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Thread: Wisdom and Will

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    Default Wisdom and Will

    I've been thinking, why is wisdom used for will saves?

    Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition.
    Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness
    How Is Willpower different from Force of Personality? Why is Willpower associated with Wisdom?
    Last edited by Gralamin; 2007-02-28 at 12:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Wisdom and Will

    Character's willpower would be the reason. It is associated with it because of rules, but if you don't like you can allways change it. Force of Personality represents ability to influence others, while Willpower represents the ability to resist influence of others.
    Last edited by marjan; 2007-02-28 at 12:33 AM.

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    Default Re: Wisdom and Will

    Quote Originally Posted by marjan View Post
    Character's willpower would be the reason.
    How Is Willpower different from Force of Personality? Why is Willpower associated with Wisdom?
    Lets answer all of the question shall we?

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    Default Re: Wisdom and Will

    Sorry I didn't notice other two questions first time I red it.

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    Default Re: Wisdom and Will

    The three mental stats are roughly anagalous to the physical stats, although different people read them different ways. The way I've always seen them, Charisma is mental strength - how forceful your mind is/can be. Intelligence is mental dexterity - how adroitly your mind twists around problems. Wisdom is mental constitution - how fiercely your mind resists influence and withstands input (which is why it's also associated with senses.)

    Since you're not bulling through mental influence nor dodging around it, Wisdom is the best fit.

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    Default Re: Wisdom and Will

    I have gone by the rulings in the SRD for Wisdom being that as you note. a Will saving throw is based upon one's mental strength (not mental power, different abiilty score) and resistance to being taken over (either magically/psionically, or mundane [see Sense Motive]). It makes sense to use Wisdom as the Will saving throw modifier.

    The feat "Force of Personality" is an interesting feat. It's very specific on what it resists against, but it also makes sense if you wage it against mundane means of control. I think it's a little weak. If I DM'ed, I would rule that if you have this feat (Along with Iron Will, of course) that it uses your CHA mod instead of WIS mod for 'all' WILL saves.

    Now, one thing that is peculiar is the "Steadfast Determination" feat. It allows you to use your CON modifier in place of your WIS modifier on all Will saves, and you do not fail Fort saves on a natural 1 on the die. It does not have the restriction that "Force of Personality" does.

    Perhaps "force of personality" was one of those feats for a heavy Psi campaign; that may not use the Psi/Magic Transparency rule.
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    Default Re: Wisdom and Will

    Because it was so associated in AD&D, where the only function of Charisma was to determine your maximum number of followers and add a modifier to reaction rolls. Every mental attribute that wasn't clearly Intelligence was conflated under Wisdom, and Charisma was left as a cosmetic ability score.

    Anyway, "force of personality" is just another word for charisma. It's describing results more than anything. In D&D 3rd edition, it's gotten some qualities of willpower (mostly because it's now one of the "magical attributes").

    Willpower is a process and a quality both; taking actions, making and carrying out plans, persevering in the face of failure or adversity, holding your ground in various situations... willpower is a complicated attribute in itself (no wonder it's a separate attribute in many games, eh?).

    Moving willpower under Charisma would be a much better conflation, as those go... it's still grossly inaccurate, but less so than conflating willpower and perceptiveness.

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    Default Re: Wisdom and Will

    The way I always saw it, Charisma measures your force of personality and the ability to impose your will on reality. In normal circumstances this means that people are attracted to you and more willing to listen to your ideas, because there's "something about you" - something being a loosely defined combination of personality, habits, presentation, mannerisms, external and internal confindence, and a few other things. Combined with magical energies, this results in the ability to make your will manifest on reality with spontaneous spellcasting.

    Wisdom (again IMHO) represents your ability to accurately interpret reality, to judge the motives of sentient beings, to determine friend from foe, and to see the likely outcome of events, as well as to work through practical logic sequences. This is what allows you to resist charms and illusions - the rational part of your mind discounts the appearance of an authority figure from your past showing up and telling you what to do as improbable and false - thus providing a successful will save versus illusion. A similar process is used to separate your own thoughts from those the enemy spell is putting in your mind (vs. compulsion). In this manner it is closely linked to intelligence. In the DnD settings, it also allows you to better interpret your Deity's will - and the Deity rewards you with more/more powerful spells.

    For grins, Intelligence allows for the working of abstract logical processes, memory, sciences and mathematics, rule sets and patterns (like languages and prepared castings), and also contributes to the learning of skills in general, as well as skills that rely on memory formed from tenuous and rewarding study, like Knowledge: X and Spellcraft.

    That help?
    Last edited by Jade_Tarem; 2007-02-28 at 12:46 AM.
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    Default Re: Wisdom and Will

    Jade_Tarem:

    I like your differentation. To translate it into terms I'm more comfortable with, Wisdom would measure your sense of Self - your knowledge and confidence in your self, your awareness of yourself as a being (well, we run into issues there with animals), and so on, making plans and understanding yourself; it's a component of willpower, and being internal, Will saves naturally fall under this ability score. Charisma would measure your Will - your ability to act in and on your environment, effecting changes.

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    Default Re: Wisdom and Will

    This has been very helpful. Thank you.

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    Default Re: Wisdom and Will

    The common sense aspect is big there, too.
    Consider saving against a Charm Person spell:
    "Hey, a couple minutes ago, I was ready to beat this guy's head in...now I have a vague urge to really like him but I can't think of why...that doesn't make sense, does it?"

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    Default Re: Wisdom and Will

    *Gralamin Takes a list with Uses for CHA Written on it and crosses off "will save"*

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    ^*questions the existence of such a list*

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    Default Re: Wisdom and Will

    It exists. It may of only had that on it, but it exists :P

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    Default Re: Wisdom and Will

    It is kinda pathetic, unless you have a CHA based class ability, CHA is only good for ability and skill checks.

    Incidently I've been working on a magic rework where one of the changes is that all spellcasters base their spell save DC off of CHA and their spells/day on int or wis. Someone with a high cha has a stronger sense of self, and thus is able to pull greater amounts of mana into their spells.

    At least thats how I justify it.
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    Default Re: Wisdom and Will

    I use the same definitions as Krellen does. I've always wanted to sit down and rejigger the way the rules work to make the mental stats map more cleanly with the physcial stats. Intelligence/Dexterity, Wisdom/Constitution, Charisma/Strength. Psionic combats and similar magic [charms, and the like] would use a mental AC based on Int, mental HP based on Wisdom, and mental attacks based off of Charisma.

    But then I think about how much work that would be for such little return and abandon the project.

    The only place I've ever seen these mappings actually used was in 2nd edition Astral travel (I think, I might be misremembering which plane it was). While on the Astral plane, your mental stats replaced your physical stats for movement, combat, etc. Also, there was at least one 2nd edition Psionics variant that did something similar. I think it was in one of the Dark Sun supplements.
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    Default Re: Wisdom and Will

    Uses for Charisma:
    Skill Checks
    Ability Checks
    Spontaneous Casting
    Undead (Turning, bolstering, or even being Undead)

    Uses for Wisdom
    Skill Checks
    Ability Checks
    Divine Casting
    Will Saves

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    Default Re: Wisdom and Will

    I wouldn't be so quick to cross this off the charisma list. Sure there are valid fluff reasons to link it to Wisdom, but there are also valid fluff reasons to link it to Charisma too. Both work just fine and it wouldn't be unbalancing.
    Uses for Charisma:
    Skill Checks
    Ability Checks
    Spontaneous Casting
    Undead (Turning, bolstering, or even being Undead)

    Uses for Wisdom
    Skill Checks
    Ability Checks
    Divine Casting
    Will Saves
    This list is pretty deceptive. First, it shouldnt' consider class or race specific uses at all except maybe as a tiebreaker.

    Taking that into account Wisdom works for 3 things (skill, ability, and will saves), charisma works for two (skill and ability). Now, consider this as well: there are no charisma checks for all intents and purposes. The only one I'm aware of is the check to deal with a chaos beast. Wisdom doesn't have many ability checks but they exist (such as non-skill sensory checks like smell, taste and touch).

    Overall wisdom is very clearly more useful in general.
    Last edited by oriong; 2007-02-28 at 01:46 AM.
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    Default Re: Wisdom and Will

    Though if you took away will saves from Wisdom that stat would be in the same place cha is, just used for class abilities and a few skills.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    Though if you took away will saves from Wisdom that stat would be in the same place cha is, just used for class abilities and a few skills.
    Not really, it would be worse off but it wouldn't be useless. Charisma's skill options are pretty much useless to anyone not investing in them actively, they're all social and one person in the group can completely pick up the slack for the rest with rare exceptions. There's really no other use.

    Wisdom on the other hand is applied to some of the most important skills in the game: Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive. These are things that everyone finds useful, if for no other reason than most of the time everyone in the party can make these rolls and have a chance of sensing things (not to mention the usefulness of evading the suprise round). As I pointed out above it's also used for more ability checks than charisma is.

    Wisdom will be worse off without Will saves, but it won't be an 'auto-dump' stat.
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    Default Re: Wisdom and Will

    I keep being tempted to use a "best of 2" method of determining saves, where your attribute modifer is the better of either of the 2 linked attributes:

    FORT: Str/Con
    REF: Dex/INT
    WIL: Wis/Cha

    It's not all that big a difference, in practice. And it can help in save-or-suck hevay games, by minimizing the number of smaller save modifiers.
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    Yea, I kind of lean towards that as well. For some reason I was convinced for months that the average of your Wis/Cha, or Str/Con were used for Will Saves or Fort saves, respectively.
    I don't know why, but I got it into my head, and it still lives there.
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    Default Re: Wisdom and Will

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordguy View Post
    I keep being tempted to use a "best of 2" method of determining saves, where your attribute modifer is the better of either of the 2 linked attributes:

    FORT: Str/Con
    REF: Dex/INT
    WIL: Wis/Cha

    It's not all that big a difference, in practice. And it can help in save-or-suck hevay games, by minimizing the number of smaller save modifiers.
    Too generous, I'd say. Make it the worse of the two and I might follow you.
    After all, if you break someone's legs and give him a headband of intellect, his ability to dodge isn't going to do so well overall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sardia View Post
    Too generous, I'd say. Make it the worse of the two and I might follow you.
    After all, if you break someone's legs and give him a headband of intellect, his ability to dodge isn't going to do so well overall.
    MAD much?

    That's a-WAY to harsh. Now, being able to choose which attribute to use based on the situation may be the best compromise, but has the higher complexity as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordguy View Post
    MAD much?

    That's a-WAY to harsh. Now, being able to choose which attribute to use based on the situation may be the best compromise, but has the higher complexity as well.
    Seems to fit, though, although you might have to adjust save DCs with that in mind when designing or running an adventure.
    And casually having a dump stat becomes a much harder choice.
    Giving players hard choices is almost always fun.

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    Default Re: Wisdom and Will

    ...besides, broken legs probably gives a massive circumstance penalty to AC.

    Instead of using the higher of the two modifiers, you could give players an additional bonus if the secondary attribute is high.

    For example, say you have a Con score of 14, a +2 modifier, and you have a Str score of 18, a +4 modifier. Constitution is the primary stat for Fortitude saves, so you get your entire Con modifier as a bonus. Strength is the secondary stat -- you don't get your entire Str modifier. But, because the modifier is above 0, you gain an extra +1 to Fort saves.

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    Default Re: Wisdom and Will

    Or just add the modifiers, I suppose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oriong View Post
    *snip* there are no charisma checks for all intents and purposes. The only one I'm aware of is the check to deal with a chaos beast. *snip*
    And to fight for control when binding creatures and stuff like that. It's nearly always an opposed charisma check.

    Everything else you said was valid; I just cut this out to be picky.
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    I belive charisma can also be used to determine what peoples initial reactions are twords you before you have a chance to get your diplomacy on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jade_Tarem View Post
    And to fight for control when binding creatures and stuff like that. It's nearly always an opposed charisma check.

    Everything else you said was valid; I just cut this out to be picky.
    On that subject....
    In addition to the chaos beast resistance, there's a charisma check to resist doing something you wouldn't ordinarily do while charmed, and to throw off being enthralled. (In an obscure fashion, there's a check to regain control of a berserk flesh golem as well. However, you have to be the creator, and you can't be the creator without casting spells, therefore, class-specific.)

    On wisdom's side, we have wisdom checks for tracking by scent, figuring out you have a lycanthropy problem, and navigating a plane with subjective gravity (obscure, yet practical).

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