[5e] High level Halfling fighters and rerolls.

[Particle_Man]

a) If a high level halfling fighter rolls a 1 on a saving throw and uses the halfling ability to reroll and still fails, can the halfling then use the fighter ability to roll the die a third time?

b) What about if the same character rolls a failure the first time, using the fighter ability to reroll, gets a natural 1 the second time, and wants to use the halfling ability to roll the die a third time?

c) What if the initial saving throw was rolled with advantage or disadvantage, and the red die was a natural 1 and the green die was a failure? Could the halfling fighter use the halfling ability to reroll the red die and the fighter ability to reroll the green die?

[TheOOB]

Both abilities say that you must use the new roll, so you wouldn't be able to reroll a reroll.

For advantage/disadvantage, you roll the same on the reroll as you did before, so I'd imagine you would still have advantage/disadvantage on the roll.

[Particle_Man]

Well the halfling ability in particular seems to only have you reroll one of the two dice (in the case of a roll with advantage or disadvantage), not both of them. I was assuming that the fighter ability was similar, but could be wrong.

[rlc]

I don't have a link to this, because I just took it from another thread on here, where somebody got it from a blog post, but:

If you get a reroll for any reason you only reroll one die. So if the attack you just made was with advantage and you get a reroll you only reroll one die, not both.

it says "a reroll for any reason," so I guess it's another case of how you read the rules. You technically have a reason for each reroll, so I'd probably say to go for it.

[obryn]

Halflings are, fwiw, considered possibly the best race due to this "reroll 1's" ability.

[pwykersotz]

Halflings are, fwiw, considered possibly the best race due to this "reroll 1's" ability.

Seriously. And lets not even get started on a campaign that allows critical fumbles.

[da_chicken]

Seriously. And lets not even get started on a campaign that allows critical fumbles.

I've been trying to talk my group out of it for 20 years. I had them for awhile with the "So a high level fighter fumbles more often than anyone else?" argument.

[obryn]

Seriously. And lets not even get started on a campaign that allows critical fumbles.

Yeah, I mean, I don't want to oversell it, but it amounts to a bonus to every d20 roll you make. If you need to hit a 10, an elf fails on 1-9. A halfling fails on 2-9. They may fail on a 1, still. It's substantially better than a Human's +1-to-all-stats, if you're comparing.

[TheOOB]

Seriously. And lets not even get started on a campaign that allows critical fumbles.

Seriously, lets not. Professional fighters shouldn't fumble their weapons 5% of the time.

Halflings are, fwiw, considered possibly the best race due to this "reroll 1's" ability.

That is a really good ability, but being small is a disadvantage in this system(honestly I think the extra damage from a greatsword ourweighs the extra damage from the accuracy), and the other races get really good abilities.

Basically, on a check you have a 50/50 shot of making, this ability increases your chance of success by 2.5% Good, but not earth shattering.

[Particle_Man]

Seriously. And lets not even get started on a campaign that allows critical fumbles.

Agreed. That is the house-rule I hate the most. And it is so popular where I live, too.

Yeah, I mean, I don't want to oversell it, but it amounts to a bonus to every d20 roll you make. If you need to hit a 10, an elf fails on 1-9. A halfling fails on 2-9. They may fail on a 1, still. It's substantially better than a Human's +1-to-all-stats, if you're comparing.

Let's see, the average on a d20 is 10.5. I think the average on a halfling d20 is 10.975.

A halfling also get +3 total to stats, so lets bump up their average to 0.5 (for being +3 spread out 6 stats) and half of that (because a stat boost is half of a modifier boost). So add .25 to get 11.225.

A human gets +1 to all stats, so like +.5 to all modifiers, so 11.

Yep, halflings get better d20 rolls on average (but lower movement rate and a harder time with heavy weapons).

[obryn]

That is a really good ability, but being small is a disadvantage in this system(honestly I think the extra damage from a greatsword ourweighs the extra damage from the accuracy), and the other races get really good abilities

I dunno, I think nimble warriors are where it's at, this edition, with how Finesse weapons are treated...

e: making it so only the first roll gets a reroll on a 1 did power it down, though.

[TheOOB]

Ehh, unless you're a rogue finesse weapons seem weak. Armor caps your dex bonus to AC, and you're almost always better wearing heavier armor if you're proficient with it(more AC), and strength based weapons flat out do more damage than finesse weapons(and with lower scaling and multiple attacks, the difference in weapon damage is relevant).

I think the Halfling luck ability is good, maybe even the best racial ability around, but I don't think halflings are neccesarlily all that much better than other races.

They lose 5 ft of movement and the ability to use heavy weapons. Their stat bonus is of limited use to anyone who wears heavy armor. Brave is decent but situational. Halfling Nimbleness is decent, but I'd rather have 5 ft of movement. Both of the sub-races are kind of sub par.

So by playing a Halfling, you are getting several mediocre abilities, one really good(but not broken) ability, and a couple of draw backs, seems good to me.

[IAmTehDave]

Both of the sub-races are kind of sub par.

I would like to posit that a Lightfoot Halfling Rogue using a whip is going to be my go-to martial for 5e:

You can attempt to hide even when you are obscured only by a creature that is at least one size larger than you.

Staring at 2nd level your quick thinking and agility allow you to(...) take a bonus action on each of your turns(...) to take the Dash, Disengage, or hide action.

So, on my turn I attack someone on the other side of a creature (either my ally or its) and then take my bonus action to Hide behind said creature. I probably have advantage on the attack, so I just hit you for 1d4+dex+Sneak Attack damage, (even if the person I'm standing behind is YOUR ALLY) and you probably can't see me. (Automatic advantage with Stealth as long as I don't move 15 feet, if level 9 Thief archetype. If attacking gives you disadvantage to stealth, then at least I don't have Disadvantage with it)

Optimal? Probably not.
Hilarious? I think so.

(Note that this tactic might be nixed by a DM saying "You can't hide in combat" despite having sufficient cover to hide)

On Topic: I think the fact that the rerolls both say "You must use the new roll" means that they don't stack. Pick one or the other. (I'd pick Lucky on a saving throw, since that doesn't have a uses/rest language)

edit: A small fighter may not be able ot use any of the "two-handed" weapons because they're also heavy, but they can use any of the Versatile weapons to deal the extra damage for 2-handing. Sure you're doing 1d10 instead of 1d12 (or 2d6) but it's not a big difference from an average perspective.

[TheOOB]

I would like to posit that a Lightfoot Halfling Rogue using a whip is going to be my go-to martial for 5e:




So, on my turn I attack someone on the other side of a creature (either my ally or its) and then take my bonus action to Hide behind said creature. I probably have advantage on the attack, so I just hit you for 1d4+dex+Sneak Attack damage, (even if the person I'm standing behind is YOUR ALLY) and you probably can't see me. (Automatic advantage with Stealth as long as I don't move 15 feet, if level 9 Thief archetype. If attacking gives you disadvantage to stealth, then at least I don't have Disadvantage with it)

Optimal? Probably not.
Hilarious? I think so.

(Note that this tactic might be nixed by a DM saying "You can't hide in combat" despite having sufficient cover to hide)

On Topic: I think the fact that the rerolls both say "You must use the new roll" means that they don't stack. Pick one or the other. (I'd pick Lucky on a saving throw, since that doesn't have a uses/rest language)

edit: A small fighter may not be able ot use any of the "two-handed" weapons because they're also heavy, but they can use any of the Versatile weapons to deal the extra damage for 2-handing. Sure you're doing 1d10 instead of 1d12 (or 2d6) but it's not a big difference from an average perspective.

Rogue's are not proficient in whips.

[IAmTehDave]

Rogues are not proficient in whips.

Huh...that's...what the hell is the point of the whip for martial characters? I guess if there's a feat or background for it...otherwise you're throwing daggers instead.

But seriously, the only finesse reach weapon and (at the moment) the only class proficient with it is the Fighter, who's better off with a heavy two-handed...

[obryn]

Huh...that's...what the hell is the point of the whip for martial characters? I guess if there's a feat or background for it...otherwise you're throwing daggers instead.

But seriously, the only finesse reach weapon and (at the moment) the only class proficient with it is the Fighter, who's better off with a heavy two-handed...

There is no point to at least 2/3 of the weapon list.

[TheOOB]

Huh...that's...what the hell is the point of the whip for martial characters? I guess if there's a feat or background for it...otherwise you're throwing daggers instead.

But seriously, the only finesse reach weapon and (at the moment) the only class proficient with it is the Fighter, who's better off with a heavy two-handed...

We don't have all the classes yet, and there may be other ways of gaining weapon profs(ie multiclassing). I can understand why rogues have a limited weapon selection. Sneak attack is really good.

[Sartharina]

But seriously, the only finesse reach weapon and (at the moment) the only class proficient with it is the Fighter, who's better off with a heavy two-handed...

Where are you getting that a fighter MUST use a heavy two-handed? Fighters can be just as effective when Dex-based as a rogue.

[IAmTehDave]

We don't have all the classes yet, and there may be other ways of gaining weapon profs(ie multiclassing). I can understand why rogues have a limited weapon selection. Sneak attack is really good.

Thus the (at the moment) bit. But yeah, I agree that Sneak Attack is really good. I just want to hide behind the fighter and whip the bad things!

Where are you getting that a fighter MUST use a heavy two-handed? Fighters can be just as effective when Dex-based as a rogue.

I never said they MUST use a heavy 2-H. I said that numerically, they're better off from a DPR perspective.
Perhaps Two-weapon fighting light finesse weapons might be better DPR with a good ability mod until you get multiple attacks.

I worked out the math but the forum ate it. Suffice to say, at level 5 with 18 in the appropriate primary score, the 2H and the 2WF/finesse work out to almost the same average damage, but the 2H doesn't need to take its bonus action for an attack, opportunity attacks deal more damage, and you can reroll the first 1-2 on the greatsword's D6s.

[Fwiffo86]

a) If a high level halfling fighter rolls a 1 on a saving throw and uses the halfling ability to reroll and still fails, can the halfling then use the fighter ability to roll the die a third time?

b) What about if the same character rolls a failure the first time, using the fighter ability to reroll, gets a natural 1 the second time, and wants to use the halfling ability to roll the die a third time?

c) What if the initial saving throw was rolled with advantage or disadvantage, and the red die was a natural 1 and the green die was a failure? Could the halfling fighter use the halfling ability to reroll the red die and the fighter ability to reroll the green die?

I remember reading something about this on the WotC site... I think it goes this way..

The fighter ability always give you advantage on save throws (you will re-roll anyway automatically) In the statistically unlikely event both roll 1s, you can activate the Halfling ability and reroll.

[Particle_Man]

I remember reading something about this on the WotC site... I think it goes this way..

The fighter ability always give you advantage on save throws (you will re-roll anyway automatically) In the statistically unlikely event both roll 1s, you can activate the Halfling ability and reroll.

That would seem to make rolling two 1s better than rolling a 1 and a 2. The latter almost guarantees failure and the former gets a reroll.

More likely, it means that halfling fighters would only use that ability on saves one time in 400 after hitting a certain level.

Odd.

[TheOOB]

That would seem to make rolling two 1s better than rolling a 1 and a 2. The latter almost guarantees failure and the former gets a reroll.

More likely, it means that halfling fighters would only use that ability on saves one time in 400 after hitting a certain level.

Odd.

I forget where, but Word of God was clear that you A) can only reroll one die, and B) You can't reroll a reroll.

[obryn]

That would seem to make rolling two 1s better than rolling a 1 and a 2.

It's already better for a Halfling to roll a 1 than a 2 on the first roll.

I'm pretty sure any die that's rolled, a halfling can reroll if it comes up a 1. So I'd say this is plausible: Roll 1 - reroll 6 - Use ability - Roll 1 - reroll 14