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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Jade_Tarem's Avatar

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    Default Designer's Quandary II - The Tolerance Effect

    No, it's not a thread about substance abuse .

    I have a problem in my campaign, having to do with the preferances of my players in terms of roleplaying vs. combat. A little bit of background explanation is needed, though.

    For the longest time, on the occasions that I DM'd, it was for a group in my hometown that was, so to speak, a little light on roleplaying. "Yeah, yeah, let's kill stuff." Was only halfway a joke in this group. After moving to college I now DM more consistantly, and for a much smaller group (small enough that we have to gestalt to create a full party and run a module if someone doesn't show up). The campaign that I created had some of the most extensive alterations and histories that I had ever made to the standard DnD ruleset and through either luck or inspiration I managed to balace the changes beautifully. It also helps that the party has no primary casters in it, in terms of keeping a lid on radical actions.

    The basic gist is that of a military campaign, where animals and some plants, and all monsters, have the basic intelligence equivalent to humans and the other "civilized" races. The details are best left to a homebrew thread but, due to a prophecy, the civilized races, the forces of nature, and the monster races are now bound into a three-way battle for racial supremacy (Outsiders are out - the only appearances made by any such will be as mercenaries or special agents of factions not related to the war). The winning group gets to be the dominant force on the world for the next 1000 years (it's cyclic).

    But back to the problem: going into the campaign the newly reduced party and I got a "feel" for one another and we could actually, truly do some reasonable roleplaying (the party actually makes decisions not to kill stuff sometimes - I was nearly knocked flat the first time it happened) and are willing to make intelligent decisions, in character decisions, that allowed me to craft a more interesting plot than normal. This sounds wonderful right? It kinda is - twice now I've run a sort of "mystery thriller" module in the context of a Military Police action, and more or less removed them from the big battles by means of making them a special operations unit. One thing that I noticed when running the last session though - they become bored, easily bored, with protracted combat. Even with combat with a good bit of flavor added in, the players seemed fairly listless. The attitude was not "Oh noes! Zombies breaking through the wall!" but rather, "geez, how long is this gonna go on?" Considering that one player almost wet himself on a vague threat from an unknown wizard during one of the "mystery" mods, I would think large-scale undead attack would be slightly more disturbing, but there it is. I don't, I really don't, think that my "atmosphere" for the battle in question was done with any less forethought than the modules. I think that the players here at college are just tired of the mechanics-play. They've built up a tolerance and rolling the dice to bump the ugly is no longer the kick it once was, or any kick at all.

    It didn't bother me that much until I had the Realization. It was a realization similar to what Bond must go through every time he finds out that the girl he just had sex with is actually a communist spy hell-bent on the destruction of the free world, or what that guy in Minority Report experienced when he realized that the precog system was fundamentally flawed, right before his boss shot him.

    This is a military campaign.

    The modules are fun, but the main plot centers on the action between the three factions, and while diplomacy is an issue I can't keep the PC's from participating in battles much larger and longer than the one that nearly put them to sleep. I think I sorta have a fix, but I'm now unsure. So now I ask for help.

    1. I have access, at least for the moment, to Heroes of Battle.
    2. The PC's (a barbarian, a sniper-type ranger, and a demo-type rogue) all belong to a special ops unit (Unit 20) of an army in the base race faction (the KSA). This unit, at the moment, also includes an awakened wolf druid, an elven wizard, and a half-elven bard, all NPC's.
    3. I have created, currently, two additional adventures that will take them away from the main combat. After that, there's going to be an Azure-City type siege for them to defend against. This will involve a large battle, but it may not need to be an endless stream of attack rolls. After that, there will be an equally large battle in an almost reversed situation (the PCs are not yet to the level where what they do fundamentally alters the timeline.)
    4. Currently, they're in a situation where they're in the middle of an overrun city, trying to get people out (the wizard is split off from the main group). This will need to feature a large number of rolls. I at least need to get them out of there without looking like I'm rushing them out.
    5. I don't think any of them read these forums.
    6. Paladin is, at the moment, banned for PCs and unlikely for NPCs.

    My current and only fix that I can think of is to make future missions, fights, and battles heavily objective based, with the fighting treated as more of an obstacle than an actual combat. I can't tell how well that would work, and would appreciate feedback. I'm welcome to any suggestion, really, which is why the constraints are appropriately vague. I'll take any help I can get.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by Jade_Tarem; 2007-02-21 at 03:52 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Designer's Quandary II - The Tolerance Effect

    So you're saying that the problem is that although this is a military campaign, your players are enjoying the military parts the least, right?

    Why not just change the campaign to focus on whatever the players like most? There's no law forcing you to keep it a military campaign if it's not working. You could have them reassigned to an investigation unit or something - once you're out of the current situation, anyway.

    - Saph

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    tarbrush's Avatar

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    Default Re: Designer's Quandary II - The Tolerance Effect

    I always liked objectives. Make the consequences of the fight far more earth-shattering than simply 'try not to die'.

    F'rinstance, in the zombies coming through the wall scenario, put them up against something over their challenge threshold and force them to hold out in the haunted house till help arrives.

    Then there's 'protect the important NPC'. Somebody needs to get somewhere alive and there's lots of beasties trying to kill them. If the NPC gets geeked, bad things happen.

    Or, the assassins. Evil wizard is casting his long drawn out Spell 'O' Doom. Break into his compund and disrupt the ritual before its too late.

    Even more fun is 'Bad guy getting away'. The baddie has done something nefarious and is trying to escape the scene of the crime, kill him before he gets away.

    All these are just cheap movie scenarios, but since you've got a well written and developed world already, you can add consequences in quite easily, and I think they really add to the urgency of an encounter.
    Don’t date the sane ones, they’ll only make you crazy. Date the really insane ones but never let them know where you live or work.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Designer's Quandary II - The Tolerance Effect

    *SPOILER ALERT* I'm gonna mention somethings from the module 'The Red Hand of Doom' (RHOD) for those of you who are players in that campaign might want to skip my post.

    First off, I've got the whole gambit of players (6 of them) in my group and it is very hard to balance the types of adventures to make sure everyone is having fun. With that said, you are spot on with the adventures being heavily objective based. The climax of RHOD is the Azure City like siege with the party having to handle a few different objectives to sway the outcome of the battle.

    Here are a few scenarios from the module:
    • A group of Hill Giants are in range making attacks on the city walls ... the PCs must stop them.
    • A sniper has just assassinated a major NPC during the attack ... the PCs must locate and neutralize the assassin.
    • The walls have been breached and the PCs must hold a stretch of road until reinforcements arrive.
    • A red dragon is creating more chaos in the city than the guards can handle ... again, the PCs must help out.
    • The PCs must make a final stand on the stairs of a temple going up against the horde leader and his elite troops.
    This final battle isn't the end, but definitely a memorable part of the campaign. The PCs must now go do a "dungeon crawl" of sorts to destroy the ultimate mastermind behind the attack before he summons an Aspect of Tiamat.

    It's been a fun module to run for the PCs, unfortunately I killed two characters last session and one of them my wife's character. I was upset, I really was and paid for it later. Hehehe

    Good luck to you Jade and like I said before, objective based vignettes / scenarios are the way to go.

    Dizlag

  5. - Top - End - #5
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    Fhaolan's Avatar

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    Default Re: Designer's Quandary II - The Tolerance Effect

    Okay, I need to think about this for a bit...

    Just to make sure I understand, let me restate what you said in my words. You used to deal with 'wargamer'-type players previously, and now you've got a bunch of 'performer'-type players. Due to the type of campaign, combat should figure heavily, but the players are showing little to no interest in the tactics and dice-rolling of D&D combat, apparantly because they feel it slows down the game too much. The problem lies in keeping the player's interest during the inevitable combats.

    Assuming that my restatement is accurate, let me see if I can help.

    I'm going to recommend some things that might seem very radical, and it may make things worse. Take everything I say with a grain of skepticism. The real goal here is having the combats indistinguishable from non-combats from a role-playing perspective.

    Take the miniatures out of the picture. I'm serious. What you want to do is streamline the combats down as much as you possibly can. Ignore AoO, reach, positioning, all that mess. You want to get to the point where you spend more time describing the combat than deciding the combat. Anything that slows down the combat needs to go away. If at any point you have to stop, roll dice, consult charts, examine the tactical map, adjust the position of the miniatures, measure out distances, ponder the monster's next action... you've lost the players. They're just not interested in that kind of thing.

    Make sure your descriptions of the combat are in an 'active' voice, rather than a 'passive' voice. Meaning anything you describe is actually important, or interesting. "Okay the zombie gets an attack of opportunity because you moved through a threatened space. It hits AC 22. What's your AC again? Okay, so it hits. Rolling damage.... A four. Mark that down, four damage." is exceedingly bad for these kinds of players. "The zombies press forward, an unstoppable wall of flesh grappling and tearing at you. Take four damage." Is better. If they don't ask which zombie hit them, don't tell them, because they're not interested. All they want is the description of the wave of zombies for them to role-play off of.

    You may even reach the point that you have to go systemless with the combats. Meaning you ignore hit points, AC, pretty much all mechanics. The players roll dice to give the impression of random chance, and then you as DM decide what happens. I normally don't recommend this kind of thing without many years of DMing under your belt, but it's something that all gamers really should do sometime for the experience.
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  6. - Top - End - #6
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    Diggorian's Avatar

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    Default Re: Designer's Quandary II - The Tolerance Effect

    From what you describe, I'm thinking the problem is in your presentation. Performer type players (like myself) want their RPGs to be more narrative than game. This means keeping the metagamey Fourth Wall solid.

    The style I'm advocating and that Fhaolan alluded to is called "Show, dont Tell." Showing is the DM functioning as only the senses of the players connecting them to game world without connecting perceptions to conclusions. Telling is the DM expressing an assumed conclusion.

    Show: "A three yard long and wide beast with scales of grey ore rips itself from the ground beneath, onyx black eyes shift predatorily as it shrieks from it's wide maw filled with rows of diamond-like teeth. Roll initiative." Player reation: What is the F**K is this??

    Tell: "A bullette burrows up from the ground and roars. Roll initiative." Player reaction is to recall what they know about bullettes.

    The Wizard threat creates all kinds of potential. Was the vague threat even a threat? Who's this wizard? What are his powers? When will he strike? Is it a he? Dramatic tension/expectation abounds.

    Zombies are zombies. As soon as ya name them they loose power. Experienced players have faced scores of them; tactics to fight them spring to mind automatically.

    Also, establish the need for combats, they should never feel like a random action interlude. Was the zombie encouter near a location of rumored necromancy? Are townfolks going missing? Are bodies showing up knawed upon with hollowed out skulls? These plot details in your story require an explanation.
    Last edited by Diggorian; 2007-02-21 at 12:56 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Designer's Quandary II - The Tolerance Effect

    I think you've got a lot of good suggestions so far, and I particularly like the idea of the protracted main battle being the thing that your PCs are trying to avoid. I rarely have any interest in slaying hordes of fodder characters.

    Put them on missions to infiltrate enemy camps and steal battle plans.
    Have them pose as returning scouts and give misinformation.
    Send them on a quest to the city's heavily trapped and haunted crypts to get the amulet of magicness that was buried with the first king.
    Send them to the dragon's lair to recruit them as elite soldiers.
    Charge them with a mission to find the missing supply caravan.

    Your war might have massive battles in it, but think of any good fantasy book. They rarely mention the mass combat aside from a little detail to let you know what is going on. It focuses on the special tasks that the heroes are carrying out. To use Tolkein as an example the books were all about moving a ring from point A to B, as the war was raging around them.

    I have to second what Fhaolan is suggesting as well. Removing the more cumbersome aspects of combat and replacing them with vivid descriptions will likely be very much appreciated if your group doesn't consist of gamers who are heavily into the mechanics of combat and the specifics. They very well might be happy with I'm attacking the lich or I'm going to try and flank the sorceress and sneak attack her with my shortsword as opposed to I move 30' to position B-9 and use my power attack for a -3 to hit and +6 damage on the bugbear in B-10.
    That is the kind of combat I've always prefered for most fights. Moving miniatures is fun and all, but it can get cumbersome. If a fight is very challenging or highly critical I'd prefer having all the details, so I can make the best possible decisions, but if I'm fighting a group of weaker monsters I don't care what square they are all in as long as I know rough positions.
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    Default Re: Designer's Quandary II - The Tolerance Effect

    Sometimes to make players more interested in combat, one needs to be a little devious. Indeed, vicious. Look up 'Tucker's Kobolds' for a good example of what I mean.

    Play combat situations in manners that challenge the players, especially if they are goal-oriented with unusual or difficult goals (kill the assassin in the crowd without harming any bystanders or even letting them know you have done it). Twist the combat so that hordes of minions do exist, but under the command of villains your players are familiar with or in some way hold a connection for them.

    If you've recently destroyed the wizard in your party's school, why not attack him with a zombie horde made of his former pupils? Refer to them by name when they attack him. Betray your characters with their supposed allies, or have their allies be charmed or dominated into fighting them.

    Screwing with the characters' sense of ethics always lends a more personal feel to combat.



    Make their goals personal, too. Sure, they're defending against the horde of zombies. Right now, they're holed up in the Inn where one of their personal contacts (Dreben the Innkeeper) that they made in the lower levels is cowering and trying not to get his brain eaten. Defending the place starts to become a little more imperative, especially when they start coming through the windows and Dreben runs, screaming like a little girl, into the kitchen where he is met by three ghasts and an allip.
    Last edited by Iituem; 2007-02-21 at 02:03 PM.
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