Getting backstory and character development out of a reluctant player? (UPDATE)

[WarKitty]

So I'm running a campaign where backstory is very important. The plots I'm running start from the PC's backstories and work towards goals the players specified for their characters. The trouble is I have one player who just doesn't seem to want to deal with it. So for example I asked about family and she just said "eh I don't like to think about things like that." I've played with her as a DM and I know the way she runs her games backstory is just sort of window dressing. It's not in my game. She plays very much like a stereotypical paladin, without as far as I can tell much motivation beyond "being good."

I'm getting a little frustrated because I feel like I'm ending up focusing all my attention on my other 3 players. But there's not much to do with my fourth player. And I'm worried that she's leaning too far towards a stereotypical paladin rather than a realistic character.

Any advice?

UPDATE: So after conferring with the forum for a bit, I think the problem is less the backstory and more that I feel like the character doesn't have enough development to mesh with the party well. The character seems to lack depth beyond "being a good guy" in ways the party doesn't always want to do - notably, most of the party is in favor of killing bad guys while this one wants to redeem the bad guys. I'm concerned that this is leading at best to a case of why would this party be together, and at worst spilling into PvP or the characters frustrating each other all the time. Player seems attached to this particular sort of character and not comfortable with not being able to "roleplay" the character she wants.

[RustyArmor]

Just down right tell her she will be getting less attention then the others for not having a back story. If she is fine with that I suppose you can just go with it. Forcing her to write a story will just make her upset or they will only make a half assed story or extremely silly background that will make you tear your hair out. I have players in same boat, I will do a lot of back ground events and most villains are often going to be people from their past. They don't seem to care to much about it and just like rolling the dice and kicking butt when fights come around the corner. Your player might be same way.

And if anything else can always just get a stick and poke her with it till she caves and writes the story up.

[WarKitty]

I'm a little worried because she seems to be somewhat bored and not really into the game. It's a setup that's really designed to interest and reward roleplayers. I'm worried that she's both playing her character in a not very interesting way (healer, though I'm trying to discourage that) and not really getting into the non-combat stuff we have available. And when she does RP she does it as the worst sort of paladin.

[Mr Beer]

You've identified what you think is the problem i.e. she's not interested in an in-depth RPG. She seems a bit half-hearted about it. I guess you can chat to her and see what she wants in a game but it might be that she's just not that into it.

Given the way you like to run the game and the fact that others seem happy, I would run it my way for them and not worry about it. Up to you though.

[nedz]

There's probably not much you can do "You can lead a horse to water ..."

It could be a play-style difference, in which case you're stuffed.

You could do things like introduce NPCs who know her in their backstories and just fill her in after the fact. "You recognise Tom from where you grew up ...". This might not go down too well though, especially if there is blow back.

Personally I'd just ignore it and just carry on — that's certainly what I've done in the past.

[Rater202]

Okay, what do you mean by "the worst sort of Paladin?"

Do you mean the "Holier than thou" atitude paladin, or the "Smite First, never ask questions" paladin?

If it's the first ain't nothin wrong with that. If it's the second, ask her why her character acts like that. If she just gives a eneric "She's Good, they're evil asnwer" then early on, introduce an NPC Paladin whose more of the "Smite only those who can not be saed from themselves" types.

Maybe someone who knows the PC.

Show her what a proper paladin is like

If she won't give a backstory out of character, make her give one in character. Hopefully force some character development into it while you're at it.

If that doesn't work, then she's probably not the type of person your game caters to.

[WarKitty]

Okay, what do you mean by "the worst sort of Paladin?"

Do you mean the "Holier than thou" atitude paladin, or the "Smite First, never ask questions" paladin?

If it's the first ain't nothin wrong with that. If it's the second, ask her why her character acts like that. If she just gives a eneric "She's Good, they're evil asnwer" then early on, introduce an NPC Paladin whose more of the "Smite only those who can not be saved from themselves" types.

Maybe someone who knows the PC.

Show her what a proper paladin is like

If she won't give a backstory out of character, make her give one in character. Hopefully force some character development into it while you're at it.

If that doesn't work, then she's probably not the type of person your game caters to.

The first, combined with a tendency to just expect the party to go along with her idea of how a good party should behave. And OOC complaints when they don't go along. That's the frustration - if she wants to play the try to save everyone possible type that's fine, but she doesn't seem interested in IC working it out with the party as much as expecting them to just fall in line.

[Thrudd]

I'm a little worried because she seems to be somewhat bored and not really into the game. It's a setup that's really designed to interest and reward roleplayers. I'm worried that she's both playing her character in a not very interesting way (healer, though I'm trying to discourage that) and not really getting into the non-combat stuff we have available. And when she does RP she does it as the worst sort of paladin.

I don't think there is much you can do. Let her play the way she wants and don't worry about it. So she plays as a generic supporting character in your stories instead of a main character, some players are fine with that.

It is difficult sometimes to reconcile varying play preferences in a group, and there is no simple solution. The thing to ask is not how to force her to play the way you like, but find out what she finds fun about an RPG and try to incorporate some of that into your game. That should help get her into the game more. Certain types of players simply won't be interested in anything but the fighting/dice rolling parts, others are only interested when they can get treasure and magic items and make their character more powerful. Some just want to explore a fantasy world and find new places and creatures.
Some players just never really get into the game, they are always sort of peripheral to the action and are just there because they want to hang out with their friends. You need to remind them when it's their turn, they are never fully paying attention. That's ok, let it be. Don't try to force anything, just let her roll her attacks and move on.

[valadil]

I think I run games similarly to you. I'm real big on backstory and using it in my games.

My first piece of advice is to take what you can get. Backstory is awesome because it lets you riff off of something the players create and put it back into the game, which lets them feel that much more involved and invested. But not everyone is able to sit down and write out a history. One of my players is mildly dyslexic and intimidated by writing, so he writes his adventures in comic form. Another didn't want to do homework but was happy to brainstorm while I took notes.

Anyway, it doesn't matter where the ideas come from or how much you get. Go fishing until you get something from the character you can put in the game. Then put it in the game. This delights most players, especially those who haven't gotten this treatment before. Those who don't like it probably aren't going to no matter how hard you try.

I'm getting a little frustrated because I feel like I'm ending up focusing all my attention on my other 3 players. But there's not much to do with my fourth player. And I'm worried that she's leaning too far towards a stereotypical paladin rather than a realistic character.

That's unfortunate but okay. Personally, I'm willing to cut players off in that situation. Last time I had a player like that, I spent half my prep time coming up for ideas for him and he ignored them all. The game went a lot better when I focused on the players who were participating. I felt bad about it, but I look at my prep time as an investment. I have to get some game play time out of each hour I spend prepping.

[WarKitty]

My biggest worry right now is the combined lack of backstory and rigid morality straightjacket are leading to a very inflexible character. And I don't think that's going to work very well. I think the player is getting frustrated because she feels like she can't "roleplay" when her character doesn't get to do what she wants, and without backstory I have little recourse to bait her into doing things.

[valadil]

My biggest worry right now is the combined lack of backstory and rigid morality straightjacket are leading to a very inflexible character. And I don't think that's going to work very well. I think the player is getting frustrated because she feels like she can't "roleplay" when her character doesn't get to do what she wants, and without backstory I have little recourse to bait her into doing things.

Here's a whacky idea. Would you consider writing a backstory for her and letting her play to it? I'd give her full veto power of course on that instead of striking something out of the story, she had to replace it with something equally compelling.

[JusticeZero]

If you do not provide a history, a history will be provided to you - probably at ridiculous times and out of nowhere. =)

Someone had a character in one game I was playing in who did not want to describe anything about their background when that was discussed in party. After a bit, it got interpreted as being secretive about their background. Then all of a sudden the heavies stepped out of the shadows when we were restocking in town with "Guido was mad when you skipped out of town! You'se got obligations!" and all of a sudden we got to deal with half an hour of trying to deal with the deep dark secret that that character had been hiding from us - that the player wasn't even aware of until then. Then we ended up running around trying to make the horrible thing they'd done before becoming an adventurer right..

[veti]

If you do not provide a history, a history will be provided to you - probably at ridiculous times and out of nowhere. =)

This. Have her long-lost brother turn up out of nowhere.

"But I don't have a long-lost brother!"
"Yeah, you didn't mention him, but you didn't mention anyone, so I took the liberty of making some up. Now..."

[WarKitty]

Here's a whacky idea. Would you consider writing a backstory for her and letting her play to it? I'd give her full veto power of course on that instead of striking something out of the story, she had to replace it with something equally compelling.

I think I'd need to find a solution to the goodness straight-jacket first. The main problem is that the way she's playing is very inflexible, in a way that's making her feel like she's prevented from roleplaying or has to resort to destructive actions. I think we're having a hard time with her feeling like she can roleplay because it seems like she's limited roleplaying to a particular way of behaving and doesn't want to do much when it's not relevant, and gets frustrated when it's prevented.

[Flashy]

This. Have her long-lost brother turn up out of nowhere.

"But I don't have a long-lost brother!"
"Yeah, you didn't mention him, but you didn't mention anyone, so I took the liberty of making some up. Now..."

As a player I would absolutely hate this. I hate writing backstories longer than one or two lines for my characters because I really enjoy the process of feeling the character out as they interact with the world around them. I wouldn't want to have to go beyond something along the lines of "Class from X, spent a few years bumming around the city of Y, wound up with Z reason to run into the rest of the party". I'm not interested in intricate histories or interacting with people from my character's personal background, because I frankly don't care very much what happened to my character before the start of play. If I were required to write a longer backstory I would leave it as deliberately boring as possible because I don't want my character to be anyone special except by virtue of what I have them do in the course of the game. Having a DM foist weird personal drama on me by fiat would irritate me to no end.

This doesn't mean I don't enjoy roleplaying, it just means I like to develop within the group and as a part of its dynamic with the world. I want my characters to grow as a part of the story of the entire party, not include the party in my character's story.

[jiriku]

I think I'd need to find a solution to the goodness straight-jacket first. The main problem is that the way she's playing is very inflexible, in a way that's making her feel like she's prevented from roleplaying or has to resort to destructive actions. I think we're having a hard time with her feeling like she can roleplay because it seems like she's limited roleplaying to a particular way of behaving and doesn't want to do much when it's not relevant, and gets frustrated when it's prevented.

In restrospect, paladin was probably a poor class choice for her. It's challenging for many people to roleplay, and the effects of doing it wrong are usually obnoxious to others.

When I have players who don't give me backstory, I give it to them, in a subtle way. The villain remembers you from a chance encounter years ago, one you had forgotten. The bard knows your hometown and thinks you must be just like stereotypical members of that town. A shopkeeper knew your father way back when, cuts you a special deal on prices, and wants to be your best friend. Basically, just have various NPCs latch onto the character like lampreys, until she's sufficiently dug into the world.

It might also be useful to introduce her to moral quandries. Put her in a situation where she has to choose between two evils, like saving the populace of either town A or town B, or needing to grant a pardon to one guilty criminal in order to obtain the testimony necessary to convict another one guilty of a different but equal crime. Reassure her that so long as her paladin tries to choose the best available option and acts with good intent, she's not going to fall. In fact, if she can surprise you and find a third, better way, she'll get bonus experience. Once she's had to make some difficult moral choices in character, introduce her to some NPCs who are doing ill... but doing so because they've had to make their own difficult moral choices. She might take the opportunity to grow her character into a deeper and more complex individual. And if not, then she's at least consistently roleplaying an individual who lacks the subtlety and judgment to make nuanced decisions or handle complex situations. And that's a type of personality too.

[WarKitty]

In restrospect, paladin was probably a poor class choice for her. It's challenging for many people to roleplay, and the effects of doing it wrong are usually obnoxious to others.

When I have players who don't give me backstory, I give it to them, in a subtle way. The villain remembers you from a chance encounter years ago, one you had forgotten. The bard knows your hometown and thinks you must be just like stereotypical members of that town. A shopkeeper knew your father way back when, cuts you a special deal on prices, and wants to be your best friend. Basically, just have various NPCs latch onto the character like lampreys, until she's sufficiently dug into the world.

It might also be useful to introduce her to moral quandries. Put her in a situation where she has to choose between two evils, like saving the populace of either town A or town B, or needing to grant a pardon to one guilty criminal in order to obtain the testimony necessary to convict another one guilty of a different but equal crime. Reassure her that so long as her paladin tries to choose the best available option and acts with good intent, she's not going to fall. In fact, if she can surprise you and find a third, better way, she'll get bonus experience. Once she's had to make some difficult moral choices in character, introduce her to some NPCs who are doing ill... but doing so because they've had to make their own difficult moral choices. She might take the opportunity to grow her character into a deeper and more complex individual. And if not, then she's at least consistently roleplaying an individual who lacks the subtlety and judgment to make nuanced decisions or handle complex situations. And that's a type of personality too.

She's not a paladin, and alignment doesn't even exist. And the main problem there is not her roleplaying that sort of character per se, but that she's complaining OOC and threatening to resort to PVP when other characters don't go along. So it's becoming a group dynamic problem where one character can't get along with other PC's who don't live up to her moral standards.

She's actually playing almost a vow of peace character, one who wants to save everyone she can. Trouble is not everyone else is on board with just letting bad guys go and hoping they repent (and don't come after the party), and she's resorting to then seeing them as evils to be opposed.

[Thrudd]

She's not a paladin, and alignment doesn't even exist. And the main problem there is not her roleplaying that sort of character per se, but that she's complaining OOC and threatening to resort to PVP when other characters don't go along. So it's becoming a group dynamic problem where one character can't get along with other PC's who don't live up to her moral standards.

She's actually playing almost a vow of peace character, one who wants to save everyone she can. Trouble is not everyone else is on board with just letting bad guys go and hoping they repent (and don't come after the party), and she's resorting to then seeing them as evils to be opposed.

Talk to her about having a character that can cooperate with the rest of the group. If she doesn't think her current character can compromise on these ideals, suggest retiring that character and let her make a new character which fits better with the group and is amenable to adventuring (which should have been a requirement in the first place). She certainly must be reminded not to take it personally OOC when the other players roleplay their characters and do not follow her characters' orders.

If her behavior is truly a disruption, making the game not enjoyable for the rest of you, then you need to give her an ultimatum. Role play this character differently, or she will be forced to leave the group and become an NPC.

[Coidzor]

The first, combined with a tendency to just expect the party to go along with her idea of how a good party should behave. And OOC complaints when they don't go along. That's the frustration - if she wants to play the try to save everyone possible type that's fine, but she doesn't seem interested in IC working it out with the party as much as expecting them to just fall in line.

That's pretty much exactly why you have a conversation with the players of Paladins before play starts. :/

I should hope that you and the others have made it abundantly clear that they're not going to kowtow to her because she decided to play a Pally.

She's not a paladin, and alignment doesn't even exist. And the main problem there is not her roleplaying that sort of character per se, but that she's complaining OOC and threatening to resort to PVP when other characters don't go along. So it's becoming a group dynamic problem where one character can't get along with other PC's who don't live up to her moral standards.

Yeah, if you can't get her to settle down by talking to her, she's in "last ditch effort before getting kicked" territory.

[WarKitty]

That's pretty much exactly why you have a conversation with the players of Paladins before play starts. :/

I should hope that you and the others have made it abundantly clear that they're not going to kowtow to her because she decided to play a Pally.



Yeah, if you can't get her to settle down by talking to her, she's in "last ditch effort before getting kicked" territory.

Again, not actually a paladin. At all. And alignment isn't even in play.

I think...the trouble I'm feeling is that I have a player who isn't very good at roleplaying. So I want her to tone it down, but I don't want to discourage her. I feel like she tried to adapt by picking a simple character concept and sticking to it. The trouble is that particular concept doesn't fit very well in a group dynamic, and she's having a hard time figuring out how to roleplay in a way that both works with the group and isn't a pushover.

It might also be interesting because the player is both threatening PvP and thinks her character is a *lot* better than it is...so I may just let that solve itself.

[Jay R]

"OK, I like the part of the character design you've done, but the character can't play until you finish. As soon as you send me the backstory, and tell me how it will affect your play, you can rejoin the game."

Am I serious? That depends. Are you serious about wanting a backstory from her? Because this is the only way you will get one.

Yes - it's pretty severe. But nothing else will work.

So is it worth doing this to you?

[WarKitty]

"OK, I like the part of the character design you've done, but the character can't play until you finish. As soon as you send me the backstory, and tell me how it will affect your play, you can rejoin the game."

Am I serious? That depends. Are you serious about wanting a backstory from her? Because this is the only way you will get one.

Yes - it's pretty severe. But nothing else will work.

So is it worth doing this to you?

It's a tradeoff deal. I can live without a backstory - but no backstory means the character is less integral to the game, and no complaining when other PC's get the focus. Also, I do want her to roleplay better at least in getting along, but I'm not sure how to communicate that exactly to a player who really does seem to think what she's doing is good roleplay.

Edit: I think that's my main concern. I feel like my trying to get the player to roleplay is resulting in a bad caricature rather than a well-developed character. But I also feel like the player is convinced she's just roleplaying her character, and I don't want to push back too hard because I'm worried what's going to come across is "don't roleplay" and just end up starting a big fuss because the player feels like she's not being given a chance.

I'm also worried that this may be a case of a player who puts too much of herself into her characters. I know it's a natural roleplaying move, but I feel like she doesn't want to see her character as "compromising her morals" by killing people. But it's not helpful in this setup.

[Coidzor]

Again, not actually a paladin. At all. And alignment isn't even in play.

I think...the trouble I'm feeling is that I have a player who isn't very good at roleplaying. So I want her to tone it down, but I don't want to discourage her. I feel like she tried to adapt by picking a simple character concept and sticking to it. The trouble is that particular concept doesn't fit very well in a group dynamic, and she's having a hard time figuring out how to roleplay in a way that both works with the group and isn't a pushover.

It might also be interesting because the player is both threatening PvP and thinks her character is a *lot* better than it is...so I may just let that solve itself.

Yeah, I saw that and didn't care to edit it in with the other edits. Sounds unfortunate that she didn't pick a Pally so that you could've had that talk sooner and nipped it in the bud. Ah well.

Nah, this is more than just being bad at roleplaying, this is acting like a primadonna from how you've described her behavior, what with expecting everyone to go along with her all the time without even having to convince the other players that her ideas are entertaining or good.

Yeah, that's not going to really solve the problem. Getting rid of that character or heavily rewriting it is almost certainly part of the overall solution, but if you just have the rest of the party kill her character she's just going to try to get revenge IC for an OOC issue.

Edit: Have you shown her "decide to react differently" in this article by The Giant?

[WarKitty]

Yeah, I saw that and didn't care to edit it in with the other edits. Sounds unfortunate that she didn't pick a Pally so that you could've had that talk sooner and nipped it in the bud. Ah well.

Nah, this is more than just being bad at roleplaying, this is acting like a primadonna from how you've described her behavior, what with expecting everyone to go along with her all the time without even having to convince the other players that her ideas are entertaining or good.

Yeah, that's not going to really solve the problem. Getting rid of that character or heavily rewriting it is almost certainly part of the overall solution, but if you just have the rest of the party kill her character she's just going to try to get revenge IC for an OOC issue.

Edit: Have you shown her "decide to react differently" in this article by The Giant?

I don't think it's really a primadonna problem. It's more, well, she sort of has one "thing" that's her character's schtick - healing. That's what her character is about. Trouble is the rest of the party doesn't really like her throwing around heals all the time, and without it she's just sort of got nothing going. Plus I think it's mixed up with her OOC sense of morality and conviction that she's playing a good character and this is the good thing to do so she has to stick to it at all costs. But then she's frustrated because all her roleplaying was doing that one thing and if she can't do it there's no roleplaying going on.

[Coidzor]

I don't think it's really a primadonna problem. It's more, well, she sort of has one "thing" that's her character's schtick - healing. That's what her character is about. Trouble is the rest of the party doesn't really like her throwing around heals all the time, and without it she's just sort of got nothing going. Plus I think it's mixed up with her OOC sense of morality and conviction that she's playing a good character and this is the good thing to do so she has to stick to it at all costs. But then she's frustrated because all her roleplaying was doing that one thing and if she can't do it there's no roleplaying going on.

So, wait, her head would explode if you Helm of Opposite Alignment'd her character?

[JusticeZero]

Yet another reason I wish the iconic medic would curl up and die. Is there a religious order that sort've dovetails into their general focus of preserving lives in the world? Regardless of how well it fits, that's a fairly interesting chunk of RP that you are describing mixed up with your complaining about not RPing. Have one of them turn up talking about their common ties and suck them into a crazy subplot of the order. Justify it, codify it, tie it to the setting. Then offer up some role models within the order. Don't just complain that it's not the kind of RP you are used to.

[BWR]

Step 1: Talk to her. Explain that roleplaying is a group effort and one player sabotaging everything because "it's what my character would do" is not conducive to a good gaming experience.
Step 2: talk to the group. See if they are willing to modify their characters and stuff to accomodate the problem player. If you can't get her to go along with you in one go, try doing it incrementally. Start off with what she's comfortable with and slowly try to coax her off the beaten path.
Step 3: 'pretty please'. Explain why a backstory will help you and the others. Make it seem as though she's doing you a favor, not that you are pushing her to do something she isn't interested in. (basically, the bigger deal you make of your gratitude and the more you exaggerate amount of inconvenience you are putting the other to compared to the 'size' of the favor, the more someone is willing to help you).
Step 4. Carrot(cake). Don't just say you need a backstory for some nebulous reasons, give her obvious gains. Something like "bonus to social rolls with Group X" or "automatic success on some important task with Group Y" or "bonus in situations X gained when background is used actively and creatively"

As for writing/adjusting background for her, some players are OK with that, some aren't. It's important to know what type your player is before you try this.

[prufock]

Any advice?

1 - This may not be her style of game. TALK TO HER. Ask her why she seems disinterested, what she likes about the game, what she doesn't like about the game. Get specific. If she's content being a background player, let her do so as long as she's having fun. Tell her you'd like her to argue with the party IN CHARACTER rather than out, because it actually gives her character some focus.

2 - Get specific about backstory. Not everyone wants to write a 10-page opus of how their character came to be. Not every adventurer has to have a tragic past; some just wake up one day and decide "I think I'd like to be an adventurer."

What you need to do for this person, I think, is have a simple questionnaire with 10-12 questions that can be answered in one or two lines. "What event made you become an adventurer?" "How did you get your abilities?" etc. Keep it simple so that a couple lines are all that are needed.

[tensai_oni]

This sounds like the problem is the player, not the character. I love roleplaying scenarios with moral conflict or inflexibility, but such conflict happens IC, not OOC. Out of character the whole party is in and having fun with it. Here it sounds like the player wants to boss the rest of the party around.

But here's the thing, you provided us with very scarce detail on that. Maybe the player really is being a stick in the mud paladin-like type while the rest of the party is more flexible. Or maybe she wrote her character with the assumption that it will be a heroic campaign, while the rest of the player characters are more morally questionable or even outright villainous - in which case I can't blame her for being irritated. Provide us with more details and examples of what caused friction in the group, please.

Sounds like lack of backstory is least of concerns here. I wouldn't force a backstory on her (as several other people said in the thread, I'd HATE that if done to me), but I'd ask her for one, even if just a very minimalistic one. But it doesn't matter in the long go because player characters should be defined by their actions in the present, not the past (though the past may offer interesting plot hooks). Her problem is that the character doesn't do enough in the present, just heal. Ask her if she's okay with that, and does she want a rebuild that will allow her to do that AND also contribute to the game in some other way. I don't know what mechanics you use but I assume that is possible.

And once again, I ask for examples of what situations caused conflict in the party.

[The Mormegil]

Getting backstory and character development out of a reluctant player?
[...]
Any advice?

Don't.

Spoiler

Show

Seriously, don't. You don't want to pressure her or force her to play a way she doesn't want to play. Let it go. I made that mistake in the past, just... let it be. If she has a problem, hopefully she'll come up to you and talk about it, and then you can figure out a solution together. But until she says she has a problem, don't do anything. Roll with it.