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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    PirateGuy

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    Default 3.5e Homebrew Feats (PEACH) Copy Maneuver and Various Spellthief feats

    So I have a couple of homebrew feats which I would like feedback on:

    Copy Maneuver Feats for Martial Adepts
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    Lesser Copy Maneuver
    Requires: 3rd level Maneuvers
    Benefit: By watching another martial adept closely, you copy the attack which was just performed. Normally, when another martial adept (whether friend or foe) initiates a maneuver, you may attempt a Martial Lore skill check to identify that maneuver. Should this check succeed, in addition to learning about the maneuver, you may also physically copy the maneuver yourself.

    Select a maneuver you currently have readied, of the same level or higher than the maneuver to be copied. You lose your original maneuver, and the copied maneuver is temporarily readied in its place, even if you do not meet its prerequisites. You can initiate this copied maneuver once, after which it is forgotten. You regain your original maneuver but it is now expended - its sublime energy used to power the copied maneuver. This expended original maneuver can be recovered normally.

    You may also choose to forget a copied maneuver as a free action without expending it, in which case you also regain your original maneuver, but it returns readied and not expended. If not used within the next 1 hour, this copied maneuver is also forgotten. Even after you forget it, if you observe it being performed again, you can make another Martial Lore check to copy the same maneuver again. You cannot use this feat to copy stances. You cannot copy a maneuver which is already on your list of maneuvers known, whether from classes, feats or items. You can only have 1 copied maneuver at a time. Your copied maneuver must be no higher than 2nd level.

    Improved Copy Maneuver
    Requires: 5th level Maneuvers, Lesser Copy Maneuver
    Benefit: This works as Lesser Copy Maneuver except as noted here. Your copied maneuver must be no higher than 4th level. Additionally, you may now hold 2 copied maneuvers at once. However, you cannot have more than one copy of the same maneuver at a time.

    Greater Copy Maneuver
    Requires: 7th level Maneuvers, Improved Copy Maneuver
    Benefit: This works as Improved Copy Maneuver except as noted here. Your copied maneuver must be no higher than 6th level. Additionally, you may now hold 3 copied maneuvers at once.

    Perfect Copy Maneuver
    Requires: 9th level Maneuvers, Greater Copy Maneuver
    Benefit: This works as Greater Copy Maneuver except as noted here. Your copied maneuver must be no higher than 8th level. Additionally, you may now hold 4 copied maneuvers at once.



    Feats for the Spellthief
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    Steal Supernatural Ability:
    Requires: Steal Spell-Like Ability class feature
    Benefit: You may use your Steal Spell-Like Ability class feature to steal Supernatural Abilities as well. You can only steal Supernatural Abilities that explicitly mimic spells (and powers if your Spellthief can also steal psionic powers). So for example, you could steal Magic Circle Against Evil from a Unicorn, but not the Breath Weapon of a Dragon (because it does not mimic any spell). The highest effective spell level for Supernatural Abilities which you can steal, equal to that for your Steal Spell-Like Ability. This temporary loss of a Supernatural Ability, does not disqualify the creature from anything, such as feats or prestige classes which have that Supernatural Ability as a prerequisite.

    Since this uses your Steal Spell-Like Ability class feature, you can choose which Spell-Like or Supernatural Ability to steal with each use; otherwise, the DM determines the stolen ability randomly from among the target's eligible Spell-Like and Supernatural Abilities. If you try to steal a Spell-Like or Supernatural Ability which the target does not have, or which you do not qualify for (e.g. because the spell level is too high), the DM determines the stolen ability randomly from among the target's eligible Spell-Like and Supernatural Abilities. While in possession of a stolen Spell-Like or Supernatural Ability, you cannot use Steal Spell-Like Ability (and hence cannot use this feat) again, until you lose access to your current stolen ability (by discharging it or after 1 minute, whichever comes first). You must use the stolen Supernatural Ability within 1 minute of acquiring it, or it is lost harmlessly. If the Supernatural Ability is continuously active (like the Unicorn's Magic Circle Against Evil), you may benefit from its effects for up to 1 minute, although you may also harmlessly discharge a continuously active effect as a free action, in which case it returns to the original target.

    Lesser Steal Skill:
    Requires: Absorb Spell class feature
    Benefit: You can use a sneak attack to temporarily steal a creature's skills. This is a supernatural ability. When you hit an opponent with sneak attack, you can choose to forgo 1d6 points of sneak attack damage and instead gain one of the target's trained skills (i.e. skills where the target has at least 1 rank). You can choose which skill to steal; otherwise, the DM determines the stolen skill randomly from among the target's trained skills (excluding skills you have already stolen). If you try to steal a skill that the target does not have ranks in, the stolen skill is determined randomly from among the target's trained skills (excluding skills you have already stolen). If the target is willing, you can steal a skill with a touch as a standard action.

    The stolen skill benefits you for a number of rounds equal to your highest mental score bonus (Int, Wis or Cha; minimum 1 round) and then returns to the target creature. While the skill is stolen, the creature takes a -2 penalty to that skill. You are treated as having half the target's skill ranks (round down minimum 1). These virtual skill ranks do not grant you synergy bonus. If your current ranks are already equal to or higher than this number, you instead gains a +2 untyped bonus to that skill. You may not use a stolen skill to qualify for anything, such as feats or prestige classes.

    A targets only suffers this -2 penalty once for a particular skill, even if that skill has been stolen by multiple Spellthieves. Similiarly, you only gain the single highest benefit, even if you have stolen the same skill from multiple targets. You would only be treated as having half the skill ranks of the creature with the highest skill ranks; or if your own skill ranks are equal to or higher than that, you only gain the +2 bonus once. If you try to steal the exact same skill which you have already stolen from a particular target, it resets the duration.

    E.g. Lets say that you steal the Spellcraft skill from a creature. The original creature had 4 ranks in Spellcraft. Half of 4 is 2. If you have fewer than 2 ranks in Spellcraft, you are now treated as having 2 ranks in Spellcraft. If you have 2 or more ranks in Spellcraft, you now gain a +2 untyped bonus to Spellcraft. If you try to steal Spellcraft again from the same creature, it resets the duration. The creature suffers a -2 penalty to Spellcraft (however, his ranks have not changed, and so he is still considered as having the same ranks in Spellcraft).

    Improved Steal Skill:
    Requires: Discover Spell class feature, Lesser Steal Skill
    Benefit: This works like Lesser Steal Skill except as noted here. While the skill is stolen, the target takes a -5 penalty to that skill. You are treated as having the target's original skill ranks (instead of half). Or if your current ranks are already equal to or higher than this number, you instead gain a +5 bonus to that skill.

    Steal Feat:
    Requires: Absorb Spell class feature
    Benefit: You can use a sneak attack to temporarily steal a creature's feat. This is a supernatural ability. When you hit an opponent with sneak attack, you can choose to forgo 1d6 points of sneak attack damage and instead steal one of the creature's feats. You can only steal feats which you qualify for, and you can steal a feat even if you already have it normally. You can choose which feat to steal; otherwise, the DM determines the stolen feat randomly (excluding feats you have already stolen). If you try to steal a feat that the target does not have, or a feat which you do not qualify for, the stolen feat is determined randomly (excluding feats you have already stolen). If the target is willing, you can steal a feat with a touch as a standard action.

    The stolen feat benefits you for a number of rounds equal to your highest mental score bonus (Int, Wis or Cha; minimum 1 round) and then returns to the target. If you try to steal the exact same feat which you have already stolen from a particular target, it resets the duration. Feats that provide an additional limited resource, only raise the maximum cap of that resource, without actually providing the resource itself. For example, if you steal the Toughness feat, it would raise your maximum hit points by 3, but it would not actually provide you with 3 additional hit points. While the feat is stolen, the creature retains use of that feat, and anything which requires that feat (such as other feats or prestige classes). However, he takes a -2 penalty on all dice rolls which the stolen feat directly adds a numerical bonus to, or for which the feat reduces numerical penalties.

    E.g. if you steal the Power Attack feat from a target, when the creature uses power attack, he takes a -2 penalty on weapon damage rolls. This does not apply to weapon attack rolls, as Power Attack does not provide a bonus to attack rolls. E.g. if you steal the Two Weapon Fighting feat from a Rogue, the Rogue takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls when using Two Weapon Fighting, because this feat normally reduces the attack roll numerical penalties. However, the Rogue suffers no penalty to damage rolls. E.g. if you steal the Dodge feat from a creature. The creature does not suffer any penalty to AC, as AC is not determined by dice rolls.

    E.g. if you steal the Empower Spell feat from a Wizard, when the Wizard casts an Empowered Scorching Ray, the spell takes a -2 penalty on damage rolls. But not on attack rolls, caster level checks to overcome spell resistance, or concentration checks to cast defensively, as the feat does not provide a bonus to any of these. If you had instead stolen the Maximize spell feat, it would have no effect on Maximized Scorching Ray, as Maximized Spells do not roll for damage. E.g. if you steal the Natural Spell feat from a Druid, it would have virtually no effect, as Natural Spell provides no numerical bonus, and reduces no numerical penalty to any dice rolls.

    A targets only suffers this -2 penalty once per dice roll, even if he uses multiple stolen feats for that roll. E.g. lets say you steal the Diligent feat, and the Skill Focus Appraise feat from a creature. Both feats provide a bonus to Appraise checks, however when making Appraise checks, the creature only suffers a -2 penalty once.

    Special: You can only hold one stolen feat at a time. You can lose a stolen feat as a free action, upon which it returns to the original creature, in order to steal a different feat. You can take this feat multiple times, each time gaining the ability to hold one more stolen feat. You may use stolen feats to qualify for other stolen feats, but not for anything else, such as normal feats or prestige classes.
    Last edited by JeminiZero; 2014-06-13 at 02:55 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: 3.5e Homebrew Feats (PEACH) Copy Maneuver and Various Spellthief feats

    Steal Feat seems a little broad in concept for a class that is explicitly about stealing magical abilities from enemies. Furthermore, the basic concept of stealing a feat is more potent, I would argue, against feat-based types than stealing a spell is from mages, since one has usually less than 10 or so feats but a mage could have 20 or more, depending on level. The application of the feat renders this a little less powerful, but at the expense of not always making a difference. Lots of feats don't affect dice rolls at all.
    Steal Supernatural Ability has somewhat limited application when compared with the Steal Spell-Like Ability class feature. Spell-like abilities are almost all copies of existing spells (I think the yuan-ti has a spell-like that is unique to its description), but I'd hazard a guess (it's too late in the evening for me to do a thorough sampling) that most supernatural abilities are not. This restricts the feat's applicability to a very specific subset of monsters that the character has no guarantee they'll fight. Furthermore, a lot of very iconic supernatural abilities are un-stealable under this rule; you listed dragon's breath as an example. A player contemplating this feat is required to page through the Monster Manual in search of metagame knowledge regarding whether the feat will come up.

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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: 3.5e Homebrew Feats (PEACH) Copy Maneuver and Various Spellthief feats

    Quote Originally Posted by VoxRationis View Post
    Steal Feat seems a little broad in concept for a class that is explicitly about stealing magical abilities from enemies.
    Strangely enough, I've had people saying the opposite: That the theft of skills, feats and even martial maneuvers was an iconic ability in fiction that currently cannot be done in D&D. Regardless of whether the concept fits, for the moment I am more concerned with whether any of the feats above are mechanically too strong or too weak.

    Quote Originally Posted by VoxRationis View Post
    Furthermore, the basic concept of stealing a feat is more potent, I would argue, against feat-based types than stealing a spell is from mages, since one has usually less than 10 or so feats but a mage could have 20 or more depending on level
    I agree, which is why steal feat has such a limited effect.

    Similiarly, a level 20 Warblade has 7 manuevers readied by default, and being able to steal those maneuvers would seriously cramp his style. Which is why I made Copy Maneuver instead of Steal Maneuver.

    Quote Originally Posted by VoxRationis View Post
    The application of the feat renders this a little less powerful but at the expense of not always making a difference. Lots of feats don't affect dice rolls at all.
    While it is true that its combat applications are fairly limited, due consideration should be given to its utility applications: You can borrow feats from willing party members (and probably willing summoned creatures as well).

    The Spellthief could borrow Extend Spell from the Cleric and use to extend his own spells. He could borrow Tomb-Tainted soul fom the Dread Necro, so that the Dread Necro can heal him. He can borrow Spell Penetration/Arcane Mastery (with a handshake) from the Batman Wizard who banned Enchantment, to try and cast Charm Person on a target with SR. If his spell component pouch was somehow stolen or destroyed, he can borrow Eschew Materials from the Sorcerer.

    Quote Originally Posted by VoxRationis View Post
    Steal Supernatural Ability has somewhat limited application when compared with the Steal Spell-Like Ability class feature. Spell-like abilities are almost all copies of existing spells (I think the yuan-ti has a spell-like that is unique to its description), but I'd hazard a guess (it's too late in the evening for me to do a thorough sampling) that most supernatural abilities are not. This restricts the feat's applicability to a very specific subset of monsters that the character has no guarantee they'll fight. Furthermore, a lot of very iconic supernatural abilities are un-stealable under this rule; you listed dragon's breath as an example. A player contemplating this feat is required to page through the Monster Manual in search of metagame knowledge regarding whether the feat will come up.
    While true, if it were able to steal ANY supernatural ability (not just those that mimic spells) it would be far too powerful. Then you would be able to steal a Dragon's Breath.

    If you feel the current version is too weak, how about raising the level of Supernatural Abilites that can be stolen? Giving them class level/3 would let them steal 6th level spells, and say, rob Demons/Devils of their True Sight for a minute. (And also the Antimagic Cone from a Beholder).
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: 3.5e Homebrew Feats (PEACH) Copy Maneuver and Various Spellthief feats

    Steal Supernatural Ability: As previously addressed, this does sound very limited in use. I would suggest partly basing the mechanics off of the Hellbreaker's (FC2) ability of the same name:
    Quote Originally Posted by Fiendish Codex II, p.86
    Steal Supernatural Ability (Su): From 8th level on, you can steal supernatural abilities. This ability functions like the steal spell-like ability class feature. While in possession of a stolen spell-like or supernatural ability, you cannot use steal spell-like ability, steal supernatural ability, or neutralize spell-like ability again until you lose access to the stolen ability (by discharging it or after 1 minute, whichever comes first).
    Another issue that I haven't seen addressed with the Steal Sp ability applies here too, I guess: what happens if the stolen ability is a prerequisite for a feat/class/etc?

    Steal Skill: It's probably irrelevant or obvious to some, but would the virtual ranks enable synergy bonus? The -2 to skill works here, although I would've preferred the penalty be equal to the virtual rank/s you gain in exchange of having that virtual rank/s only last until the next time you use the related skill check.

    Steal Feat: Firstly, there's a small typo, "If the target is willing, you can steal a skill with a touch as a standard action." You might also address the issue that I raised earlier with Steal Su. I assume that it won't interfere with feats/prc, specially because the most feat-starved classes are the mundane ones (e.g. TWF Rogues, Sword-Board Fighters, etc. aka We-Suck-Enough-As-It-Is Inc.). Imagine a 2WF fighter losing the bulk of his potency (GTWF, ITWF, Double Hit, etc.) with just one Steal TWF.

    Since the feat's power level is hard to gauge with other feats also varying in power, I would suggest placing some limit like being able to steal feats with only 0 or 1 prerequisite feat. Taking the feat multiple times would then allow stealing of feats with an additional equivalent amount of prerequisite feats.

    Scout Fix or Mindspy Fix at the bottom :D
    Last edited by ben-zayb; 2014-06-12 at 03:04 AM.
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    Default Re: 3.5e Homebrew Feats (PEACH) Copy Maneuver and Various Spellthief feats

    No thoughts on Copy Maneuver?

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    Steal Supernatural Ability: As previously addressed, this does sound very limited in use. I would suggest partly basing the mechanics off of the Hellbreaker's (FC2) ability of the same name:
    That strikes me as really powerful for just 1 feat. Let me think on this a little.

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    Another issue that I haven't seen addressed with the Steal Sp ability applies here too, I guess: what happens if the stolen ability is a prerequisite for a feat/class/etc?
    Nothing I guess. I could add clarification text.

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    Steal Skill: It's probably irrelevant or obvious to some, but would the virtual ranks enable synergy bonus? The -2 to skill works here, although I would've preferred the penalty be equal to the virtual rank/s you gain in exchange of having that virtual rank/s only last until the next time you use the related skill check.
    Being able to completely steal a skill like that can cripple a target, and is far more powerful than what I would say a feat (or even 2 feats) is worth. The Rogue can no longer tumble/UMD/hide in plain sight, the caster and Diamond Mind initiator can no longer Concentrate, Samurai/Barbarian lose intimidate.

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    Steal Feat: Firstly, there's a small typo, "If the target is willing, you can steal a skill with a touch as a standard action."
    Thanks for spotting that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    You might also address the issue that I raised earlier with Steal Su. I assume that it won't interfere with feats/prc, specially because the most feat-starved classes are the mundane ones (e.g. TWF Rogues, Sword-Board Fighters, etc. aka We-Suck-Enough-As-It-Is Inc.). Imagine a 2WF fighter losing the bulk of his potency (GTWF, ITWF, Double Hit, etc.) with just one Steal TWF.
    The intention of Steal Feat is that the stolen feat only imposes a numerical penalty instead of cutting off access to the feat (and the other feats further up the chain) entirely. Perhaps I should clarify that text a little.

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    Since the feat's power level is hard to gauge with other feats also varying in power, I would suggest placing some limit like being able to steal feats with only 0 or 1 prerequisite feat. Taking the feat multiple times would then allow stealing of feats with an additional equivalent amount of prerequisite feats.
    There is already some text at the bottom that states you can only hold 1 Stolen Feat at time, for each time you take the 'Steal Feat' feat. So to steal multiple feats that occur in a chain, you would already need multiple 'Steal Feat' feats.
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    Default Re: 3.5e Homebrew Feats (PEACH) Copy Maneuver and Various Spellthief feats

    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post
    No thoughts on Copy Maneuver?
    Hm...Outside of already abuseable stuff like White Raven Tactics or Ironheart Surge, I really don't see anything especially unbalancing with them. (separating the benefit into a chain of four feats helps). Although I'd have to clarify... how about those seen from Martial Scripts or items like Crown of the White Raven? Seems like a good idea to fund your allies (who don't have swift action use) with low level boosts (or shadow jaunts) for you to copy repeatedly, especially if you are a Warblade or Crusader.

    Other than that, it's pretty spot on in terms of playability IMO, so kudos to that.
    Being able to completely steal a skill like that can cripple a target, and is far more powerful than what I would say a feat (or even 2 feats) is worth. The Rogue can no longer tumble/UMD/hide in plain sight, the caster and Diamond Mind initiator can no longer Concentrate, Samurai/Barbarian lose intimidate.
    Ah, yes, good point.
    The intention of Steal Feat is that the stolen feat only imposes a numerical penalty instead of cutting off access to the feat (and the other feats further up the chain) entirely. Perhaps I should clarify that text a little.


    There is already some text at the bottom that states you can only hold 1 Stolen Feat at time, for each time you take the 'Steal Feat' feat. So to steal multiple feats that occur in a chain, you would already need multiple 'Steal Feat' feats.
    What I was saying earlier was if you steal TWF, you disqualify your opponent for feats/classes requiring TWF too, in addition to just losing the feat. The clarification fixes this issue, though.
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    Default Re: 3.5e Homebrew Feats (PEACH) Copy Maneuver and Various Spellthief feats

    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post
    No thoughts on Copy Maneuver?
    Well, since you asked... They don't seem particularly ripe for abuse, but I also don't really see much in the way of general utility beyond certain niche situations where, say, one has multiple martial adepts without a maneuver such as Mountain Hammer available to them and you really want all of them to be able to get it off on the same round rather than delivering it in a more staggered manner.

    Granted, I'm not that intimate with initiators, so there might very well be something I'm missing completely. On the whole, while interesting, it seems very niche for someone who is in a party with other martial adepts, and while it doesn't demand the feat chain be taken by every martial adept, it doesn't really seem to cry out for attention to very many of them either.

    They're not broken to the point of being abuse by default or even easily abusable, they're not broken to the point of being unusable or accomplishing the opposite of their intended use, they're not particularly sweet, and they're not meh.
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    Default Re: 3.5e Homebrew Feats (PEACH) Copy Maneuver and Various Spellthief feats

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    Hm...Outside of already abuseable stuff like White Raven Tactics or Ironheart Surge, I really don't see anything especially unbalancing with them. (separating the benefit into a chain of four feats helps).
    Technically, if you wanted either of those, you could just as easily spend 2 feats on, say, Martial Study Wall of Blades, then either Martial Study IHS or buy an Iron Heart Vest (but the vest can be dispelled/shut down in an AMF). Copy Maneuver lets you use both, but only 1 at a time, and can be used to copy other stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    Although I'd have to clarify... how about those seen from Martial Scripts or items like Crown of the White Raven? Seems like a good idea to fund your allies (who don't have swift action use) with low level boosts (or shadow jaunts) for you to copy repeatedly, especially if you are a Warblade or Crusader.
    I suppose I should add some restrictions that you can't copy a Maneuver which you already know, or which you currently have already copied.

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    Other than that, it's pretty spot on in terms of playability IMO, so kudos to that.
    Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    They're not broken to the point of being abuse by default or even easily abusable, they're not broken to the point of being unusable or accomplishing the opposite of their intended use, they're not particularly sweet, and they're not meh.
    I suppose the question is whether the feat is a viable option. I.e. would it give a comparative amount of power to other feats a Martial Adept could reasonable take at the approximate level. My main comparison (as noted above) was to the Martial Study Line that grants extra maneuvers known. 4 feats gives you access to level 8 Maneuvers known, but they can vary depending on the situation (which can be both a pro and a con).
    Last edited by JeminiZero; 2014-06-12 at 06:24 AM.
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    Spellblade Tennis Throw out nigh infinite spells per round
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