Warhammer 40k Tabletop XXI: Preferred Enemy (Dice)

[Cheesegear]

But what else could I run him with?

He's Jump Infantry. That gives him a 12" move / re-roll Charge, and he can Deep Strike.

As you said, Deep Striking with Deathmarks is pretty great for a gimmick unit, but, once you still the unit that they're aimed at, the 'gimmick' becomes fairly average...Although re-rolling 1s into Rends is always great.

Praetorians are okay, unfortunately, they lack Invulnerables and/or a 2+ Save and that's pretty harsh 40 point per model unit, and, quite frankly, for 40 points per model you should really be bringing Wraiths.

Heavy/Destroyers, again, are forty points each. They are 40 points each. That's as many as four tens. And that's terrible. They already carry Preferred Enemy and don't gain anything - offensively speaking - by adding a Destroyer Lord. If you want them to be more tanky, add more of them.

Which brought me to Tomb Blades.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Tomb Blades, save for the fact that they aren't Wraiths. That's it. They have the same Toughness as Destroyers for half the cost, and both units cap out at the same number of models. Destroyers have Preferred Enemy, but that doesn't matter because your Lord is passing it to them anyway. Twin-Linked Gauss Blasters are far better than Gauss Cannons except in the most backwards of metas where everyone is still playing Marines from 5th Ed.

It's not a bad unit compared to Destroyers or Praetorians, but it is a bad unit compared to Wraiths or Scarabs. However Scarabs immediately start sucking when your meta graduates to 7th Edition and all of the Marine players are suddenly fielding double Thunderfires.

[bluntpencil]

Cheesegear, regarding the Crimson Fist list... would upgrading your Drop Pods with Deathwind missiles be a good idea?

[Cheesegear]

Cheesegear, regarding the Crimson Fist list... would upgrading your Drop Pods with Deathwind missiles be a good idea?

It would be a good idea if I had more points, and/or was sure there was more Tyranids in the meta. Besides, I already have dual Thunderfire Cannons - three, if I throw in the Achilles.

[Requizen]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Tomb Blades, save for the fact that they aren't Wraiths. That's it. They have the same Toughness as Destroyers for half the cost, and both units cap out at the same number of models. Destroyers have Preferred Enemy, but that doesn't matter because your Lord is passing it to them anyway. Twin-Linked Gauss Blasters are far better than Gauss Cannons except in the most backwards of metas where everyone is still playing Marines from 5th Ed.

It's not a bad unit compared to Destroyers or Praetorians, but it is a bad unit compared to Wraiths or Scarabs. However Scarabs immediately start sucking when your meta graduates to 7th Edition and all of the Marine players are suddenly fielding double Thunderfires.

Yeah, I've been thinking that they're pretty good recently. Even though Wraiths are by and far best in slot for FA (seriously, who thought that they needed to be that stupidly cost effective with that statline/wargear?), I'm not a big fan of assault-oriented squads (hence playing Necrons), and I don't particularly fancy using them. Maybe I'll pick up some Tomb Blades and try them out...


Gah, no, have to finish what I have and my Imperial forces first. Then new Necrons later.

---

So, going in a completely different direction, an attempt at a 1500 Dark Harvest Necron list.

HQ
Toholk - 125
Destroyer Lord - Warscythe, MSS, Sempiternal - 160

Troops
10x Immortals - 170
10x Warriors - Night Scythe - 230
10x Warriors - Night Scythe - 230

Fast Attack
10x Charnel Scarabs - 200

Heavy Support
Annihilation Barge - 90
Annihilation Barge - 90
Monolith - 200

1495

Toholk goes with the Immortals. Monolith gets IWND, if we get 2-3 on the d3 roll, the others go on the Barges. Destroyer Lord + Scarabs can eat anything that's not a Vehicle, and even then the DLord can kill vehicles by himself with the Warscythe.

Quick thoughts after building:
-Might switch one of the Scythes to contain the Immortals.
-Also, still unsure which type of Immortals to bring. Tesla are, of course, usually better overall, but the list is overall lacking in Gauss (considering the Arcs on the Monolith are only Snap Shots and the Warriors will likely stick in the Scythes for a turn or two)
-Maybe drop an Immortal and switch one of the Scythes for an Ark? An Ark with IWND is pretty much as tough as the Monolith in a lot of cases.

I've really been digging Dark Harvest for a while here, interested to take it for a spin tonight.

[bluntpencil]

So, do many people play Unbound, using Pedro Kantor to just spam Elites? Makes for a cool Crusade Company, I guess!

[bluntpencil]

Also, does anyone know how to get Space Marine Honour Guard, in Artificer Armour, that don't look like Ultramarines? I've been thinking using MkIII Forge World Armour, then using the crested heads from the command set, to make a squad of crested Iron Armour guys, maybe with alternate chest-plates, to look like Artificer Armoured Honour Guard. The problem, then, is finding power mauls without paying tons for loads of superfluous junk.

[Cheesegear]

So, do many people play Unbound, using Pedro Kantor to just spam Elites? Makes for a cool Crusade Company, I guess!

Pedro has two rules;
1) If Pedro is your Warlord and - RAW - you are using Detachments, everyone gets PF (Orks), and Pedro gains his Chapter Banner aura.
Seperately,
2) If Pedro is in your army, Sternguard gain ObSec.

The first rule is dependent on Pedro being your Warlord and not playing Unbound.
The second rule requires that Pedro just be hanging around.
Therefore, in Unbound, Tigurius is your Warlord - as he should always be unless you're running a Chapter Master (Pedro doesn't count).

Also, does anyone know how to get Space Marine Honour Guard, in Artificer Armour, that don't look like Ultramarines?

I bought Sevrin Loth. He comes with a couple of 'generic' Honour Guard, just take a file to the Red Scorpion icons.
Artificer Armour is also found on Sanguinary Guard. Filing may be needed - especially if you don't like Roman-style armoured nipples.

Another way is simply Sternguard. They have iconography on their legs, and they have awesome shoulder pads, helmets and special Boltguns. Then, using Vanguard parts, give them all Power Weapons and Pistols to go with their Boltguns. The Vanguard box gives you even more cool options for everything but the torsos. The Vanguard box doesn't give you options for non-Jump Pack torsos.

The problem, then, is finding power mauls without paying tons for loads of superfluous junk.

Power Axes. Cut off the top, add a banner top or backpack-thingy.

[Squark]

Power Axes. Cut off the top, add a banner top or backpack-thingy.

Actually, for power mauls, Thunder hammer shafts are easier to find (There's 4 in the vanguard box, I believe), and should work just as well.

[Cheesegear]

Actually, for power mauls, Thunder hammer shafts are easier to find (There's 4 in the vanguard box, I believe), and should work just as well.

Better yet, just use the Thunder Hammers as Power Mauls. Don't tell me Warhammers aren't real things that exist. I've seen them.

[Requizen]

So I ran 2k of Dark Harvest against Tyranids tonight. The only things I took that were Dark Harvest specific were Toholk and Charnel Scarabs.

Charnel Scarabs did nothing, since they got shot to pieces before they got into Assault (lots of Blasts and then a failed charge roll, RIP). I think they may have been nice if I got in, but in the end, I ended up thinking the 50 points might have been better spent on other units. Maybe I would have felt differently if they could have gotten in and killed a MC, but they just kept dying. They could have acted as bubble wrap just as well for the DLord without the upgrade, so I guess it really depends on what I'm bringing them for.

Toholk... he seemed fine. 55 extra points for a Transdimensional Beamer (pretty bad), 1d3 IWND (pretty good), and Night Vision (not bad). In my game, all reserves came on turn 2 with 4s or better, so his Warlord Trait did nothing. I mostly forgot about his reroll, but I used it a few times (he was in a squad of Immortals, so not much happened with it). He only got 1 IWND, put it on the Monolith, which didn't get shot at all game. Probably would have been better on one of the Barges or the Stalker.

Overall I won, but I think I could have done just as well with a Necron list. And the fact that I had to bring 2 10 man Warrior squads without the ability to lower their model count kinda sucked for building. Can't put them in an Ark with a Character, can't drop it to 9 to free up some points, etc. It was cool to try once, but the small differences didn't wow me enough to make up for the downsides.

[Cheesegear]

Charnel Scarabs did nothing, since they got shot to pieces before they got into Assault (lots of Blasts and then a failed charge roll, RIP). I think they may have been nice if I got in, but in the end, I ended up thinking the 50 points might have been better spent on other units.

As far as I know, the Charnel Scarabs cost no more or less than regular Scarabs, and, again, AFAIK, neither Scarab version has better or worse survivability than the other. So I'm fairly sure that Scarabs getting blown apart would have happened anyway.

Toholk... he seemed fine. 55 extra points for a Transdimensional Beamer (pretty bad), 1d3 IWND (pretty good), and Night Vision (not bad). In my game, all reserves came on turn 2 with 4s or better, so his Warlord Trait did nothing. I mostly forgot about his reroll

Play with him again, and again and again. Make your decision after three or four games. Getting dice'd can make anything bad (or exceptional) for one game.

It was cool to try once, but the small differences didn't wow me enough to make up for the downsides.

Any thoughts on Flayed Ones as Objective Secured units? Outflanking or Deep Striking in the late game is pretty heavy. I think what you've done is very similar from somebody swapping from Ultramarines to Salamanders, without equipping everyone with Flamers and Melta weapons.

[Psychotic]

Living 3 hours away from my buddies and the nearest gaming club, it's very rare that I get to play a game. I broke my 3 week drought by playing a 1850 point game using the Siege Assault Vanguard list against the Death Korps Assault Brigade. I didn't write things down, so don't have a batrep drawn up unfortunately.

Spoiler

Show

Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics
- Siege Master with Power Fist and Shield Eternal
- ML 2 Librarian
- Tactical Squad (Siege Mantlets, Flamer, Missile Launcher, Combi-Melta)
- Tactical Squad (Flamer, Heavy Bolter, Combi-Melta)

- Rhino

- Siege Assault Squad (Power Sword, Meltabombs for the squad)

Land Raider Redeemer (Multi-Melta, Extra Armor)

- Dreadnought (Twin-Linked Autocannon x2)
- Thunderfire Cannon
- Devastators x10 (4 Lascannons)
- Vindicator x3 (Dozer blades x3)

So, since neither my buddy nor I have played with the new tactical objectives, we rolled the dice and played Maelstrom of War mission 6 (Deadlock).

Things I learned:
- Land Raiders, while still very durable, can still be hit with a lucky demolisher shell by enemy Thunderers and blow up in one shot.
- Assault Marines are not very good at Assault. Stop trying to make them do things and if I want an Objective Secured Land Raider, just keep the marines inside.
- When the marker template in a barrage hits (whether the Thunderfire Cannon or the Quad Launcher from the DKoK), the pain is gonna be bad. If not, you're in luck. So I think I might try reducing the pain of missing by bringing another Thunderfire sometime.
- Triple Vindicator is brutal at destroying nearly everything. Don't bring next time unless I feel like being a jerk.
- The Rifleman Dreadnought is still decent if you can get into side armor shots. And if you can't do that, it turns infantry into chunky salsa. I managed to pop a chimera and put some hull points off of Salamander tanks and left the heavy tank killing to vindicators and devastators.
- I'm still unsure how I feel about the Psychic Phase. I rolled Telepathy and got Invisibility and the power that gives Shrouding (as well as Psychic Shriek for the Primaris). My Librarian managed to get Invisibility off on the Vindicator squadron, and cast Shriek once - but ended up nearly nosebleeding himself to death. Some of the powers are suuuuuuper awesome and some of them are rather underwhelming. I guess I'll just keep playing around with them.
- The Maelstrom of War missions reaaaaaalllllyyyy love mobility. Neither my friend's DKoK list or my list were particularly good at either. Might stick with Eternal War next time if we both know that neither list is really well suited to Maelstrom.
- Lastly, when it comes to Maelstrom of War - is anyone else finding that luck of the draw is a huge part? My opponent manged to get 3 objective cards scored on turn 1, and then had a combination of getting dud cards and me actively stopping him from achieving other objectives. Conversely, I got awful cards for the early turns, but once I was able to assert board control by parking 3 Vindicators in the middle, I was able to achieve 2 cards a turn on average.

On to a different topic - I'm gonna be coming into possession of an armless Contemptor Dreadnought with a Lucius Drop Pod soon. I've got a few different thoughts on load-outs and want your opinions.

1) Kheres Assault Cannon/Powerfist with Heavy Flamer. Drop in, shoot away out of the pod for a turn and then start rampaging through like an AV13 walker.
2) Dual Kheres Assault Cannons. He could theoretically just chill inside of the Lucius Drop Pod and constantly unload. Thanks Open Topped for giving my dreadnought ablative Hull Points!
3) Dual CCW's. Just because I like the idea of big robots punching and smashing their way through the enemy.

Anywho - thoughts?

[thedavo]

Contemptor Mortis with twin Kheres is pretty awesome for Marine AA.

[Requizen]

As far as I know, the Charnel Scarabs cost no more or less than regular Scarabs, and, again, AFAIK, neither Scarab version has better or worse survivability than the other. So I'm fairly sure that Scarabs getting blown apart would have happened anyway.

Charnel cost 5 points more per base for the +1 WS, Rending, and Shred replacing Entropic. I brought a full blob of 10 bases, so for 50 more points they took it. I think it would have been pretty noticeable if I got into melee with a MC - even though they would have died in droves that many attacks with Shred/Rend would have done at least some damage.

Play with him again, and again and again. Make your decision after three or four games. Getting dice'd can make anything bad (or exceptional) for one game.

True. I could have used him better as well. I'll continue with it for a couple more games, at least.

Any thoughts on Flayed Ones as Objective Secured units? Outflanking or Deep Striking in the late game is pretty heavy. I think what you've done is very similar from somebody swapping from Ultramarines to Salamanders, without equipping everyone with Flamers and Melta weapons.

I actually don't own Flayed Ones And I'm probably not going to buy any just for these few playtests, though maybe in the future (especially if I can get them as presents ). I'm sure I could get away with some proxies if I so desired. As a thought process, though, I'd definitely bring at least one squad of 10-15 just for the flanking possibilities. They still... kinda suck though, but they're cheap and now at least they're Troops. Still, I'm not crazy about them overall and I'm not particularly sold that the DS/Outflank is worth having, well, Flayed Ones. For the same price I could have Warriors, and who doesn't love Warriors? If they want to get deep into the enemy's line at the middle/end of the game, pop em in a Night Scythe and zoom them up there.


After looking at Kutlakh, I'd like to try him if he wasn't so ungodly expensive. However, he kind of earns his price on Wargear. A similarly decked Overlord (using Warscythe for Obliterax since they're similar enough) costs 195. Phaeron and Phylactery kinda suck though, so about 160. For 65 points, then, he brings Fear, Fearless, ID, a possible WS reduction,+1 WS and Attack, and retains his Staff of Light shooting. (And, due to Forgeworld being behind, he can technically get on a CCB, which is pretty sick, though most TOs might frown on that one). He might actually be worth his cost if you can get him into melee, where he actually has a chance of tearing everything up. However, since he can't cruise around in a Ghost Ark and giving him a CCB might not be possible given rules interpretation, getting him into melee is the issue. And, while he brings 2+/3++ and SoL, he's not that great as a support HQ.

[bluntpencil]

Actually, for power mauls, Thunder hammer shafts are easier to find (There's 4 in the vanguard box, I believe), and should work just as well.

Another option: Deathwing Knights come with huge power mauls. Are the hands from the Terminator Armour noticeably larger than Mk III Power Armour hands?

[Psychotic]

Another option: Deathwing Knights come with huge power mauls. Are the hands from the Terminator Armour noticeably larger than Mk III Power Armour hands?

Quite. Also, the power mauls in the DW Knight kit are gigantic. The head is about the size of a power armored torso.

[bluntpencil]

Quite. Also, the power mauls in the DW Knight kit are gigantic. The head is about the size of a power armored torso.

Big is okay, they'll be on Iron Armour anyway, so looking ponderous is fine, it's more 'will the hands fit okay?'. Since they'll be from Imperial Fists, or successors, being a bit big is okay, so long as they fit okay.

[Requizen]

Since the hobby thread seems to be pretty dead, I might as well ask you guys:

After talking to CG about Flayed Ones, I thought about converting them rather than buying them outright (seeing as $45 for a box of 5 finecast Flayed Ones is a ****ing joke). A box of 12 Warriors, on the other hand, is pretty reasonable and have the same "skeleton". How difficult do you think it would be to make the "hands" for the Flayed Ones? The skin I can green stuff on, I think, but I'm unsure about making 2 hands with 3 claws each per model. Do you think Cardstock would be big/sturdy enough for it?

[Eldan]

The hands actually seem pretty easy. Just cut some claws from 1 or 1.5mm plasticard. It's about a dollar per sheet over here and you can easily make enough claws for several units out of one sheet.

[Squark]

Since the hobby thread seems to be pretty dead, I might as well ask you guys:

After talking to CG about Flayed Ones, I thought about converting them rather than buying them outright (seeing as $45 for a box of 5 finecast Flayed Ones is a ****ing joke). A box of 12 Warriors, on the other hand, is pretty reasonable and have the same "skeleton". How difficult do you think it would be to make the "hands" for the Flayed Ones? The skin I can green stuff on, I think, but I'm unsure about making 2 hands with 3 claws each per model. Do you think Cardstock would be big/sturdy enough for it?

Since the old flayed ones were metal, e-baying them shouldn't be hard, since even if the paint job is lousy, you can easily remove it without hurting the model.

EDIT: Right, looking back now, it seems the prices I remembered may have been an anomaly, and the warriors thing is looking like a better deal. Still, watching for a good deal on large bunches might not be a bad idea.

Better yet, just use the Thunder Hammers as Power Mauls. Don't tell me Warhammers aren't real things that exist. I've seen them.

Actually, I'd reccomend this. The Vanguard thunder hammers look a tad small compared to most hammers used in power armor, so calling them Power-hammers should be fine.

[Squark]

Sorry for the double post, but the point costs for the Storm Claw packs are out, so I thought I'd just update any Wolves players on the breakdown of what this (could) mean for an upcoming codex.

-The Grey Hunters pack is 10 points more expensive than their 5th edition counterpart, and has lost "ultra-grit" (That is, Boltgun+Bolt Pistol+Chainsword). Half of that is their wargear discount going away just like everyone else's did, but the other 5 points is a mystery. My money is on a character tax, though.

-The Blood Claws are 5 points cheaper than a 5th edition version of the pack, and have Rage instead of their old rules. 14 points a piece if they don't have a character tax (But they do have one, and at the very least he does have an extra attack, so I suspect they do. Which means 13 points a piece or less!)

-The wolf Guard pack would be 15 points more expensive with the current codex, most likely due to wargear cost changes. What those changes are, though, noone but GW knows for sure.

-Krom has a master-crafted frost axe and a belt of russ. No runic armor (Thus making challenges very dangerous, since being I1 with a 3+ save is a death sentence in a challege). He does have furious charge, though. He also gets a newly revised Saga of the Warrior Born, which now lets him re-roll to hit in challenges, but forces him to always make and accept challenges (Which kind of makes the master-crafted bit useless). Unless the saga allows another character to challenge instead of him, Krom will be basically useless.

EDIT: So, overall, Stormclaw is a disapointment. Since the scenarios require you to use specific (bad) wargear choices, you're unlikely to play them, and Krom is pretty useless. Still, if you need a rulebook and want some power armored space wolves and some termies, its not a bad buy.

[Requizen]

Sorry for the double post, but the point costs for the Storm Claw packs are out, so I thought I'd just update any Wolves players on the breakdown.

-The Grey Hunters pack is 10 points more expensive than their 5th edition counterpart, and has lost "ultra-grit" (That is, Boltgun+Bolt Pistol+Chainsword). Half of that is their wargear discount going away just like everyone else's did, but the other 5 points is a mystery. My money is on a character tax, though.

-The Blood Claws are 5 points cheaper than a 5th edition version of the pack, and have Rage instead of their old rules. 14 points a piece if they don't have a character tax (But they do have one, and at the very least he does have an extra attack, so I suspect they do. Which means 13 points a piece or less!)

-The wolf Guard pack would be 15 points more expensive with the current codex, most likely due to wargear cost changes. What those changes are, though, noone but GW knows for sure.

-Krom has a master-crafted frost axe and a belt of russ. No runic armor (Thus making challenges very dangerous, since being I1 with a 3+ save is a death sentence in a challege). He does have furious charge, though. He also gets a newly revised Saga of the Warrior Born, which now lets him re-roll to hit in challenges, but forces him to always make and accept challenges (Which kind of makes the master-crafted bit useless). Unless the saga allows another character to challenge instead of him, Krom will be basically useless.

Where'd you see these at? Are these just costs for the campaign games or are they indicative of the SW Codex changes?

[Squark]

Where'd you see these at? Are these just costs for the campaign games or are they indicative of the SW Codex changes?

They're leaked costs floating about the internet from people who've gotten their hands on a box. At the moment, they're only valid for the specific packs, but a lot of people are taking them as indicative of upcoming changes. Take my analysis with a grain of salt, though.


My specific source is here (The pack costs are on page 3), but we do have photographic evidence of boxes being opened, so odds are good that these leaks are accurate unless this is some sort of coordinated hoax.

Warning: Link contains somewhat rabid wolf fanboy-ism.

EDIT: On the plus side,Krom is only 135 points, so either he's got a wargear* discount and special rules, or several pieces of Space Wolf wargear got cheaper. He's also stubborn, if anyone cares.

90 point Wolf lord +50-55 points of wargear and his saga.

EDIT2: Sagas are Warlord traits? ... *headdesk*

[Requizen]

They're leaked costs floating about the internet from people who've gotten their hands on a box. At the moment, they're only valid for the specific packs, but a lot of people are taking them as indicative of upcoming changes. Take my analysis with a grain of salt, though.


My specific source is here (The pack costs are on page 3), but we do have photographic evidence of boxes being opened, so odds are good that these leaks are accurate unless this is some sort of coordinated hoax.

Warning: Link contains somewhat rabid wolf fanboy-ism.

EDIT: On the plus side,Krom is only 135 points, so either he's got a wargear* discount and special rules, or several pieces of Space Wolf wargear got cheaper. He's also stubborn, if anyone cares.

90 point Wolf lord +50-55 points of wargear and his saga.

EDIT2: Sagas are Warlord traits? ... *headdesk*

As I don't know much about Wolves, this is kind of sausage to me.

Can you use Krom's dataslate in regular 40k games? It sounds like it would be kinda fun to have him in an army list, even just for fluff value.

---

In other news, there was an article on Frontline Gaming today about Objective Secured units, and I've been thinking about them a lot as well recently. Yes, they're fantastic, but now that we've been playing 7th for a while, do you guys find them particularly... necessary? I can think of one or two times that an objective has been claimed due to it, or that I've had to focus on shooting Termagants off of an objective to claim it as my own. But on the whole, I don't think I can say that I've really played or seen a game where a Troop spam list beat a list with minimal troops due to ObSec.

In Eternal War missions, I think it might matter more because of end-of-game captures where you can run Troops onto something to secure it/deny them. However, in Maelstrom missions (which we tend to mostly play now), where half of the VPs aren't gained by objectives, and the rest of the time camping is discouraged? It doesn't seem as necessary. I played a 2k game with only 3 troops - and while I used them to capture objectives a lot, it was never because they took it off of an enemy without ObSec that was sitting on it.

This doesn't seem like an issue for some armies, where their Troops choices are really good, but for armies where their Troops are just kind of ok or worse, I think it has become a lot less necessary to bring the 1 + 1/500pts minimum that 6th ed had.

How do you feel about it?

[Squark]

As I don't know much about Wolves, this is kind of sausage to me.

Can you use Krom's dataslate in regular 40k games? It sounds like it would be kinda fun to have him in an army list, even just for fluff value.

All the dataslates are usable, yeah. Not terribly functional due to oddball wargear, but if someone makes them, they can use the dataslate.

In other news, there was an article on Frontline Gaming today about Objective Secured units, and I've been thinking about them a lot as well recently. Yes, they're fantastic, but now that we've been playing 7th for a while, do you guys find them particularly... necessary? I can think of one or two times that an objective has been claimed due to it, or that I've had to focus on shooting Termagants off of an objective to claim it as my own. But on the whole, I don't think I can say that I've really played or seen a game where a Troop spam list beat a list with minimal troops due to ObSec.

In Eternal War missions, I think it might matter more because of end-of-game captures where you can run Troops onto something to secure it/deny them. However, in Maelstrom missions (which we tend to mostly play now), where half of the VPs aren't gained by objectives, and the rest of the time camping is discouraged? It doesn't seem as necessary. I played a 2k game with only 3 troops - and while I used them to capture objectives a lot, it was never because they took it off of an enemy without ObSec that was sitting on it.

This doesn't seem like an issue for some armies, where their Troops choices are really good, but for armies where their Troops are just kind of ok or worse, I think it has become a lot less necessary to bring the 1 + 1/500pts minimum that 6th ed had.

How do you feel about it?

It's definately relevant, but sometime's its important and sometimes it isn't. Wow, that was a non-answer.

[Requizen]

Well, let me rephrase that.

Do you think that, given the new "everything scoring", that running lists with only 2 very minimal Troops and spamming other slots could be effective?

[Cheesegear]

The Grey Hunters pack is 10 points more expensive than their 5th edition counterpart, and has lost "ultra-grit" (That is, Boltgun+Bolt Pistol+Chainsword). Half of that is their wargear discount going away just like everyone else's did, but the other 5 points is a mystery. My money is on a character tax, though.

My money is that the Counter-Attack rules getting a change in 7th, making it better.

The Blood Claws are 5 points cheaper than a 5th edition version of the pack, and have Rage instead of their old rules.

Everyone likes Grey Hunters, nobody likes Blood Claws. Surprise! I remember a while back saying that nobody should be thinking that Grey Hunters are going to stay a 'staple unit, no matter the rules change', because that's not how the GW business model works. If Grey Hunters had stayed the same, Wolf players would have been lucky. Grey Hunters staying the same - or getting buffed - is not something Wolf players should have been expecting.

Unless the saga allows another character to challenge instead of him, Krom will be basically useless.

Nope. That's not how the rule works. The Warlord must issue and accept Challenges. That's Krom, not you, the player. That's why this rule is always terrible. I understand Forge The Narrative, but it's still terrible.

EDIT2: Sagas are Warlord traits? ... *headdesk*

I wish I could find that post of my response for the guy asking about 'staple units' for Space Wolves. Because I totally predicted that Sagas were likely to change.

Can you use Krom's dataslate in regular 40k games? It sounds like it would be kinda fun to have him in an army list, even just for fluff value.

So long as the book you're using doesn't have 'Apocalypse' on the front, you're good. I've had to point this out several times in my meta with people thinking Apocalypse Formations and Formations are the same thing. They're not. I wish they were. But they aren't.

How do you feel about [Objective Secured]?

It's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. The real thing is that most metas have banned Unbound lists. Objective Secured - and other Battle-Forged bonuses - are designed to encourage players away from Unbound, and, while players using Unbound can do whatever they want, they don't get bonuses. However, by banning Unbound, the point is moot.

If you don't see the value of ObSec, then you aren't (ab)using it correctly. One of the strongest lists in the game is Eldar Wave Serpents. Wave Serpents are a PitA to put down, so, what they're going to do, is speed off in five different directions, Tank Shock all of the units and sit on every single Objective by Turn 2. ObSec Drop Pods are the same. If you want to deny them points - even in Maelstrom - you must be ObSec'd, or spend a disproportionate amount of firepower to make sure you put it down. A Tank Shocking ObSec'd Land Raider is brutal "I'm here now."

Another issue is that it's still early 7th Ed. We don't really have any good alternatives to CAD yet, so everyone has Objective Secured as standard. Unless you have a really, really good reason not to (100 Fearless Orks comes to mind). But, it's still early 7th.

Do you think that, given the new "everything scoring", that running lists with only 2 very minimal Troops and spamming other slots could be effective?

No. Not unless you're getting ObSec from somewhere else (i.e; Pedro). The second you come up against someone who is abusing ObSec with their fantastic Troops options (Eldar, Space Marines), you will lose.

[Renegade Paladin]

I picked up Altar of War on a lark. Is it just me, or is the Artifact mission really badly designed? It seems like there's nothing preventing a player from just loading it up on a flyer and exiting the board.

[Squark]

I've got a question for anyone with Escalation. Can I get a Tesseract Vault or basic Transcendent C'tab for 730 to 830 points*? After my last few games, I feel that what my Mechrons really need is a strong center for the armored phalanx, and the monolith isn't killing enough stuff.

*730 gets me a 3rd Annihilation Barge. 830 requires cutting a few warriors.

[Requizen]

Blerg, that game sucked.

So the Tau player decided that he wanted to build a Tau Titan via Escalation rules. I thought this would be fine, as I've never really heard much about Escalation and I thought it would be on the level of a Knight, which I've played against before and beaten. We were doing a 2v2 (1k each for a 2k v 2k game) game where we were both Necrons against Tyranid/Tau, so I thought our level of Gauss would be fine.

Whoo boy. I was really, really wrong. 9HP, S9 AP2 Blast attack, some other multi shot bullhokey, Strength D melee weapon. Didn't help that our dice were rolling like ****, but hey, you can't have everything

I think in the future I will decline invitations to play against Escalation things until I know more about it/have something to deal with it.


But, but, tonight our store started stocking Tactical Objective Cards! So that was good.