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  1. - Top - End - #781
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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by thethird View Post
    Could you please expand on those?
    1: I see how it can get rid of players, and since it gets rid of players it also gets rids of players that cause trouble (which are a small subset of players). But you seem to imply that it only deters players that cause trouble, and I don't really see that logic.
    I do. It's called affirming the consequent. It goes like this:

    1. If Player X is a Problem Player, then he/she won't like my houserule.
    2. Player X does not like my houserule.
    3. Therefore, Player X is a Problem Player.

    It doesn't occur to him (or rather, he is unwilling to acknowledge) that non-problem players could also object to his rules.

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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by thethird View Post
    *Confused*
    Using the built in mechanic of quoting him accurately is using the rules in a manner Jedipotter did not intend, giving you an unfair advantage, and circumventing the challenge of debating him when he can revise the history of what he claims he said by whim..... Cheater
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  3. - Top - End - #783
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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by thethird View Post
    Could you please expand on those?

    1: I see how it can get rid of players, and since it gets rid of players it also gets rids of players that cause trouble (which are a small subset of players). But you seem to imply that it only deters players that cause trouble, and I don't really see that logic.

    Well, yes. Problem players have a mindset that can be countered. As soon as you do that, they leave. Take Problem Druid Player: He has his sheets of every creature in D20 so he can wildshape into the perfect creature for each encounter or action. He does not so much ''want to play the game'' as he ''wants an audience and people he can put down''. He can't wait for any character to try something so he can wildshape into something and do it ten times better. But when he sees ''must have creature part'' and ''might loose mind'', he leaves the game.


    Quote Originally Posted by thethird View Post
    2: Fun is a really vague concept, but "nerfing" things rarely makes things equal. Could you please expand upon how it becomes more "equal"?
    Like above, any one polymorphing can't just cherry pick creatures. This puts polymorph back down to ''can change into a dozen or so shapes'', but not every creature in every book. Spellcasters have a lot of power and ability to do things, and 3X/P have almost no controls or drawbacks for that power. There is no cost. By adding cost, you cut down on the power a lot.



    Quote Originally Posted by thethird View Post
    3: I would say that most of your fix, are something of "DM's whim" as we agreed to call them earlier. Also when I asked for clarification you have been explicitly vague. So I would say that it hardly makes things less vague. Wouldn't you agree?
    DM's whim? I guess, but that is true for every DM right? Most Dm's have House Rules.

    It make the rules and game play less vague.

  4. - Top - End - #784
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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    (I've actually built a snail stronger than this guy)
    To be fair, said snail has an enthralled village on his back, and can fly.
    Copy this to your signature if you love Jade_Tarem, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    A 20th-level fighter should be able to break rainbows in half with their bare hands and then dual-wield the parts of the rainbow.

    Dual-wield the rainbow. Taste the rainbow.

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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by Svata View Post
    To be fair, said snail has an enthralled village on his back, and can fly.
    I actually meant to link the character sheet there. And you left out the size of the snail. C+, for anyone wondering
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

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  6. - Top - End - #786
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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by thethird View Post
    *Confused*
    Easy, see you took a quote from how many pages ago, and combined it with a quote from just a page ago. Yes, I said...several pages ago...an all three character could be fun. Then just a page ago, I said, a character with less then ten in all abilites.

    So why are you confused? Don't jump back several pages and take something out of context to try to prove your point. My example is: A character with less then ten in all abilites.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronGolem View Post

    It doesn't occur to him (or rather, he is unwilling to acknowledge) that non-problem players could also object to his rules.
    Logic is silly, and has little place in the real world. It's like saying ''everyone who won't eat dirt is unhappy'', then some people don't eat dirt...and you say ''ha, your unhappy''.

    Most non-problem players don't have a problem with the houserules. It's rare, but it happens. They often just pick another class or otherwise ignore the houserule. You could play a spellcaster and only take spells with verbal componets for example.

  7. - Top - End - #787
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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Well, yes. Problem players have a mindset that can be countered. As soon as you do that, they leave. Take Problem Druid Player: He has his sheets of every creature in D20 so he can wildshape into the perfect creature for each encounter or action. He does not so much ''want to play the game'' as he ''wants an audience and people he can put down''. He can't wait for any character to try something so he can wildshape into something and do it ten times better. But when he sees ''must have creature part'' and ''might loose mind'', he leaves the game.
    That doesn't seem to indicate that he was a problem player. He didn't cause any problem at all. If I were to draw conclusions for the number of problems that particular player caused I would say Zero-None i.e. he is not a problem player. Unless you are trying to say that problem player is anyone who doesn't play with you, which is a new definition of the ever growing term.

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Like above, any one polymorphing can't just cherry pick creatures. This puts polymorph back down to ''can change into a dozen or so shapes'', but not every creature in every book. Spellcasters have a lot of power and ability to do things, and 3X/P have almost no controls or drawbacks for that power. There is no cost. By adding cost, you cut down on the power a lot.
    What does that make it equal to? If a creature is capable to change form to a reduced list of forms does it suddenly become equal to a creature that is not capable to polymorph? Not trying to say that the nerf is good, just trying to understand why it is equal.

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    DM's whim? I guess, but that is true for every DM right? Most Dm's have House Rules.

    It make the rules and game play less vague.
    No, not really. Not every DM plays at DM's whim. And by the way we agreed that your DMing way is indeed at DM's whim.

    Quote Originally Posted by thethird View Post
    Then it is not "random" but at the "DM's whim" is it?
    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Sure
    Unless your players have preventive telepathy and know what you are going to whim before you even think about it, DM's whim doesn't make it less vague, it makes it MORE vague.

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Easy, see you took a quote from how many pages ago, and combined it with a quote from just a page ago. Yes, I said...several pages ago...an all three character could be fun. Then just a page ago, I said, a character with less then ten in all abilites.

    So why are you confused? Don't jump back several pages and take something out of context to try to prove your point. My example is: A character with less then ten in all abilites.
    So is a character with 3 in all stats fun to play or not?
    Last edited by thethird; 2014-07-08 at 06:19 PM.
    Thanks a lot Gengy for the awesome... just a sec... avatar. :)

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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    I actually meant to link the character sheet there. And you left out the size of the snail. C+, for anyone wondering
    I also left out that it required quite a bit of homebrew and a fairly lenient DM (guess who). But seriously, it is awesome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    A 20th-level fighter should be able to break rainbows in half with their bare hands and then dual-wield the parts of the rainbow.

    Dual-wield the rainbow. Taste the rainbow.

  9. - Top - End - #789
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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    False. Oh the Hot Air.....

    You can role play and have fun with any character. You can have a fighter with scores of all three and still play the game.

    It's just the way people play the game. Say your character has a three for all abilities and they fail at everything they try.....that can be fun. You don't have to have an ''awesome'' character to have fun.
    Oh yes, I can just imagine the hours of fun I could have with a Fighter that had lousy hitpoints, was too weak to wear decent armour, inflicted lousy damage and was basically useless at almost anything.

    I'm not saying every character has to be Pun Pin, Codzilla or an ubercharger to be fun to play, but your character should at least be able to contribute to the party's success somehow. An "all 3s Fighter" is basically unplayable IMHO...
    You try to sound vague with the word ''contribute'', but you mean combat right? After all DumbelBerry the halfling has less then ten in his abiities, but he still makes a great target. In a fight he will often move about and just take hits. But every hit he absorbs saves another character for another round. It's not as flashy as ''slaughtering tons of foes with a single blow'', but it's still contributing to the fight and the game.
    You see, the problem is that you have a Con of 3, so you have -4HP/level and are going to die. And why would any monster bother attacking the guy who is running around not doing anything? And no, he meant contributing period, since you are barely smarter than an animal, are ugly and offensive in the extreme (Cha 3), have no awareness (Wis 3), die when someone pulls your finger, have the reactions of a snail (I've actually built a snail stronger than this guy), and can't even carry 30lbs of gear.

    Oh, and is he, with his barely sentient intelligence of 3, in possession of his player's encyclopedic knowledge of monsters, their capabilities, and their weaknesses, as well as his player's incredible tactical acumen? This point is pulling stuff Jedipotter has stated in other threads, not me pulling accusations out of my nether regions.

    quotes nested, you switched off of all 3s in response to someone posting about all 3s.
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  10. - Top - End - #790
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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Well, I know plenty of players like you.
    Now, this statement (which is aimed at Thurbane) /could/ mean 'Well, I know plenty of rational perfectly acceptable players like you'. But somehow, I sense the intent is a lot more, 'I know plenty of [not good] players like you'.

    And good lord, Thurbane is (and was) extremely polite, rational, and reasonable. If he's a bad player, then you must actually be playing with these 'saints' you deride from existence every few posts.

    Except we know you're not, as you've stated you actively dislike/hate/etc a lot of your players. So that means...

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    1. Stop and get rid of any player that might cause a problem.
    But wait!

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Do I like all my players? No, not even close. I'd say I even dislike some of them.
    So obviously it's not even working in your group. And...


    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    They see a house rule and leave and don't come back. This works well.
    Does it? It sounds like even in your group you have a lot of players that you dislike who don't like your house rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    2. Makes sure everyone in the game has fun. Nerfing things makes everyone equal. Making some things harder makes everyone equal.
    Thus far in this topic alone you've stated that katana are overpowered (and cheating), that clerics may not (but then they also may) use spells on themselves as that is cheating, that relatively random classes may not use their class features as this is cheating, that clerics making noise at night is worthy of bringing down the hammer of their deity (cheating was implied here, but not directly stated), that being rewarded for slaying a dragon is cheating, and that only using information your character would know is, if not cheating, bad.

    I don't think that fulfills 'making sure everyone in the game has fun' at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    3. Make sure the game flows along easy. I fix a lot of the vague stuff, so there is no question about what can or can't be done.
    Can I summon something? 'Yes but then a lot of vague stuff happens'.
    Can I go slay the dragon? 'No, or yes but then a lot of vague stuff happens'.

    You're kinda drowning in vague stuff here, and there are a lot of questions about what can or can't be done.
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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kantolin View Post
    Can I summon something? 'Yes but then a lot of vague stuff happens'.
    Can I go slay the dragon? 'No, or yes but then a lot of vague stuff happens'.

    You're kinda drowning in vague stuff here, and there are a lot of questions about what can or can't be done.
    This is especially true because he apparently doesn't tell his players about the knowledge/spellcraft house rule until it actually comes up in game.

  12. - Top - End - #792
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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post

    My houserules are made to:

    1. Stop and get rid of any player that might cause a problem. They see a house rule and leave and don't come back. This works well.

    2. Makes sure everyone in the game has fun. Nerfing things makes everyone equal. Making some things harder makes everyone equal.

    3. Make sure the game flows along easy. I fix a lot of the vague stuff, so there is no question about what can or can't be done.
    1.Yes, they may get rid of problem players. However, they are no more likely to get rid of problem players than good ones. And some (like the ability of summoning to backfire horrendously) actually are more detrimental to good players (one who wanted to cause problems would be fine with summoning something that kills the rest of the party, a person who wanted to cooperate wouldn't).

    2. Nerfing doesn't do a good job of making things equal. Even making fly have a very short duration doesn't fix that wizards can use their spells to fly, while monks require an item (or graft).

    3.Really? Some of the examples you've given so far have made it more vague by leaving it to your whim. For example, lets take what you said is more sensible for artificers. That method brings up several questions:
    1:What if its on several full-caster spell lists at different levels?
    2: What about domain spells?
    3.What about spells that don't appear on any specific list, such as those granted by Mother Cyst?
    4. What about spells that are added onto a character's list at a lower level (i.e., a sand shaper can have Bull's Stregnth a as level one, but adds it to another class, not having its own spells).

    Now, isn't simply "use the lowest you know" much more direct than having to answer all of these?
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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Most non-problem players don't have a problem with the houserules. It's rare, but it happens. They often just pick another class or otherwise ignore the houserule. You could play a spellcaster and only take spells with verbal componets for example.
    While it is true many players do not have problem with houserules in general.
    I take some umbrage to your implication that having a problem with your house rules means one is probably a quote-unquote problem player.

    As to finding ways around the houserule: One might, but since many spells are at the DMs whim, taking verbal only spells might mean that I need to roll pronunciation checks (because some of the verbal components are complex and have odd phoneme combinations, like a glottal trill, or a uvular sibilant fricative)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deophaun View Post
    Player: I'll use a classic ploy. "Help! Guards! He's having a seizure!"
    DM: You're the only one in the prison.
    Player: I'm very convincing.
    DM: And there are no guards.
    Player: But there's masonry.
    DM: It's not even animate, let alone sentient.
    Player: That's ok. I'll take the penalty.

  14. - Top - End - #794
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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Logic is silly, and has little place in the real world.
    Ah, yes, this old chestnut. When you realize that you are bad at logic, attack logic itself. Lots of people do this when losing an argument, but rarely as openly as you are. However, you're still ultimately making the same sour-grapes rationalization.

    More to the point, your statement is objectively wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    It's like saying ''everyone who won't eat dirt is unhappy'', then some people don't eat dirt...and you say ''ha, your unhappy''.
    Your "everyone who won't eat dirt is unhappy" example maps not to anything I've said, but to your own starting point of "anyone who doesn't like my rules is probably a problem player".

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Most non-problem players don't have a problem with the houserules. It's rare, but it happens. They often just pick another class or otherwise ignore the houserule. You could play a spellcaster and only take spells with verbal componets for example.
    Bad logic again. "Most X are Y" does not suggest "Most Non-X are Non-Y".

    Also, your judgment on who is and isn't a "problem player" clearly cannot be trusted anyway, given your penchant for strawmen and circular reasoning.
    Last edited by TheIronGolem; 2014-07-08 at 06:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    This is especially true because he apparently doesn't tell his players about the knowledge/spellcraft house rule until it actually comes up in game.
    Speaking of, he never addressed my very politely worded request for him specifically to explain how classes have too many skill points when the one with the most (the Rogue) cannot perform all of the skills they are expected to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    A 20th-level fighter should be able to break rainbows in half with their bare hands and then dual-wield the parts of the rainbow.

    Dual-wield the rainbow. Taste the rainbow.

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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Logic is silly, and has little place in the real world.
    I think that just about sums up this whole thread.
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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by Svata View Post
    Speaking of, he never addressed my very politely worded request for him specifically to explain how classes have too many skill points when the one with the most (the Rogue) cannot perform all of the skills they are expected to.
    I explained that one. His problem is when you keep putting points into the skill so that you can actually make the checks consistently.
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

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  18. - Top - End - #798
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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by thethird View Post

    That doesn't seem to indicate that he was a problem player. He didn't cause any problem at all. If I were to draw conclusions for the number of problems that particular player caused I would say Zero-None i.e. he is not a problem player. Unless you are trying to say that problem player is anyone who doesn't play with you, which is a new definition of the ever growing term.
    So you would not count someone who just wants to play the game to put down others in front of an audiance as a problem player? Well I would.


    Quote Originally Posted by thethird View Post

    What does that make it equal to? If a creature is capable to change form to a reduced list of forms does it suddenly become equal to a creature that is not capable to polymorph? Not trying to say that the nerf is good, just trying to understand why it is equal.
    Having say a dozen forms to polymorph into makes it more equal then every creature in every book. This stops a lot of polymorph abuse. So a spellcaster with polymorph can't dominate a game.


    Quote Originally Posted by thethird View Post
    No, not really. Not every DM plays at DM's whim. And by the way we agreed that your DMing way is indeed at DM's whim.
    So it's a ''whim'' if you don't like it, but it's ''ok'' if you do like it?

    Quote Originally Posted by thethird View Post
    So is a character with 3 in all stats fun to play or not?
    Yes, depending on the player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kantolin View Post
    Does it? It sounds like even in your group you have a lot of players that you dislike who don't like your house rules.
    Yes, unlike every other person on this board, I don't always game with my best, best pals in the whole wide world. I often game with ''I know his name'' type people, or even ''she is my cousin'' type people.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kantolin View Post

    Thus far in this topic alone you've stated that katana are overpowered (and cheating), that clerics may not (but then they also may) use spells on themselves as that is cheating, that relatively random classes may not use their class features as this is cheating, that clerics making noise at night is worthy of bringing down the hammer of their deity (cheating was implied here, but not directly stated), that being rewarded for slaying a dragon is cheating, and that only using information your character would know is, if not cheating, bad.
    Not exactly, your falling for the hype. I said the katana is a good way to spot a problem optimizer. I never said that cleric spellcasting is cheating, my fix is to promote more role-play. I never said using class features is cheating in general. And it's not cheating to slay a dragon, um, what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kantolin View Post

    Can I summon something? 'Yes but then a lot of vague stuff happens'.
    Can I go slay the dragon? 'No, or yes but then a lot of vague stuff happens'.

    You're kinda drowning in vague stuff here, and there are a lot of questions about what can or can't be done.
    Well, I see nothing wrong with ''spells are full of wonder and mystery and strange unknown things might happen'', as opposed to (robot voice)* it is just like page 44 says*

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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    False. Oh the Hot Air.....

    You can role play and have fun with any character. You can have a fighter with scores of all three and still play the game.

    It's just the way people play the game. Say your character has a three for all abilities and they fail at everything they try.....that can be fun. You don't have to have an ''awesome'' character to have fun.
    Oh yes, I can just imagine the hours of fun I could have with a Fighter that had lousy hitpoints, was too weak to wear decent armour, inflicted lousy damage and was basically useless at almost anything.

    I'm not saying every character has to be Pun Pin, Codzilla or an ubercharger to be fun to play, but your character should at least be able to contribute to the party's success somehow. An "all 3s Fighter" is basically unplayable IMHO...
    You try to sound vague with the word ''contribute'', but you mean combat right? After all DumbelBerry the halfling has less then ten in his abiities, but he still makes a great target. In a fight he will often move about and just take hits. But every hit he absorbs saves another character for another round. It's not as flashy as ''slaughtering tons of foes with a single blow'', but it's still contributing to the fight and the game.
    You see, the problem is that you have a Con of 3, so you have -4HP/level and are going to die. And why would any monster bother attacking the guy who is running around not doing anything? And no, he meant contributing period, since you are barely smarter than an animal, are ugly and offensive in the extreme (Cha 3), have no awareness (Wis 3), die when someone pulls your finger, have the reactions of a snail (I've actually built a snail stronger than this guy), and can't even carry 30lbs of gear.

    Oh, and is he, with his barely sentient intelligence of 3, in possession of his player's encyclopedic knowledge of monsters, their capabilities, and their weaknesses, as well as his player's incredible tactical acumen? This point is pulling stuff Jedipotter has stated in other threads, not me pulling accusations out of my nether regions.

    quotes nested, you switched off of all 3s in response to someone posting about all 3s.
    I will keep reposting this until you answer how this completely incompetent character who would die in a normal game almost immediately, much less your high fatality games.
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    I explained that one. His problem is when you keep putting points into the skill so that you can actually make the checks consistently.
    I know you did, Kel, and I think you are rather likely correct, but I had specifically asked him, and it is rather impolite to not answer a direct question. At the very least, he could have quoted you and said "pretty much this", or Keldrath is correct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    A 20th-level fighter should be able to break rainbows in half with their bare hands and then dual-wield the parts of the rainbow.

    Dual-wield the rainbow. Taste the rainbow.

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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    1.Yes, they may get rid of problem players. However, they are no more likely to get rid of problem players than good ones. And some (like the ability of summoning to backfire horrendously) actually are more detrimental to good players (one who wanted to cause problems would be fine with summoning something that kills the rest of the party, a person who wanted to cooperate wouldn't).
    Other then the people on this thread, and firedeamon, no body else even has blinked at the summoning stuff. A lot of players like the random fun that ''anything might show up''.

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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Other then the people on this thread, and firedeamon, no body else even has blinked at the summoning stuff. A lot of players like the random fun that ''anything might show up''.

    I'm not necessarily opposed to this, but I have to ask again. What is the percentage chance that, if you roll the "Summon something else" thing, you will summon something that is actively hostile to the party? Or is it just whatever you decide at the time?

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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Most non-problem players don't have a problem with the houserules.
    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    So you would not count someone who just wants to play the game to put down others in front of an audiance as a problem player? Well I would.
    What does that have to do with what I quoted or asked? Seriously. If he is not playing the game how is he a problem player?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Having say a dozen forms to polymorph into makes it more equal then every creature in every book. This stops a lot of polymorph abuse. So a spellcaster with polymorph can't dominate a game.
    Untrue. First of all you defined things as "equal" not "more equal". You just moved the goalpost (thing that you seem to do consistently). So just preemptively I would say that a caster doesn't need more than a dozen forms to break the game if he so wishes. And that those forms have an int score high enough to be unaffected by your "fix" so the actual broken forms available are not nerfed at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    So it's a ''whim'' if you don't like it, but it's ''ok'' if you do like it?
    No. I dislike whims. What would make you believe otherwise?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Yes, depending on the player.
    Then why does the argument against a character with all 3 get refuted because you changed the character to having all stats be lesser than 10?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Yes, unlike every other person on this board, I don't always game with my best, best pals in the whole wide world. I often game with ''I know his name'' type people, or even ''she is my cousin'' type people.
    They are not problem players. If they were your house rules would have stopped them.

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Not exactly, your falling for the hype. I said the katana is a good way to spot a problem optimizer. I never said that cleric spellcasting is cheating, my fix is to promote more role-play. I never said using class features is cheating in general. And it's not cheating to slay a dragon, um, what?
    Here, you said that having a katana is cheating.

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    Except that doesn't seem to fall under either the normal definition of cheating (breaking the rules), nor the definition of cheating that you have provided for us earlier (abusing a rule to gain an advantage). So you keep using the same phrase, buts its impossible to know what is actually means. That might be a response that gets more attention if you have a consistent meaning, even if it is nonstandard.
    To have a character take a feat that they would not have reasonably taken, just so the players optimized build works out, is that. If your making a 5th level homebody fighter who has never seen combat, he just worked as a guard, then they would not have Improved Initiative, Exotic Weapon(katana) and Weapon Focus(katna). A homebody cleric that had never been in a fight would have more non combative feats. But, an optimizer would never want to play a weak character with a feat like Negotiator, as then they could not be the crazy kanta hack and slasher. They would try some crazy backstory....''oh, um, my dad bought the kanta on a trip and my character learned how to use it to make his dad proud. I'm sure it even sounds creative to some...
    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Well, I see nothing wrong with ''spells are full of wonder and mystery and strange unknown things might happen'', as opposed to (robot voice)* it is just like page 44 says*
    How is that "full of wonder and mystery" less vague "than what page 44 says"?
    Last edited by thethird; 2014-07-08 at 07:00 PM.
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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Other then the people on this thread, and firedeamon, no body else even has blinked at the summoning stuff. A lot of players like the random fun that ''anything might show up''.
    I again request that you indicate who some of these players you've counted as "a lot" actually are, because none of them have thus far spoken up in this thread by my count.
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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Other then the people on this thread, and firedeamon, no body else even has blinked at the summoning stuff. A lot of players like the random fun that ''anything might show up''.
    Fine. I hold that it is bad policy that having to have a piece of a creature to summon it, and still not be able to have control what creatures you summon.
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    A 20th-level fighter should be able to break rainbows in half with their bare hands and then dual-wield the parts of the rainbow.

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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by Svata View Post
    Fine. I hold that it is bad policy that having to have a piece of a creature to summon it, and still not be able to have control what creatures you summon.
    Yeah - if you can't try to summon something unless you have a piece of it, why is there a chance that any random thing (which you probably don't have a piece of, based on the fact that you don't have infinite carrying capacity and probably haven't seen the majority of things) could get summoned?
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Logic is silly, and has little place in the real world.
    “Those who invalidate reason ought seriously to consider whether they argue against reason with or without reason; if with reason, then they establish the principles that they are laboring to dethrone: but if they argue without reason (which, in order to be consistent with themselves they must do), they are out of reach of rational conviction, nor do they deserve a rational argument.”
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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    A lot of stuff I keep reading saddens me really, especially regarding how you believe
    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Logic is silly, and has little place in the real world.
    But I will bring up this to drive my points home:

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    My houserules are made to:

    1. Stop and get rid of any player that might cause a problem. They see a house rule and leave and don't come back. This works well.

    2. Makes sure everyone in the game has fun. Nerfing things makes everyone equal. Making some things harder makes everyone equal.

    3. Make sure the game flows along easy. I fix a lot of the vague stuff, so there is no question about what can or can't be done.
    1: By all appearances, your rules tend to target people who have a decent amount of system mastery. Not necessarily only Optimisers, but anyone who has had a decent amount of experience in the game. Especially since you don't want to compromise. This would likely leave you with people who don't know the game, or simply willing to follow on your lead, so it becomes less a group experience, and you exerting control over them to whatever end you feel is most fun for the group.

    2: Speaking of fun. Making stuff Harder does not make things fun. Asking players not to go above a certain optimisation level so everyone can contribute makes things more fun. Making stuff harder is making stuff harder, which is not fun. You can only ask for equality, if you enforce it, you're over-riding someone fun for others.

    3: And this is the worst offender. If for example, the party encounters a physical challenge, such as a group of bandits, and the party's caster managed to keep a bit of Dire Bear from a previous fight, and decides to use it for the high natural AC and strength, but suddenly loses his mind and needs to act like a Monster. How the living heck does this make the game flow easy? The initial encounter of Bandits, is now bandits, and a wild Dire Bear. If you had made a balanced encounter for the entire party, and someone suddenly loses their mind becoming a larger challenge in the mix, how in the name of sanity is that making the game flow easier?
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    Default Re: Can you cheat at D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Yes, unlike every other person on this board, I don't always game with my best, best pals in the whole wide world.
    Thus!

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    My houserules are made to:

    1. Stop and get rid of any player that might cause a problem. They see a house rule and leave and don't come back. This works well.
    Obviously doesn't work and hasn't worked. You're stuck with these people you don't like, who also don't like your house rules. Your house rules are, presumably, not working - or possibly, you're misrepresenting these horrible people who come to your game.

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Well, I see nothing wrong with ''spells are full of wonder and mystery and strange unknown things might happen'', as opposed to (robot voice)* it is just like page 44 says*
    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    My houserules are made to:

    3. Make sure the game flows along easy. I fix a lot of the vague stuff, so there is no question about what can or can't be done.
    Emphasis mine. (I left the original full sentence there so there's no question about my missing your intent behind either statement)

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