How to handle an unexpectedly popular villain.

[Lakaz]

Over the past few weeks i've been running a storyline based around a... guess you could call him a supernatural weapons dealer. The first part of the storyline was supposed to focus on a series of smaller villains, given power/ancient artifacts/big guns by the BBEG so they become major threats who the group need to take down. Each minor villain was to last 3 or 4 sessions (It's a VERY long term storyline and we get sessions quite frequently), and then get killed.

The problem is, that one of these minor villains has become unexpectedly popular. Partly because the sessions covered less ground than expected so it took 8 to defeat them rather than 3 or 4 (Which is about 2 months investment), and also because it was simply a threatening, interesting villain, which the group haven't had in a while (Due to lack of anybody willing to GM for the past several months).

Our next session, in a bit over a week, is when i planned to kill off this minor villain, but i'm reconsidering. Should i give them a bit more of the spotlight, let them fight on for longer, or kill them off like i planned to so the main storyline should go ahead? I'm really quite stumped as to what to do here. I want to avoid THEM becoming the BBEG and the weapons dealer getting very little attention, and i'm worried if i let the minor villain survive for too long, that could end up happening, but i don't like the idea of ending a popular villain quite so quickly as i am either.

Help appreciated.

[Cikomyr]

A way of going at it is to alter his agenda from "generic minor villain" into something with deeper impact and insight, so he has a reason/method of escaping, evading, etc... Basically, give him a strong reason why he's different than the rest of the baddies the PCs have killed recently. Give him depth.

You could always have him "unexpectedly survive" the showdown with the PCs, but I know many PCs finds this to be a bit of a cheap cop-out. Unless you make the fight in an interesting environment (on top of a skyscrapper, dangling over a bottomless chasm) that could explain his "defeated, but survived" (nothing better than the baddy falling off a cliff to promote ambiguity).

Ultimately, you do not have to wreck your overall story to find a sweet peg for this popular minor villain. Convert him into either being the BBEG's main lieutenant, with his own agendas/motivations. Or you could have him turn into an unexpected rival to the BBEG with his newfound power. You could make him the "ambiguous ally" of the PCs; the obviously bad guy that they sometimes turn to for support, because while he's bad, he's not as bad as the BBEG.

Popular villains are precious, and you should preserve them rather than dispose of them. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have them die off: just make it significant and story-powerful, instead of "just another boss fight".

What if that Villain is the only one with the power to pierce through the BBEG's invincible defenses? Maybe the PCs would have to convert him to their side?


There's a lot of things you can do with that

[Tengu_temp]

If your players like a minor villain, then let that villain escape when you planned him to die (possibly in such a way that the PCs don't know he's not really dead), and then make him appear later. Don't make him take over as the BBEG, just have the guy show up a few more times and cause trouble before he gets killed off for real.

[Lakaz]

The "Minor Villain" in question, i should've specified, was a whole cult. The group've been facing this cult for the past few rounds, and so it's perhaps tougher to set up a "Unexpected survival". If you raid a cult base and kill all the cultists, it's hard to justify their return.
On the other hand, i could simply say members of the cult exist elsewhere. You gave me an idea, actually, that perhaps the cultist leaders die in the massacre, letting the BBEG install puppet leaders, allowing for their return later as his more directly controlled minions.
Thanks fer the help Cikomyr (And also Tengu_Temp).

...Well this was a short thread, then.

[TandemChelipeds]

Oh, that's easy, though. Clearly, this is only one cell, and the cult has operatives planted all over the place.

[Cikomyr]

Oh, that's easy, though. Clearly, this is only one cell, and the cult has operatives planted all over the place.

A good villain has to seem defeatable. Being burned constantly through the ever plot point of "oh, they had hidden operatives" gets more annoying than the Nth time the Doctor had destroyed "the last remaining pocket of Daleks". Eventually it crosses from "ways to keep the threat alive" into "cheap co-out to keep popular villains".


Do not be afraid to allow utter defeat for that group. But make it... epic. A REALLY popular villain can only meet its inevitable demise through an appropriately EPIC showdown/storyline. Make the "endgame" a story worth remembering.


the best way of making sure the villains sticks around, however, is find a way to make it less... uber-evil that needs to be dealt with right away. Add shades of grey to their existence. Find a situation when the cult has to deal with the PCs as... reluctant allies, and a temporary partnership has to exist. That's basically how Piccolo and Vegeta eventually joined the cast of protagonists. It's an overused, yet perfectly classic method.

[Mr Beer]

Yeah, I would keep him around and create situations where he sometimes has goals that intersect with the PCs...and sometimes not. You could definitely use him to betray the party in some ultra-douchey manner down the track, if you're into that.

[DrBurr]

A good villain has to seem defeatable. Being burned constantly through the ever plot point of "oh, they had hidden operatives" gets more annoying than the Nth time the Doctor had destroyed "the last remaining pocket of Daleks". Eventually it crosses from "ways to keep the threat alive" into "cheap co-out to keep popular villains".


Do not be afraid to allow utter defeat for that group. But make it... epic. A REALLY popular villain can only meet its inevitable demise through an appropriately EPIC showdown/storyline. Make the "endgame" a story worth remembering.


the best way of making sure the villains sticks around, however, is find a way to make it less... uber-evil that needs to be dealt with right away. Add shades of grey to their existence. Find a situation when the cult has to deal with the PCs as... reluctant allies, and a temporary partnership has to exist. That's basically how Piccolo and Vegeta eventually joined the cast of protagonists. It's an overused, yet perfectly classic method.

Where utter defeat means the death of the cult how exactly can they pull a heel-face turn? If the goal is to keep this Cult alive somehow, so they could maybe team up with the party latter or become a reoccurring villain, the only options really are some escaped or this was only one cell of the cult.

Making this one cell of a massive network is different then what Doctor Who does which seems to be the mass extinction of the Daleks every other season. As long as you don't overuse this trope and haven't established this is the only church it works fine.

Party wipes out current cult threat to NPCtown and discover your True Villian, cue later on where Cult wants revenge or to recover religious artifact stolen from their chapel by the party. I feel that any actions good or bad have consequences down the line and slaughtering a Cult of whatever means you've made an enemy with their fellow believers and allies

You could even pull a we're not all "evil" by having the Cult killed by the Party be a Radical sect which the main Cult (also evil because evil isn't a big happy family) is glad where wiped out and now want the Party to help them eliminate similar threats to their denomination which could include the Big Bad, hows that for Shades of Gray?

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Do what the tv series Bugs did with the character of Jean-Daniel - have him surrender at a certain point, so the PCs can capture him (and so they get "the win"), he gets imprisoned, but eventually winds up carrying on his activities from prison, manipulating the prison governors and wardens, his former fellow cult members, and the PCs, so that he wins whatever they do.

[Cikomyr]

Where utter defeat means the death of the cult how exactly can they pull a heel-face turn? If the goal is to keep this Cult alive somehow, so they could maybe team up with the party latter or become a reoccurring villain, the only options really are some escaped or this was only one cell of the cult.

Making this one cell of a massive network is different then what Doctor Who does which seems to be the mass extinction of the Daleks every other season. As long as you don't overuse this trope and haven't established this is the only church it works fine.

Party wipes out current cult threat to NPCtown and discover your True Villian, cue later on where Cult wants revenge or to recover religious artifact stolen from their chapel by the party. I feel that any actions good or bad have consequences down the line and slaughtering a Cult of whatever means you've made an enemy with their fellow believers and allies

You could even pull a we're not all "evil" by having the Cult killed by the Party be a Radical sect which the main Cult (also evil because evil isn't a big happy family) is glad where wiped out and now want the Party to help them eliminate similar threats to their denomination which could include the Big Bad, hows that for Shades of Gray?

There's nothing wrong with having "a few surviving cells" after destroying the cult. My point was not to abuse that plot device. For example: allow the PCs to find "the List of all active cells" eventually, and give them the opportunity to wipe them all out in a sufficiently epic manner.

But again; keeping them on the greyish side of morality has probably more interesting outcomes on the long-term.

Do what the tv series Bugs did with the character of Jean-Daniel - have him surrender at a certain point, so the PCs can capture him (and so they get "the win"), he gets imprisoned, but eventually winds up carrying on his activities from prison, manipulating the prison governors and wardens, his former fellow cult members, and the PCs, so that he wins whatever they do.

Also known as the HYDRA Initiative

[Red Fel]

A good villain has to seem defeatable. Being burned constantly through the ever plot point of "oh, they had hidden operatives" gets more annoying than the Nth time the Doctor had destroyed "the last remaining pocket of Daleks". Eventually it crosses from "ways to keep the threat alive" into "cheap co-out to keep popular villains".

Completely agree with this. Never plan for a villain to be "killed off," or to "survive" for that matter - his fate should understandably be in the hands of the PCs. If they want to kill capture, or join him, that's their prerogative. Obviously, you shouldn't give them an easy task of it, but if they don't want a villain (or villainous organization) dead, or they do a sloppy job of it, don't just throw the baddy under a bus and have it done with. If the PCs can't or won't do the job themselves, make them pay for their -

Sorry. Right. You get the idea. I also agree with the point above, that the "end" of a villain (or villainous organization) should be proportionate to the players' enjoyment of that villain. In other words, a popular villain needs a climactic ending. So get on that. That said...

Do what the tv series Bugs did with the character of Jean-Daniel - have him surrender at a certain point, so the PCs can capture him (and so they get "the win"), he gets imprisoned, but eventually winds up carrying on his activities from prison, manipulating the prison governors and wardens, his former fellow cult members, and the PCs, so that he wins whatever they do.

This is also an option, and happens to be one of my favorite things to do with a popular villain. Unless the PCs kill the baddies off - and when a cult is involved, that's actually really hard to do - you can expect at least one to survive. The HYDRA method mentioned above ("Cut off one head, two more take its place,") is one option, but another is the villain-in-plain-sight.

Audiences love the unrepentant monster who connives even from imprisonment, taking refuge in audacity. The smirking sociopath who will gladly help the PCs, if only because it amuses him to do so, knowing that his machinations reach far beyond the walls of his cell. All it takes is one capable, manipulative cult member (or leader) to survive, to be imprisoned or sealed away or captured or what-have-you, to keep the players coming back for more. Take him to the Capital, or the Mage-Prison, or the Otyugh Hole, or any high-security facility you like. Let the PCs come visit whenever they want. He'll be there, smirking, enjoying comfort far beyond what a prisoner should enjoy, treating the Warden as a servant rather than as a jailor, and knowing far too much about the outside world.

[Cikomyr]

This is also an option, and happens to be one of my favorite things to do with a popular villain. Unless the PCs kill the baddies off - and when a cult is involved, that's actually really hard to do - you can expect at least one to survive. The HYDRA method mentioned above ("Cut off one head, two more take its place,") is one option, but another is the villain-in-plain-sight.

I wasn't talking about "Cut one head". I was talking about "hiding in plain sight".

You haven't been following up the recent Marvel cinematic stuff, eh?

[gnewman]

If the party likes him so much, why not have him be betrayed by one of his lackeys and the party needs to find the new boss.

Itll maybe put a fire in the party to hunt him/her down and destroy that which stole their favorite bad guy.

Thats my thought. =]

[elliott20]

whoa there, just because you LIKE the villain doesn't mean you should keep them around indefinitely. The only reason you keep them alive is so that you can use them for something else that you think they would be more appropriate for. Otherwise, it's a total cop out. If he's going to die, let him die, but let him go with a bang!

[Pocket lint]

I'd say, let him find out the players are coming and make his excuses.

If they're powerful enough to take him and his underlings on - well, "guess I have an urgent errand to take care of". Cue taking his box of cash and departing for another time. Set deathtraps etc, leave a taunting letter and watch the carnage from a safe distance.


Dear adventurers,
That dragon I had chained up a while ago? Not so chained up any longer.
Have fun

BBEG

[John Longarrow]

Several things you can do with a cult that are really fun (and based on real life) are
1) They fund humanitarian actions (read take care or orphans, the old, widowed, lame, establish schools, churches, and hospitals)
2) They have varied sources of funding (smuggling, merchants, own agriculture and ranches, ect)
3) They lend money to supporters (to start businesses, to repair damaged property, pay doweries/schooling)
4) They become involved in local politics and government (Sheriff/Mayor, elderman, Tax collector, customs inspectors)
5) They establish multiple retreats and bolt holes.

Taking out a cult becomes very difficult when the local populace sees a big benefit from keeping them around. This is also how some major real world terror networks and narco-syndicates became such powerful forces in their area. Just about ANYONE can be connected in one way or another.

[Cikomyr]

Several things you can do with a cult that are really fun (and based on real life) are
1) They fund humanitarian actions (read take care or orphans, the old, widowed, lame, establish schools, churches, and hospitals)
2) They have varied sources of funding (smuggling, merchants, own agriculture and ranches, ect)
3) They lend money to supporters (to start businesses, to repair damaged property, pay doweries/schooling)
4) They become involved in local politics and government (Sheriff/Mayor, elderman, Tax collector, customs inspectors)
5) They establish multiple retreats and bolt holes.

Taking out a cult becomes very difficult when the local populace sees a big benefit from keeping them around. This is also how some major real world terror networks and narco-syndicates became such powerful forces in their area. Just about ANYONE can be connected in one way or another.

Ahh.. the classic "Keystone Villain". Agreed. Let's say the cult is doing incredible societal work (both for the pragmatic aspect of "doing good" as well as promoting their agenda) that, if you destroy the cult, might throw society into disarray..

Let's say, for example, that the Cult has started to care for all homeless people in a non-nefarious method (GENUINELY non-nefarious; it's merely a way to make themselves somewhat essential to society). This led to the closing up of most shelters and communal soups in cities around the country, and basically the cult is the last remaining (and yet, 100% effective) social net to care for the homeless.

If you take out the cult, you'd end up with no one, not even charity organizations (who all have started caring for other society's ills) to care for the homeless all around the country. It not necessarily "holding society hostage", but basically making the cult an essential part of modern society that the PCs can no longer afford to take out without major consequences.


Don't take this example literally. Maybe it's just not in the cult's character to take care of homeless. But nevertheless, you can still make the argument that the cult is providing a superbe service to society that will cause pain and suffering if they disappeared. Here's a few idea of non-controversial societal help they could provide. Better just pick 1, and make sure it.. "make sense"

- Managed to mobilize blood donation on a perfect degree, making sure blood banks are never in need anymore.
- Manage to secure housing/appartments for families who fallen on hard time. Reducing degrees of child poverty/houselessness to nill
- Help the Chicago Cubs scout their best talent, making the team competitive at last

[Storm_Of_Snow]

This is also an option, and happens to be one of my favorite things to do with a popular villain. Unless the PCs kill the baddies off - and when a cult is involved, that's actually really hard to do - you can expect at least one to survive. The HYDRA method mentioned above ("Cut off one head, two more take its place,") is one option, but another is the villain-in-plain-sight.

Audiences love the unrepentant monster who connives even from imprisonment, taking refuge in audacity. The smirking sociopath who will gladly help the PCs, if only because it amuses him to do so, knowing that his machinations reach far beyond the walls of his cell. All it takes is one capable, manipulative cult member (or leader) to survive, to be imprisoned or sealed away or captured or what-have-you, to keep the players coming back for more. Take him to the Capital, or the Mage-Prison, or the Otyugh Hole, or any high-security facility you like. Let the PCs come visit whenever they want. He'll be there, smirking, enjoying comfort far beyond what a prisoner should enjoy, treating the Warden as a servant rather than as a jailor, and knowing far too much about the outside world.

IMO, HYDRA's more like an underground/resistance cell structure - you don't know who's involved, and they're always covertly recruiting and training up people, so, unless you manage to bring down the head guy, find all the people that report into him, and bring them and their subordinates down, you'll never root the whole thing out.

As for the PCs visiting the prisoner, he could live to their expectations, having a plain cell with a few simple adornments (a couple of battered books from the prison library, a hand drawn sketch and so on) that he sits in when outsiders come and visit, wearing the normal restraints and whatever else, but also having a much more ornate and luxurious suite of rooms elsewhere the he uses the rest of the time.

[magellan]

the only options really are some escaped or this was only one cell of the cult.

There is a third option:
It's a cult. Some folks will know about them, but not be members, propably the cult has materials on how to be a proper cultist.

So after the cult is defeated someone somewhere has a sad, because he was justs about to join, and decides to start their own branch.
Or they discover the cultists "how-to" manual and really like it and start their own.