmed strike, and is pushed (10ft + any remaining knock back distance the creature would move) in the opposite direction it entered. If an orb makes two attacks in a single round it explodes, dealing triple damage and triple knock-back within a 10ft blast radius.

    Their Feet Leave the Ground: By spending a swift action to build energy, for the rest of the round, any attack the Din Child makes knocks the creature back 5ft per 5 points of damage dealt. During this round, if the Din Child uses a maneuver that would move a creature, the maneuver can move them up to 1.5x the normal distance.

    Throw Everything: The Din Child gains the Throw Anything, Brutal Throw, and Power Throw feats. He may throw any object he could lift as a light load as a medium creature (making no adjustment to carrying capacity based upon size). Use the rules in chapter 4 of CW to calculate damage.

    To the Earth: The Din Child gains the Improved Trip feat. As a move action, the Din Child can attempt a trip attempt as a ranged touch attack, within 120ft. If the trip attack succeeds against a flying creature, the creature immediately falls.

    Unstoppable Charge: The Din Child gains the Improved Overrun feat. If he is making a charge, The Din Child can overrun any number of creatures during his movement.

    Wall Crushing: The Din Child gains Improved Sunder. When making an attack that ignores hardness or damage resistance, the attack ignores both. When making such an attack and targeting one continuous material, such as a wall or a mountain, his attack targets all of the material within a 5ft radius per 5 damage dealt.

    Warlock Punch: As a full round action, the Din Child can begin an attack that initiates at the beginning of his next turn. The attack targets a square rather than a creature, and will target any single creature in that square when it is activated. This action provokes AoOs and is cancelled if he takes more than his HD in damage. The attack deals 3d10/HD damage. If he delays the attack an additional round, he can apply the benefits of Devastating Punch, if he has unlocked it.


    Magic Hands: At level 3 the Din Child gains a +1 enhancement bonus to their unarmed attacks, and their attacks are considered magic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. This enhancement bonus increases by 1 every 4 levels, as noted on the class table.

    Extreme Ability: At level 9 and e very 4 levels after, the Din Child can subtract 2 from an ability score, add 2 to another, and gain a bonus feat.

    Neck Ripping Enthusiasm: The Din Child gains the Vorpal Strike feat.



    Spoiler: Mightless version of class features, less resource management
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    Class Features

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Din Child gains proficiency with unarmed strikes as well as light and medium armor.

    Maneuvers: A Din Child learns maneuver from three of the Smoldering Brimstone, Bloody Hammer (with all mention of hammers replaced with unarmed strikes), Stone Dragon, Setting Sun, and Falling Mountain disciplines. For all disciplines, any mention of a weapon attack is replaced by an unarmed strike. His Iniator level is equal to his Din Child level, and he can learn maneuvers of a level no higher than half (IL+1).

    A Din Child is fueled by his own carnage, and recovers his maneuvers by slaughtering his foes. Whenever the Din Child brings a creature to half health, he may recover one expended maneuver, and whenever he kills a creature he recovers two expended maneuvers. He can recover all maneuvers with 5 minutes rest, as normal.
    At 4th level, and every even-numbered level afterwards, the Din Child can swap one of his older maneuvers with a new one he qualifies for from one of his two schools. The new maneuver does not need to be of the same level of the older one.

    Enhanced Strength: The Din Child's power comes from both training and magical enhancement, and is therefor partially but not entirely nullified by anti-magic. All abilities are considered extraordinary, but the Child of Din halves benefits (where practical) when magic would be canceled.

    Unarmed Combat: The Din Child gains the improved unarmed strike feat. His base damage with unarmed strikes is 1d10+Str, which increases to 2d10 at level 5, 3d10 at level 10, and so on, as noted on the class table. The Din Child gains the Power Attack feat.

    Aspect of Din: At every even level you may choose an ability from the following list. Unless otherwise stated, the save DC for any ability that requires a saving throw is: 10 + 1/2 Din Child class levels + the Din Child's Strength modifier.
    Spoiler: Aspects of Din
    Show
    Blitz:Once per encounter, the Din Child may move up to 20ft as an immediate action made during his turn, as long as he makes an attack immediately after the movement. By spending 10ft of this movement, the Din Child may move upwards 5ft.

    Crushing Choke: The Din Child gains the Snatch ability, ignoring the prerequisites. He may snatch creatures of his size or smaller, and can throw them the normal distance or 5ft per class level, whichever is larger.

    Damage Destruction/-: Once per round, when the Din Child negates damage with damage reduction, the Din Child may force the attacking creature to make a Reflex save, or be knocked back 5ft +5ft per 5 damage negated after the attack.

    Death Ignoring Determination: While the Din Child is under 0 health, he ignores the dying or dead conditions for up to three rounds, so long as he continues fight for the duration.

    Devastating Blow: The Din Child gains the Improved Critical feat for unarmed strikes. When using a martial strike or adding at least a +5 damage bonus with Power Attack, the Din Child ignore critical hit immunity against creatures lacking vulnerable anatomy.

    Earshatter: As a standard action the Din Child may produce a deafening roar, which requires everyone within a 20ft cone to make a Fortitude save, or take unarmed strike sonic damage. If used while grappling, the effect is canceled, but the grappled creature must make a fort save or be deafened for 1 minute.

    Earth Crushing Stomp:You may use the Stomp power at will, with the radius increased by 5ft.

    Forced Misdirection: Once per round, when the Din Child is attacked, if there is another creature within 5ft of the Din child and within 10ft of the attacker (hereby known as the shielding creature), the Din Child can attempt to use them to block the attack. If he does, the shielding creature must make a reflex save with a -5 penalty, or the attack is redirected to the it. If the shielding creature makes the save, the Din Child loses his Dex bonus to AC for the attack.

    Get Angry: As a move action, the Din Child can initiate a rage as the Barbarian ability. This rage lasts for six rounds, and The Din Child suffers no ill effects when the rage ends. By spending two additional rounds of rage, the Din Child can double the benefits of rage for one round.

    Incredible Force: The Din Child gains the Improved Bull Rush feat. When the Din Child bulrushes a creature and does not move with the creature, it is pushed back 5ft per class level instead of the normal distance.

    Life From Death: After killing at least half your HD in creatures in one round, you may recover up to 1/4 your total health. If this would bring the Din Child above maximum health, the extra healing is added as temporary health.

    Metal Form: The Din Child gains proficiency with heavy armor and gains a free set of mundane armor costing 1,500gp or less. The Din Child adds his Con mod to his AC while unarmored and unencumbered. The Din Child gains the Armor Specialization feat for an armor type of his choice.

    Mind Breaking Strength: the Din Child gains the Natural Bully and Resounding Blow (with his unarmed strikes qualifying as a weapon) feats. Whenever the Din Child would cause a creature to gain a fear condition, he may force them to make a will save against the same DC-10 or take the next most severe fear condition (shaken -> frightened -> panicked -> cowering) for the same duration.

    Mountain Hopping Leap: The Din Child gains the Leap Attack feat, can jump 30ft (high or long) as a move action, and avoids fall damage whenever making a voluntary movement. By spending a full round action, the Din Child can jump 30ft + 10ft/level (again, high or long). This jump is made at extreme speeds, and the Din Child always lands at the end of the turn they initiated the jump.

    Punishing Blow: Whenever the Din Child uses a successful counter maneuver, he may immediately make a grapple attempt if he has Crushing Choke, a bull rush attempt if he has Incredible Force, or a sunder attempt if he has Wall Crushing.

    Scorched Earth:When you make an attack that deals hellfire damage, you may choose to light the ground of a 5ft space instead of targeting a creature. If you do, any creature within the targeted space is allowed a reflex save to move 5ft. The fire lasts three rounds. On the round the fire is made, it deals damage equal to the attack that created it to every creature in its space. For every subsequent round, the fire deals only half this damage.

    Shield of Meat: In addition, when the Din Child pins a creature, the creature remains pinned until it succeeds in a an opposed grapple check against the Din Child to escape. While pinning a creature, the Din Child may act as if he is not grappling, though using one hand to hold the creature as a shield. The Din Child gains a +4 shield bonus to AC, and any missed attack made against the Din Child while he has his Dex bonus to AC hits the pinned creature instead.

    Stunning Punch: Once per round, the Din Child can take a -5 penalty to an attack with an unarmed strike. If he hits, he may force the target to make a Fortitude save or be Stunned for 1 round. Stunning Punch does not qualify for, nor can power Stunning Fist feats or prestige class abilities. If the creature is stunned again while stunned by this effect, it must make another Fortitude save at the same DC or be paralyzed for 2 rounds.

    Sudden Reversal: The Din Child gains the Improved Disarm feat. Immediately after taking a creature's weapon, the Din Child may make an attack on the creature with the taken weapon.

    Tactical Control: As a move action, the Din Child can conjure a floating ball of energy in an unoccupied space around him. These orbs last for 1+1/3levels. He can move any number of them 5ft as a swift action, but they can never attempt to enter an occupied space. If a creature enters an orbís space, the creature takes damage equal to the base damage of your unarmed strike, and is pushed (10ft + any remaining knock back distance the creature would move) in the opposite direction it entered. If an orb makes two attacks in a single round it explodes, dealing triple damage and triple knock-back within a 10ft blast radius.

    Their Feet Leave the Ground: By spending a swift action to build energy, for the rest of the round, any attack the Din Child makes knocks the creature back 5ft per 5 points of damage dealt. During this round, if the Din Child uses a maneuver that would move a creature, the maneuver can move them up to 1.5x the normal distance.

    Throw Everything: The Din Child gains the Throw Anything, Brutal Throw, and Power Throw feats. He may throw any object he could lift as a light load as a medium creature (making no adjustment to carrying capacity based upon size). Use the rules in chapter 4 of CW to calculate damage.

    To the Earth: The Din Child gains the Improved Trip feat. As a move action, the Din Child can attempt a trip attempt as a ranged touch attack, within 120ft. If the trip attack succeeds against a flying creature, the creature immediately falls.

    Unstoppable Charge: The Din Child gains the Improved Overrun feat. If he is making a charge, The Din Child can overrun any number of creatures during his movement.

    Wall Crushing: The Din Child gains Improved Sunder. When making an attack that ignores hardness or damage resistance, the attack ignores both. When making such an attack and targeting one continuous material, such as a wall or a mountain, his attack targets all of the material within a 5ft radius per 5 damage dealt.

    Warlock Punch: As a full round action, the Din Child can begin an attack that initiates at the beginning of his next turn. The attack targets a square rather than a creature, and will target any single creature in that square when it is activated. This action provokes AoOs and is cancelled if he takes more than his HD in damage. The attack deals damage equal to 5 successful unarmed attacks. If he delays the attack an additional round, he can apply the benefits of Devastating Punch, if he has unlocked it.


    Magic Hands: At level 3 the Din Child gains a +1 enhancement bonus to their unarmed attacks, and their attacks are considered magic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. This enhancement bonus increases by 1 every 4 levels, as noted on the class table.

    Extreme Ability: At level 9 and every 4 levels after, the Din Child can subtract 2 from an ability score, add 2 to another, and gain a bonus feat.

    Neck Ripping Enthusiasm: The Din Child gains the Vorpal Strike feat.
    Last edited by qazzquimby; 2014-12-14 at 03:43 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The Din Child - T2ish Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    You need to include the martial maneuvers and stances known and martial maneuvers readied for the class. Without that information, it's difficult to judge the power level of the class.

    I would recommend 4 skill points per level. I think members of this class will need at least that much to be successful, since they're incentivized to use Intelligence as a dump stat.

    I like the brutal flavor of the martial disciplines you selected; they're a good fit for the style you're aiming for. I'm surprised you didn't include Stone Dragon as well. I'd recommend granting access to all three of your listed disciplines, rather than only two, and provide access to Stone Dragon besides. More options are (almost) always good, and Stone Dragon is not especially powerful so it's not going to unbalance anything.

    The recovery mechanic is excessive. With his focus on dealing overwhelming single-target damage, a Din Child could easily refresh all of his maneuvers almost every round in many combats by mopping up weak and injured opponents. The player should have to manage his maneuvers and deal with scarcity; instead he's getting them back faster than he can possibly spend them. I'd suggest just keeping the benefit for bloodying an opponent and removing the benefit for killing one. That's actually pretty thematic; you get charged up by seeing that you've got your opponent on the ropes, and you're no longer encouraged to run around picking on the little guys or kill-stealing from the other PCs.

    Regarding the Aspect of Din ability, the table grants it at 2nd level and every two levels thereafter, but the ability description grants it at 3rd level and every four levels thereafter. Which did you intend? If you're granting ten total selections from Aspect of Din, I'd suggest you add more options (20 total would be nice, but 15 should be a minimum).
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The Din Child - T2ish Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    I disagree with removing the kill refresh, but I would also stipulate that it be moved to its own ability somewhere down the line (maybe an Aspect that can be chosen multiple times for more uses?) as a per encounter or per day resource. I also second expanding their maneuver options unless they have an extremely limited number of maneuvers, and even then the expansion probably isn't out of place.

    If Aspect of Din is every even level, I'd suggest adding a bonus fighter feat or bonus maneuver known option or some such.
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Din Child - T2ish Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    Kill refresh does need to be changed, currently it's bag-o-rats problem. That being said it may be fitting to tie small animals to your arms and legs for unarmed strike/armor trigger refresh.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The Din Child - T2ish Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanuman View Post
    Kill refresh does need to be changed, currently it's bag-o-rats problem.
    One solution I have seen is to limit the refresh, to creatures that have at least some fraction of your levels in Hit Dice (e.g. so if this fraction is 1/2, then a level 10 character would need to injure/kill a 5 HD creature to use kill refresh). But then in a battlefield-like condition with huge numbers of weak enemies, he may run out of maneuvers.

    Another possible solution is to go for a point pool system. Initiating maneuvers costs points based on the level of the maneuver. Injuring/killing a creature adds points based on its HD to the pool. This way, killing 10 level 1 soldiers, and killing a level 10 general give you about the same amount of points.

    Also, an alternative to basing it on HD, would be to base it on CR.
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  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The Din Child - T2ish Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    Thanks for the feedback everyone. I've added the maneuvers known and readied (no idea how I forgot that), added the suggested discipline, and increased it to the core, plus 2 of the three optional disciplines.

    How about, you recover one maneuver when you bloody and two when you kill, and in both cases the creature must be 1/2 your HD or higher?

    Aspects were changed to 1/2 levels, thanks for catching that. Does anyone have ideas for aspects?

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The Din Child - T2ish Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    After then, why not just give it the Devoted Spirit treatment, in terms of which creatures are counted?

    Alternatively, recover all maneuvers after every time your kill count exceeds or equals your HD.

    Or, you can limit the valid creatures as to those whose HD must be at least X HD lower from the Din Child's.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Din Child - T2ish Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    The main issue I see is that rewarding kills on high HD creatures is kind of a "i'm too high and mighty to crush weaklings".

    One idea is to have a pool that charges as you kill enemies and can be expended to refresh all your maneuvers.

    That way a lot of small enemies over even a long period of time could still count, and you could use the pool for other things perhaps. You could use my Groove combo system for sort of a momentum playstyle.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The Din Child - T2ish Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    New might mechanic, building quickly while you rampage, falling quickly once the carnage ends. Spend might to regain maneuvers or fuel abilities.
    The maneuvers known and readied were toned down to be on par with warblade (thanks to Hanuman)

    Moved power attack to the unarmed combat class feature.

    Added Blitz aspect.
    Added Combo Finisher aspect.
    Added Earshatter aspect.
    Added Earth Crushing Stomp aspect.
    Added Fuller Attack aspect.
    Added Get Angry aspect.
    Added Mountain Hopping Leap aspect.
    Added Throw Everything aspect.

    New total: 21

    Anyone have ideas?
    Last edited by qazzquimby; 2014-06-04 at 11:44 PM.

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    Default Re: The Din Child - T2ish Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    All Aspects of Din needs to state the save DC for effects that allow a save. Right now, only Stunning Punch explicitly mentions it, but it is needed for other abilities like Earth Crushing Stomp. It is probably a good idea to add the following to the top text for Aspects of Din:

    Unless otherwise stated, the save DC for any ability that requires a saving throw is: 10 + 1/2 Din Child class levels + the Din Child's Strength modifier.
    In general, when refering to some external resource, it would be a good idea to add a link (if its in the SRD or available for free on Wizard's website), or to state the source (for splat books). For example:

    Earth Crushing Stomp: You may use the Stomp power at will, and may increase the radius by 5ft by paying 10 might points.
    and

    Throw Everything: The Din Child gains the Throw Anything (Complete Warrior), Brutal Throw (Complete Adventurer), and Power Throw (Complete Adventurer) feats. He may throw any object he could lift as a light load as a medium creature (making no adjustment to carrying capacity based upon size). Use the rules in chapter 4 of Complete Warrior to calculate damage.
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    Default Re: The Din Child - T2ish Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    Thank you very much, I clearly can't proofread my own work. There is now a smorgasbord of links within the aspect spoiler.

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    Default Re: The Din Child - T2ish Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    You don't have a tier 2 class here. What you do have is a combat focused tier 3 with borked damage numbers and stats.
    1.Combo Finisher first off actually doesn't need any combo or situation to work and is an insane way to rack up damage. Hammer Fist allows unarmed strikes to act as two-handed weapons so long as it isn't a Flurry of blow or one of your hands isn't occupied meaning with Leap Attack it multiply's Power Attacks return at x12. This along with Devastating Blow all but ensures an instant kill because critical threats even when the attack roll fails always hit. Yes, it is a full-round action but there are some rather easy means to get decent movement with full attacks and those disciplines have them.
    2. There is also the issue with Towering Above it says it gains one size category, according to the rules of permanently increasing in size they get +8 str, +4 con, and -2 dex for each size category.
    3. Metal Form simply doesn't make sense. Is this suppose to something like Iron Body or is it just an odd easy use of armor ability which makes heavy armor even more irrelevant?
    4. Finally, Earshatter isn't worth it. A 10 foot cone is really small(it is basically a 3 block L shape from you) and the damage as well as the effect are minor for the cost especially when you can make Devastating Blows at longer range and to the same number of creatures in the same time.
    Last edited by Amnoriath; 2014-06-05 at 06:31 PM.

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    Default Re: The Din Child - T2ish Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    You don't have a tier 2 class here. What you do have is a combat focused tier 3 with borked damage numbers
    I believe a class that does one thing better than a Tier 3 with that focus is considered a Tier 2, hence why the teramach is Tier 2. If that's wrong I'll rename it to overpowered T3. The numbers are indeed borked since it is meant to be playing with sorcerers and mythos classes.

    In the interest of toning it down into T3, how much would reducing unarmed strike damage to a D6 do?

    Combo Finisher first off actually doesn't need any combo or situation to work and is an insane way to rack up damage.
    Combo finisher was written horribly wrong, and I'm glad you brought that to my attention. It was supposed to double your strength bonus to a single damage roll, not multiply your score into the stratosphere. I'm still unsure how powerful many of the might abilities are, because the number of might points you're getting varies so much as you gain levels.

    I think the costs are much too low right now, but no matter what they seem to be too high at low levels and too low at high levels. At the current 5 points a level 15 killing a 15HD creature can add add 9x his strength score to one attack. Bork bork. However if the cost is increased to 15 points, for example, a low level Din Child simply cannot use the ability, without killing something end gamey.

    If anyone has suggestions, I'd love to have this fixed.

    Combo finisher supposedly requires a combo situation in order to maximize the might points you can spend, but as pointed out, the system is not working right now.

    Hammer Fist allows unarmed strikes to act as two-handed weapons so long as it isn't a Flurry of blow or one of your hands isn't occupied, meaning with Leap Attack it multiply's Power Attacks return at x12.
    Leap attack and Hammer fist (PA*3) + Combo Finisher (PA*2) =, with additive multiplication, PA*4 returns. What am I missing?

    This along with Devastating Blow all but ensures an instant kill because critical threats even when the attack roll fails always hit.
    Devastating blow isn't compatible with leaping attack, unless I'm mistaken, since you can't leap as part of a full action. If you reread Devastating Blow, the attack is only considered a critical threat if the attack roll hits, so there is no retroactive perfect accuracy.

    Yes, it is a full-round action but there are some rather easy means to get decent movement with full attacks and those disciplines have them.
    And blitz lets you make spend might points to move without expending an action as well. Might point costs need to be serious but attainable.


    2. There is also the issue with Towering Above it says it gains one size category, according to the rules of permanently increasing in size they get +8 str, +4 con, and -2 dex for each size category.
    You're completely right. I thought I'd found a source saying +4 str and con, but I can't find it again, and even that is too much. Should I make it only a virtual size difference for making bull rush attempts and such? It seems to be a straight up buff, which is boring. I might cut it. Any suggestions?

    3. Metal Form simply doesn't make sense. Is this suppose to something like Iron Body or is it just an odd easy use of armor ability which makes heavy armor even more irrelevant?
    It was just supposed to make him good with heavy armor, burning an ability to avoid most of the drawbacks. I shall change it to not remove the drawbacks, but worry it will appear underwhelming. Free set of armor added. I also changed all of the Canadian spellings.

    4. Finally, Earshatter isn't worth it. A 10 foot cone is really small(it is basically a 3 block L shape from you) and the damage as well as the effect are minor for the cost especially when you can make Devastating Blows at longer range and to the same number of creatures in the same time.
    Thanks, I'll up it to 15. I've no idea how you'd make devastating blows at range to multiple creatures when its a melee attack that takes a full round action.

    Thanks for all your feedback, you saw a number of things I hadn't.
    Last edited by qazzquimby; 2014-06-05 at 06:58 PM.

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    Default Re: The Din Child - T2ish Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    I have to agree, teramach is tier2 because it works on conceptual levels that pathfinder would reserve for mythic characters, its numbers aren't that bad.

    Being able to toss someone around like a ragdoll, thats conceptually powerful, being able to deal 3-4 digits of damage, that's an error.

    Blitz has a contextual requirement, so that should be stated at the beginning of the description.

    How I'd rewrite:

    Blitz: The Din Child's murderous intent is enough to propel it towards a creature with the intent of striking it that round. During the Din Child's turn as an immediate action he may expend 3MP to move 5' in any direction.

    Combo finisher should work on bloodied opponents only and the damage needs to be toned down. You could expend all your might points and raise your strength relative to the expend.

    Ear Shatter should have a special effect for creatures you are grappling https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1onlLXUe5s

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    Default Re: The Din Child - T2ish Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    Being able to toss someone around like a ragdoll, thats conceptually powerful, being able to deal 3-4 digits of damage, that's an error.
    Other than issues in the might point system, how are you accomplishing this?

    Blitz: The Din Child's murderous intent is enough to propel it towards a creature with the intent of striking it that round. During the Din Child's turn as an immediate action he may expend 3MP to move 5' in any direction.
    I think putting the requirement in the fluff sentence makes it look optional. The ability is a lot harder to use if there needs to be a creature within range of where you stop, and without saying that explicitly people can take extra movement easily.

    Combo finisher should work on bloodied opponents only and the damage needs to be toned down. You could expend all your might points and raise your strength relative to the expend.
    Is it less insane with the rewrite? I think fixing might points will solve this.

    Ear Shatter should have a special effect for creatures you are grappling https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1onlLXUe5s
    That was unexpected. Biting them or deafening them?

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    Default Re: The Din Child - T2ish Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    Quote Originally Posted by qazzquimby View Post
    I believe a class that does one thing better than a Tier 3 with that focus is considered a Tier 2, hence why the teramach is Tier 2. If that's wrong I'll rename it to overpowered T3. The numbers are indeed borked since it is meant to be playing with sorcerers and mythos classes.

    In the interest of toning it down into T3, how much would reducing unarmed strike damage to a D6 do?


    Combo finisher was written horribly wrong, and I'm glad you brought that to my attention. It was supposed to double your strength bonus to a single damage roll, not multiply your score into the stratosphere. I'm still unsure how powerful many of the might abilities are, because the number of might points you're getting varies so much as you gain levels.



    Leap attack and Hammer fist (PA*3) + Combo Finisher (PA*2) =, with additive multiplication, PA*4 returns. What am I missing?


    Devastating blow isn't compatible with leaping attack, unless I'm mistaken, since you can't leap as part of a full action. If you reread Devastating Blow, the attack is only considered a critical threat if the attack roll hits, so there is no retroactive perfect accuracy.



    You're completely right. I thought I'd found a source saying +4 str and con, but I can't find it again, and even that is too much. Should I make it only a virtual size difference for making bull rush attempts and such? It seems to be a straight up buff, which is boring. I might cut it. Any suggestions?


    It was just supposed to make him good with heavy armor, burning an ability to avoid most of the drawbacks. I shall change it to not remove the drawbacks, but worry it will appear underwhelming. Free set of armor added. I also changed all of the Canadian spellings.


    Thanks, I'll up it to 15. I've no idea how you'd make devastating blows at range to multiple creatures when its a melee attack that takes a full round action.

    Thanks for all your feedback, you saw a number of things I hadn't.
    1. No, while there are examples of great tier 2 melee characters that isn't the definition. If a Fighter had the ability to kill anything regardless of its immunities/conditions as well as auto-hit with each of its attack would that make it tier 2 or just a really overpowered tier 4? In order to attain tier 2 there needs to be 2 factors. One, the class in question must have single abilities that in relation to its challenge that resolve them automatically, outside of large numbers in which just about anyone can do or strings of abilities. Two, it must have a base potential number of those said abilities that at least just exceeds their character level.
    2. It needs to meet outside conditions of sorts like amount of successful attacks, AoO, loss of dexterity bonus..etc
    3. The fact that it is an untyped multiplier that distributively applies both to Strength and Power Attack. Leap Attack is one that strictly affects power so 6x2=12.
    4. Sudden Leap allows a full jump to be made as a swift action. Also anything that gives a move action as a swift action automatically means they can jump. Don't ask what could be done if Battle Jump is allowed.
    5. I would say make it a swift action Enlarge like ability with a certain level requirement.
    6. It does but it makes light armor way better. At most heavy armor gives you a base of 10, you only need 22 str. to beat it which should be child's play with this class.
    7. This class gets really big therefore your reach gets really long. Also the bloody hammer discipline gives an extra attack so long as it is full-round of attacks. Even if you don't rule it as such they will still deal way more damage than the Earshatter.

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    Default Re: The Din Child - OPT3 Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    1. No, while there are examples of great tier 2 melee characters that isn't the definition. If a Fighter had the ability to kill anything regardless of its immunities/conditions as well as auto-hit with each of its attack, would that make it tier 2 or just a really overpowered tier 4? In order to attain tier 2 there needs to be 2 factors. One, the class in question must have single abilities that in relation to its challenge that resolve them automatically, outside of large numbers in which just about anyone can do or strings of abilities. Two, it must have a base potential number of those said abilities that at least just exceeds their character level.
    Alright, I thought either method qualified. I know the class has its flaws, but I don't think it's as dull and straight forward as you're saying. The movement options, obstacle creation, and knockback for environment interaction are all things I haven't seen done much, and the Din Child can respond to a whole slew of threats. You can leap of chasms, pound your way through walls, knock over everyone in the room, bring flying enemies down to earth, or even throw your fellow party members over the wall and jump over after them. I'm not seeing it as tier 4, but I'll change it to high powered tier 3? OPT3.

    2. It needs to meet outside conditions of sorts like amount of successful attacks, AoO, loss of dexterity bonus..etc
    I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here. If "amount of successful attacks" refers to your accuracy using the exploit you mentioned, the hit is only a critical threat after it hits, and therefor can miss. I don't know what you're refering to with "AoO," as he interacts with them normally unless I've overlooked something. "Loss of dexterity bonus" I assume you mean removing the cap that comes with armor? The cap was reinstated after your last comment. It's likely I misunderstood the context of your statement.

    3. The fact that it is an untyped multiplier that distributively applies both to Strength and Power Attack. Leap Attack is one that strictly affects power so 6x2=12.
    Could this be fixed easily with a reword? "This increase in the benefit of power attack does not stack with any other increase"?

    4. Sudden Leap allows a full jump to be made as a swift action. Also anything that gives a move action as a swift action automatically means they can jump. Don't ask what could be done if Battle Jump is allowed.
    Sudden Leap is from the Tiger Claw discipline, which isn't supported by the discipline, but I see your point. Is it worth making a ban list of abilities the class cannot use? I'd rather count on DMs being reasonable.

    5. I would say make it a swift action Enlarge like ability with a certain level requirement.
    That's probably too similar to the rage ability, as a temporary sustained buff, to merit its own aspect. It is cut.

    6. It does but it makes light armor way better. At most heavy armor gives you a base of 10, you only need 22 str. to beat it which should be child's play with this class.
    Oh, I'd been following the common trend of adding x bonus to ac while light or less, so I didn't think that would be a problem. I could change it to Con, remove it entirely, or have it apply when wearing no armor. Any preference? I'm really not attached to it.

    7. This class gets really big therefore your reach gets really long. Also the bloody hammer discipline gives an extra attack so long as it is full-round of attacks. Even if you don't rule it as such they will still deal way more damage than the Earshatter.
    Does that still stand with size bonuses removed and the radius increased? And if so, what if it was reduced to a standard action?

    Thanks again for your help.
    Last edited by qazzquimby; 2014-06-05 at 09:52 PM.

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    Default Re: The Din Child - T2ish Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    Overall balance assessment:
    It's broken, and not in a good way. The class hits like a nuclear bomb but has no real defenses to speak of. However, you've got the flavor and style down well and the foundation is sound, so with a little work this could be made very groovy.

    How to fix:
    You're trying to make the Aspect of Din abilities carry the class -- but you don't need to. This is a martial adept. Let the maneuvers take center stage. Instead of upstaging or competing with the martial maneuvers, use your Aspect abilities to complement the maneuvers and make them work more effectively.
    • Be willing to take more than one hit to kill something. Right now the Child of Din is just drowning in ways to deal extra damage, and they all stack, multiply, and synergize.
    • Focus on Aspect abilities that do something other than grant bonus damage. The Aspects that grant/improve unusual feats like Crushing Choke, Earth Crushing Stomp, and Throw Everything are really brilliant! More Aspects that encourage rarely-seen tactics would be great.
    • Eliminate, rewrite or cap the runaway Aspects that can break encounters. Specifically I'm talking about Combo Finisher, Fuller Attack, Get Angry and Punishing Blow.
    • Remove or redesign the Aspect abilities that require a full-round action, since they compete with the Strike maneuvers.
    • You have a lot of Aspect abilities that focus on throws and wrestling moves. Consider adding the Setting Sun martial discipline and rewriting the Aspect abilities to augment Setting Sun maneuvers instead of functioning by themselves. For example, Their Feet Leave the Ground could apply to all Setting Sun maneuvers that apply involuntary movement to the opponent.
    • For Aspects that grant bonus damage, instead grant cool benefits when you hit with a maneuver that deals bonus damage. For example, maybe Combo Finisher could grant 5 Might when you kill an opponent with a martial strike. Devastating Blow could grant Improved Critical and bypass some types of critical hit immunity when you hit with a martial strike. Punishing Blow could grant a free knockdown or bull rush attempt when you hit with a counter from the Falling Mountain discipline.
    • Likewise, redesign any other features that duplicate maneuvers. For example, Wall Crushing could add the multiple-square benefit to Stone Dragon maneuvers that ignore hardness, instead of working by itself.
    • Add features that grant defensive benefits. You have terrible saves and very few maneuvers to help you defensively (most of which aren't available until upper levels).


    If you make these changes you'll also get a neat elegance to the class design. Your choice of martial discipline at character creation will inform your choice of Aspect, and your Aspects known will in turn push you toward selecting complementary martial maneuvers as you advance in level. The class features feed into one another.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2014-06-05 at 11:07 PM.
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    Default Re: The Din Child - OPT3 Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    Quote Originally Posted by qazzquimby View Post
    Alright, I thought either method qualified. I know the class has its flaws, but I don't think it's as dull and straight forward as you're saying. The movement options, obstacle creation, and knockback for environment interaction are all things I haven't seen done much, and the Din Child can respond to a whole slew of threats. You can leap of chasms, pound your way through walls, knock over everyone in the room, bring flying enemies down to earth, or even throw your fellow party members over the wall and jump over after them. I'm not seeing it as tier 4, but I'll change it to high powered tier 3? OPT3.


    I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here. If "amount of successful attacks" refers to your accuracy using the exploit you mentioned, the hit is only a critical threat after it hits, and therefor can miss. I don't know what you're refering to with "AoO," as he interacts with them normally unless I've overlooked something. "Loss of dexterity bonus" I assume you mean removing the cap that comes with armor? The cap was reinstated after your last comment. It's likely I misunderstood the context of your statement.


    Could this be fixed easily with a reword? "This increase in the benefit of power attack does not stack with any other increase"?


    Sudden Leap is from the Tiger Claw discipline, which isn't supported by the discipline, but I see your point. Is it worth making a ban list of abilities the class cannot use? I'd rather count on DMs being reasonable.


    Oh, I'd been following the common trend of adding x bonus to ac while light or less, so I didn't think that would be a problem. I could change it to Con, remove it entirely, or have it apply when wearing no armor. Any preference? I'm really not attached to it.


    Does that still stand with size bonuses removed and the radius increased? And if so, what if it was reduced to a standard action?

    Thanks again for your help.
    1. I was merely giving an example in how having one quite overtly powerful thing over another doesn't qualify in raising it a tier. I believe I said before that it was a combat focused tier 3 with borked damage numbers.
    2. I was making a list of conditions to meet that would make sense with the name Combo Finisher.
    3. Personally, I just wouldn't raise Power Attack as it already gets a lot of help. Remember anything that increases attack by definition increases its viability. It also sounds like something that multiple attacks should better benefit from which runs counter to Power Attack. I would almost make it like a rend.
    4. It is either a one level dip or a single feat. I would gladly sacrifice vorpal fists for 4-7 maneuvers.
    5. You are using Ganondorf I would think some shapeshifting forms could be warranted.
    6. Well, technically it is with any attack so getting large reach is very easy. Even as a standard action it is a rather minor effect. I think something with fear would be better and make it a 30 foot cone as a standard action.

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    Default Re: The Din Child - OPT3 Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    @Jiriku
    You're trying to make the Aspect of Din abilities carry the class -- but you don't need to. This is a martial adept. Let the maneuvers take center stage. Instead of upstaging or competing with the martial maneuvers, use your Aspect abilities to complement the maneuvers and make them work more effectively.
    I will if you advise, but I would rather the aspects were the core of the class with the maneuvers as compliment, mostly because the disciplines were already made and didn't really involve me. Focusing on maneuvers would certainly make things more sane though.

    Be willing to take more than one hit to kill something. Right now the Child of Din is just drowning in ways to deal extra damage, and they all stack, multiply, and synergize.
    Focus on Aspect abilities that do something other than grant bonus damage. The Aspects that grant/improve unusual feats like Crushing Choke, Earth Crushing Stomp, and Throw Everything are really brilliant! More Aspects that encourage rarely-seen tactics would be great.
    I actually completely agree, as even with different triggers and applications, many aspects just translate into damage buffs rather than tactical options. I'll see if I can adapt any in ways that make them more situational, and drop the rest.

    Eliminate, rewrite or cap the runaway Aspects that can break encounters. Specifically I'm talking about Combo Finisher, Fuller Attack, Get Angry and Punishing Blow.
    I keep hoping I can find a way to work might points that will make the first three interesting and difficult to use resources, but it doesn't seem to be happening. The last doesn't stack with might point additions and doesn't fit the same category, but is pretty overpowered as it stands. Change it to once per round and with a might expenditure?

    Remove or redesign the Aspect abilities that require a full-round action, since they compete with the Strike maneuvers.
    I'm flagging all the aspects that need changes, and this is one of the harder ones since it requires the ability changes from an action to a modification. The only one I'd like to keep is warlock punch, because I've never seen it done before and it embodies what the class should do.

    You have a lot of Aspect abilities that focus on throws and wrestling moves. Consider adding the Setting Sun martial discipline and rewriting the Aspect abilities to augment Setting Sun maneuvers instead of functioning by themselves. For example, Their Feet Leave the Ground could apply to all Setting Sun maneuvers that apply involuntary movement to the opponent.
    Setting sun added, and Their Feet Leave the Ground multiplies Setting Sun's movement of creatures by 1.5 as well as applying knock-back to attacks.

    For Aspects that grant bonus damage, instead cool benefits when you hit with a maneuver that deals bonus damage. For example, maybe Combo Finisher could grant 5 Might when you kill an opponent with a martial strike.
    I won't give abilities that grant might points, since the system already looks exploitable, but I agree benefits>damage and will make changes.

    Devastating Blow could grant Improved Critical and bypass some types of critical hit immunity when you hit with a martial strike.
    Changed to
    Devastating Blow: The Din Child gains the Improved Critical feat for unarmed strikes. When using a martial strike or adding at least a +5 damage bonus with Power Attack, the Din Child ignore critical hit immunity against creatures lacking vulnerable anatomy.

    Punishing Blow could grant a free knockdown or bull rush attempt when you hit with a counter from the Falling Mountain discipline.
    Changed to
    Punishing Blow: Whenever the Din Child uses a successful counter maneuver (from the falling mountain discipline), he may immediately make a grapple attempt if he has Crushing Choke, a bull rush attempt if he has incredible force, or a sunder attempt if he has Wall Crushing.

    Wall Crushing could add the multiple-square benefit to Stone Dragon maneuvers that ignore hardness, instead of working by itself.
    And so it now does:
    Wall Crushing: The Din Child gains Improved Sunder. When making an attack that ignores hardness, and attacking one continuous material, such as a wall or a mountain, his attack targets all of the material within a 5ft radius per 5 damage dealt.

    Add features that grant defensive benefits. You have very few maneuvers to help you defensively, and most of them aren't available before the upper levels.
    That had been a stylistic choice because I wanted to promote caution and tension in combat. If you don't want to be hit, kill them before they hit you. Does this not work as well in practice as it does in my head? I've built far more characters than I've played, so I'm sure to have misconceptions.

    Just out of curiosity, what is the good way that something can be broken?

    @Amnoriath
    My first two paragraphs were misunderstandings, so that's not a great start.

    Many of the aspects are being changed as result of Jiriku's advice, so the problems with leaps and full actions shouldn't exist anymore.

    5. You are using Ganondorf I would think some shapeshifting forms could be warranted.
    That's been considered, but it contrasted with a lot of character images that otherwise fit the class, and I didn't want to get into druidic madness. There would be a thin line between just another damage increase and adding high tier versatility in a single aspect.

    6. Well, technically it is with any attack so getting large reach is very easy. Even as a standard action it is a rather minor effect. I think something with fear would be better and make it a 30 foot cone as a standard action.
    Fear effects through attacks are covered through the smoldering brimstone discipline, and the aspect will be changing anyway to become a modifier for existing effects.
    Last edited by qazzquimby; 2014-06-06 at 12:15 AM.

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    Default Re: The Din Child - OPT3 Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    @Blitz

    Blitz: As an immediate action made during your turn you may spend 3MP to move 5' in any direction as long as the movement facilitates dealing damage to a creature.

    I like the mechanic to ignore critical hit immunity by simply applying more brute force, that's amazing.

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    Default Re: The Din Child - OPT3 Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    The entire body is vulnerable anatomy.
    I'm considering making might point costs scale with your HD, so you have a roughly stable amount rather than starting starved and ending drowned.

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    Default Re: The Din Child - OPT3 Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    Well, I'm sure you're aware that my groove system has a maximum which is lower while out of combat, so it sets a minimal rate when you start combat.

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    Default Re: The Din Child - OPT3 Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    Maneuvers changed so smoldering hellfire is no longer required
    Weapon and armor proficiency added.

    Spoiler: Blitz changed
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    Blitz:As an immediate action made during your turn you may spend 2*HD might points to move 5' in any direction, as long as you make an attack immediately after the movement. By multiplying the might point cost he may multiply the allowed movement, using additive multiplication as normal. By paying 6*HD might points he may move upwards 5ft, which can be multiplied the same way and can be done in the same action as other blitz movement.


    Spoiler: Damage Destruction added
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    Damage Destruction/-: Once per round, when the Din Child negates damage with damage reduction, the Din Child may force the attacking creature to make a Reflex save, or be knocked back 5ft +5ft per 5 damage negated after the attack.


    Get Angry caps at 3 rages, and is considerably harder to fuel.

    Spoiler: Mind Breaking Strength added
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    Mind Breaking Strength: the Din Child gains the Natural Bully and Resounding Blow (with his unarmed strikes qualifying as a weapon) feats. Whenever the Din Child would cause a creature to gain a fear condition, he may force them to make a will save against the same DC-10 or take the next most severe fear condition (shaken -> frightened -> panicked -> cowering) for the same duration.


    Spoiler: Scorched Earth added
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    Scorched Earth:When you make an attack that deals hellfire damage, you may choose to light the ground of a 5ft space instead of targeting a creature. If you do, any creature within the targeted space is allowed a reflex save to move 5ft. The fire continues as long as the Din Child expends 1*HD might points per round to maintain it. On the round the fire is made, it deals damage equal to the attack that created it to every creature in its space. For every subsequent round, the fire deals only half this damage.


    Spoiler: Sudden Reversal added
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    Sudden Reversal: The Din Child gains the Improved Disarm feat. Immediately after taking a creature's weapon, the Din Child may make an attack on the creature with the taken weapon.


    Wall crushing adds "When making an attack that ignores hardness or damage resistance, the attack ignores both."

    All might point costs reflect HD.

    Several aspects removed, such as fuller attack and combo finisher.

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    Default Re: The Din Child - T3 Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    I do like the scorched earth addition, it feels more like a boss or miniboss effect which fleshes out this class' BBEG appeal... and considering how TLoZ:OoT is rated on metacritic, and my own experiences with it growing up I'd say that ganondorf is widely considered to be one of the primary BBEG's.

    You should mention that the damage from scorched earth attacks players, currently it just says it lights the square on fire and does half it's damage. My squares! Noooo.

    If you'd be so kind, when you release a major mechanic change such as the apparent "might now scales off HD in usage" would you post the new mechanic and explain it's rationale in addition and/or implementation?

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    Default Re: The Din Child - T3 Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    You should mention that the damage from scorched earth attacks players, currently it just says it lights the square on fire and does half it's damage. My squares! Noooo.
    It currently says:
    "On the round the fire is made, it deals damage equal to the attack that created it to every creature in its space. For every subsequent round, the fire deals only half this damage."
    which damages creatures, I'm pretty sure.

    If you'd be so kind, when you release a major mechanic change such as the apparent "might now scales off HD in usage" would you post the new mechanic and explain it's rationale in addition and/or implementation?
    I'd mentioned the rationale in a previous post I think. Requiring a flat point cost, assuming a decent cost for mid level characters, makes abilities impossible to use at low levels, because the combined HD of creatures you're killing is so low, and makes them practically free at high levels. Making the cost reflect your HD, (while unfortunate, because applying penalties with level advancement is frustrating) means that players always have abilities as long as they're bathed in the blood of a challenging opposition. Most importantly, it means that players should never have a vast, exploitable pool of might points. It needs play-testing, but I think the resource should be scarce.

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    Default Re: The Din Child - T3 Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    Sometimes I use "broken" as a compliment, as in "man your character is so broken!", meaning the player has done a great job of building a powerful character.

    That had been a stylistic choice because I wanted to promote caution and tension in combat. If you don't want to be hit, kill them before they hit you. Does this not work as well in practice as it does in my head? I've built far more characters than I've played, so I'm sure to have misconceptions.
    High-level, high-optimization D&D has been characterized as "rocket tag", in reference to shooter games where every player grabs a rocket launcher and can 1-shot or 2-shot any other player. He lives the longest who dodges the best. In D&D, my favorite strategies are:

    (a) shoot first
    high initiative
    surprise
    very high movement rate
    (b) be hard to find
    Attack from long range
    sneaking around
    misdirect the enemy's attention
    block divination magic
    (c) be hard to hit
    action denial
    taking cover
    debuffing
    miss chance
    spell resistance
    armor class
    hit and run
    (d) be able to soak more hits than the other guy
    damage reduction
    energy resistance
    immunity to various attack forms
    very high hit point total
    great saving throws
    panic buttons (anything you can do as an immediate action to avert disaster at the last moment before an attack)

    The Child of Din has options in these arenas, some of which are quite good. But a few more might not hurt. As an additional note, a Child of Din wants to avoid being what I would call a "critically asymmetric character". This is my term for characters who are massively better on offense than on defense, especially characters who can deal more damage in a single round than their own maximum hit points (or the maximum hit points of other party members). It's dangerous to be critically asymmetric because if you ever fail a save against the wrong kind of compulsion magic (like dominate person or death urge) you can easily kill yourself or half the party in one or two rounds. Against the wrong kind of enemy, critically asymmetric characters are more dangerous to their friends than to their foes. As a killer DM I can say that about half my kills come from using compulsion magic on the PCs and turning their own optimization against them.
    Subclasses for 5E: magus of blades, shadowcraft assassin, spellthief, void disciple
    Guides for 5E: Practical fiend-binding

    D&D Remix for 3.x: balanced base classes and feats, all in the authentic flavor of the originals. Most popular: monk and fighter.


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    Default Re: The Din Child - T3 Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    Some tries at thematic defensive aspects:

    Forced Misdirection: Once per round, when the Din Child is attacked, if there is another creature within 5ft of the Din child and within 10ft of the attacker (hereby known as the shielding creature), the Din Child can attempt to use them to block the attack. If he does, the shielding creature must make a reflex save with a -5 penalty, or the attack is redirected to the it. If the shielding creature makes the save, the Din Child loses his Dex bonus to AC for the attack.

    Shield of Meat: In addition, when the Din Child pins a creature, the creature remains pinned until it succeeds in a an opposed grapple check against the Din Child to escape. While pinning a creature, the Din Child may hold the creature as a shield. The Din Child gains a +4 shield bonus to AC, and any missed attack made against the Din Child while he has his Dex bonus to AC hits the pinned creature instead.

    Life From Death: Immediately after the Din Child's might point total reaches 1*HD, or increases beyond that, he may spend 1*HD might points to recover 1/4 of his maximum health, rounding down. If this would bring the Din Child above maximum health, the extra healing is added as temporary health.

    Death Ignoring Determination: While the Din Child is under 0 health, he ignores the dying or dead conditions so long as he expends (0-hp)*HD every round.
    Last edited by qazzquimby; 2014-06-08 at 02:14 AM.

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    Default Re: The Din Child - T3 Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    Honestly, looking at what's in the OP, I don't see a Tier 2 or 3 class, I see a heavily optimized out of the box Tier 4. I see something akin to a nasty charger build leap attack spirit lion totem whirling frenzy barbarian.

    Suggestions to correct this.

    Skills: Give it more skill points and a wider range of class skills. Your excise can be that because your focus for combat training is in being just that stupidly strong that you go "Hulk Smash" and it's over that you have more time to spend learning things that don't necessarily directly relate to hulk smashing.

    Attribute dependency: It obviously is intended to need strength. Con and Dex are Immensely helpful. Mental stats are useful depending on individual player desires relevant too skills. Give the class class features that allow you to drop some/all uses for some/all the stats other then strength. Heck, give it a big enough skill point pool and enough good class skill options and then move Con, Dex and Int over to Str completely and it's a SAD, or at most MAD if you want to use Cha or Wis for something (Scouting/social interactions.) class. This helps you get focused on being good at the things your gonna be good at.

    Lastly, some of suggestions for things you could do that would up it's melee power some. You don't necessarily need to, or even should, use all of them, but using some might be beneficial. Particularly in light of what's already up there.

    Power Attack: Give the class an auto magic 2-1 trade in on PA for unarmed strikes.

    Str Mod: Similarly, give it an automatic 1.5 return on damage. Maybe upgrade a higher levels to x2.

    Monk's Decisive Strike: It's an AFC in PHB 2, consider cribbing it.

    Pounce: Just an all around good melee ability. Might not be essential since you've got maneuvers, but a reliable source (Read: EX ability that's always on once gained.) might not be a bad idea.

    Dungeon Crasher: Figher AFC form Dungeon Scape. Consider cribbing this as well and clarifying that any solidish ground/floor/ext works for triggering it, and maybe giving the bullsrush chain used to optimize it as automatic bonus feats.

    To Hit but not To Damage Booster: Something so that they can consistently, as a built in always on class feature, have a high enough boost to hit that they don't have to worry about penalty's form size from enlarge person or using full power attack and/or full stone power, they can just default to that. Maybe word the bonus that it doesn't work unless your taking a penalty form something like growth or use of PA or SP and then only enough to compensate so players don't go "Hey, why bother with that when I can make sure I all but auto hit everything". This way, they still hit fairly often, and thus get to show off that massive power there suppose to be themed on.

    Just off the top of my head.
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    Default Re: The Din Child - T3 Raw Power Melee With Some Tactical Cleverness - PEACH ME

    Honestly, looking at what's in the OP, I don't see a Tier 2 or 3 class, I see a heavily optimized out of the box Tier 4. I see something akin to a nasty charger build leap attack spirit lion totem whirling frenzy barbarian.
    Does it still say T2 somewhere? Thread name is now T3, and I didn't think there was another mention.
    How much are T3s usually capable of? With the right aspects, he laughs at many physical challenges, and can approach obstacles in different ways. It seems T3 to me.

    Skills:
    Upped to 4+int, and players can select two additional class skills at 1st level.

    Attribute dependency:
    I think it's focused on strength more than enough, and is in a happy place where other attributes are rewarding, but not priority. Very SAD classes are boring, because it stops being resource management, and starts being straight optimization.

    Lastly, some of suggestions for things you could do that would up it's melee power some.
    I've been downing its melee power at community request for some time.

    Power Attack: Give the class an auto magic 2-1 trade in on PA for unarmed strikes.
    Str Mod: Similarly, give it an automatic 1.5 return on damage. Maybe upgrade a higher levels to x2.
    Monk's Decisive Strike: It's an AFC in PHB 2, consider cribbing it.
    I've been steadily removing abilities like these, in favour of more tactically interesting abilities. It's also interesting that you started by saying the class looked pre-optimized and T4, and all your suggestions just increase smashing.

    Pounce: Just an all around good melee ability. Might not be essential since you've got maneuvers, but a reliable source (Read: EX ability that's always on once gained.) might not be a bad idea.
    A good idea, but redundant with Blitz.

    Dungeon Crasher: Figher AFC form Dungeon Scape. Consider cribbing this as well and clarifying that any solidish ground/floor/ext works for triggering it, and maybe giving the bullsrush chain used to optimize it as automatic bonus feats.
    I'll consider a trap-stomping aspect. The additional damage from crushing on a wall needs to be somehow executed with the Din Child, since he's constantly throwing people into things. Are there existing rules for this?

    To Hit but not To Damage Booster:
    If I can think of an interesting way to execute it, rather than adding pluses to the numbers.

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