Iron Heroes - One man flanking

[squishycube]

My group started playing Iron Heroes a while back, and we have been wrestling with the AoO rules ever since. It is supposed to be simpler than in D&D (and it actually is) but it can still be quite confusing.

One issue my GM is not happy about, but is allowed by the rules, is that slow (30 ft.) moving characters can flank by themselves. He feels that this option should be limited to tumblers and fast movers.

Consider this situation:

The turn is to the creature represented by the green elipse. He moves around the creature represented by the red elipse (not provoking any AoO's, he only enters one threatened square; the Iron Heroes rules are different people) and then he attacks, flanking on his own (whatever benefit that might give, be it just the +2, or more).

My GM feels a slow character should not be able to do this, but I have some things to add.

1. You have to start your turn next to your opponent, in my opinion this is almost always A Bad Thing.
2. If this is not the only enemy, it is quit unlikely your route is undisturbed: you move 30 feet in a large circle around your enemy. If it is your only enemy: why are you bothering? You have party members to flank with?

What do you think we should do? Note that we play on hexes, but its pretty much the same on squares, except it is only possible if you start on a square diagonal to your opponent.

[Yakk]

The problem is that you get lots of movement while your opponent doesn't get any.

Split the turn into two phases. In each phase, you get half of your move. You can do an attack during only one of your two phases.

...

Another idea is to have a cost to change directions rapidly. Simply charge the character 1 unit of movement every time, after the first, they change the direction they are moving.

That is probably simplest.

So, in your diagram, the "turn" cost would be charged at (with the green guy starting at square zero):
0->1 is free (not worth remembering which way you moved last turn)
1->2 is a +1 cost turn.
2->3 is a +1 cost turn
3->4 is strait
4->5 is a +1 cost turn
5->6 is a +1 cost turn

So that move took 10 move units instead of 6 move units. This restricts it to a high-move character.

Note that turning rules don't need facing -- you just pay 1 extra unit whenever your last move and your current move aren't in the same direction.

[Dausuul]

Honestly, it doesn't bug me much. Consider that in taking this maneuver, you start and end your turn adjacent to your foe, but don't get to make a full attack on him--you're giving up your iterative attacks and/or off-hand attacks in order to get the flanking bonus, which is a poor trade-off in most cases. And he still gets to full attack you.

If you're a sneak attack specialist, of course, then it can come in handy. But there are already lots of ways for Iron Heroes sneak attack monkeys to get their sneak attacks in. And sneak attack monkeys do best when dual-wielding, anyway, so they also lose out if they use the one-man flank tactic.

[oriong]

How exactly is he flanking on his own? That doesn't work at all unless iron heroes rules are very different when it comes to flanking.

[Were-Sandwich]

They are. 10

[squishycube]

How exactly is he flanking on his own? That doesn't work at all unless iron heroes rules are very different when it comes to flanking.

Long story short: if you get into the squares from which two attackers would flank in one round, you flank on your own.

EDIT: I think it's a great mechanic, I like it very much.
Yakk, I like your ideas, very original! I think I can make the second idea work with some tinkering.

[Dausuul]

By the way, did anyone else read the title of this thread and think of "Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome?"

"TWO MEN ENTER! ONE MAN FLANKS!"
"TWO MEN ENTER! ONE MAN FLANKS!"

[oriong]

So the problem isn't so much that the flanking option is available, just that it's available for someone who is unexceptional in terms of speed (anyone with a 30 ft movement and no encumberance) and mobility?

[Matthew]

Seems fine to me. Iron Heroes Rules might be quite different (I'm not familiar), but heavily armoured Characters aren't really very much slower than unarmoured tumbling jerks (I *hate* Tumbling, I should probably point out).

[Yakk]

Note that a rapid tight circle around the target, with the +1 move unit to make a turn, takes 5 move units -- but it exposes you to AoO under Iron Heros rules, I believe.

You could even allow X ranks of tumble to grant you 1 free direction change per round (say, every +5 to tumble is 1 free direction change).

[Mike_G]

I DM Iron Heroes and I wouldn't allow it. The flanking bonus is supposed to represent the fact that the enemy is splitting his attention between threats to both sides and is therefore less able to defend. If you just run around to his back, with no threat remaining infront of him, he can just turn with you and keep his focus on you, thus never giving you an advantage.

Use common sense and screw the catgirls.

[Matthew]

Interesting. Would you allow it for 'fast' Characters or is that just a general 'that's not an appropriate interpretation of the rules' thing? I wouldn't be inclined to allow this, but I see no reason to differentiate between slower and faster characters with regard to its implementation.

[Mike_G]

Interesting. Would you allow it for 'fast' Characters or is that just a general 'that's not an appropriate interpretation of the rules' thing? I wouldn't be inclined to allow this, but I see no reason to differentiate between slower and faster characters with regard to its implementation.

I wouldn't allow it at all, since flanking should only work if you force your enemy to divide his attention. Unless you are on both sides of him at once, I wouldn't allow it, fast or slow.

If you've ever fought for real, you know that nobody can run around you and hit you in the back unless you don't turn to face him. This might be because his buddy is trying to stab you in the front, but other than that, it just doesn't make sense to soloflank.

[Matthew]

I quite agree, though Flanking in D&D is silly, since being flanked by two or eight makes little difference. I could imagine this being mechanically okay, but from a versimillitude point of view, it would be hard to justify.

[squishycube]

I DM Iron Heroes and I wouldn't allow it. The flanking bonus is supposed to represent the fact that the enemy is splitting his attention between threats to both sides and is therefore less able to defend. If you just run around to his back, with no threat remaining infront of him, he can just turn with you and keep his focus on you, thus never giving you an advantage.

Use common sense and screw the catgirls.

I am surprised by your choice of words, it seems to imply that you wouldn't allow one man flanking if it was possible. But the standard IH rules already do allow this, it's not a houserule.

Thanks for the input everyone, I think it will help my group to make a balanced decision.

[daggaz]

By the way, did anyone else read the title of this thread and think of "Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome?"

"TWO MEN ENTER! ONE MAN FLANKS!"
"TWO MEN ENTER! ONE MAN FLANKS!"

No, but Matrix came to mind..

[Mike_G]

I am surprised by your choice of words, it seems to imply that you wouldn't allow one man flanking if it was possible. But the standard IH rules already do allow this, it's not a houserule.

I didn't mean to imply that.

I meant to state it outright.

I disagree with the rule, and would disallow it, regardless of its inclusion in the core rules, as I feel it violates the intent of the flanking bonus, which is the advantage to an attacker against a defender who must divide his attention.

[TheOOB]

I could imagine a feat/special ability allow you to gain flanking solo, but doing so by movement seems really silly. It does help make rogues more competent fighters though.

[Thiel]

There is no rogues in IH
There is thieves and executors though.

[Mike_G]

I could imagine a feat/special ability allow you to gain flanking solo, but doing so by movement seems really silly. It does help make rogues more competent fighters though.

Feint, and Improved Feint accomplish more or less the same thing. The fluff for that works, though, since the idea is you distract the bad guy so you can make a more precise attack. The fluff behind "I'll just run around you and hit you from behind, thus gaining my flanking bonus and Sneak Attack damage, despite the fact that there is no earthly reason for you not to spin in place and face me" is silly.

[Yakk]

I dunno, an acrobatic character rolling past their attacker and hitting them before they can turn around has some fluff value...

It shouldn't be so easy that a non-acrobat can pull it off, however.

[Quietus]

Regarding tumbling, my DMs usually rule that if you can tumble through an opponent's space, you can make an attack that would gain your sneak attack damage, though I don't believe any of us give the full flanking - it's just a DC 25 tumble check to move through their space, followed by an attack.

[TheOOB]

Feint, and Improved Feint accomplish more or less the same thing. The fluff for that works, though, since the idea is you distract the bad guy so you can make a more precise attack. The fluff behind "I'll just run around you and hit you from behind, thus gaining my flanking bonus and Sneak Attack damage, despite the fact that there is no earthly reason for you not to spin in place and face me" is silly.

Feinting is not a replacement for flanking. When you flank you get a sneak attack on every attack, which can be several attacks, especially if your TWF. Feinting only gives you a sneak attack on your first attack.

[Fazzumar]

Is there no one who finds this rule a perfect extra strategic option? I really like this rule because it is on of the few rules new in Iron Heroes that makes your position on the battle field a strategic choice. Our sessions work with a hex battle grid and this rule makes sure you set up a position as a group, not as a lone character.

I hear the statement "everyone can do this every time", but that works only if you fight only one on one battle’s every time. When a group fights against another group then by placing yourself close enough to your friend you are protecting your friend from the rogue's possibility to sneak attack him with this move.

Even as people say it gives not enough fluff or i just don't think it will work in the real world, i say that this makes Iron Heroes a bit more strategic then D&D battle field. And if i look at all the extra battle field options and the feat options than it looks like a rule that fits in nicely.

[BlueWizard]

D&D solves this by allow enemy AoO's.

[squishycube]

BlueWizard, I (and most other posters I presume) am aware of the D&D rules. I have played D&D for quite some time. Iron Heroes is also based on the d20 rules, it also allows AoO's, but they work differently.