Problems With D&D (not a fix)

[1pwny]

Spoiler: Note: Please Read

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This isn’t a fix.

This is just, for now, a listing of all the problems in D&D 3.X. The things that make it not work as well as it could. The intrinsic misfires in the creation of the game. The things that no amount of fixes could change.

I used books, manga and anime as a basis for what works. I still think my points are valid.

Alright! So, here are the problems I’ve decided are big and overarching enough to include. Remember, this is not a fix! This is just a listing of dysfunctionalities! Which for now only covers spells!

Spells:

We know that they’re unfair. We can see it in the numbers, the chances, the encounters and the scenarios. Its time we take a step back and look at why they are so unbalanced.

Spoiler: The Concept

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By looking at the Spell section of dndtools.eu, one can see how immensely huge the spell list is. Why is it so big?

The creators of D&D, at the beginning, said “Lets have magic; lets let the players have magic. Lets let them do whatever they want to do.”

So instead of making a system where a player designs a spell, they decided to try and “cover all bases.” So they started making spells, and never stopped. They imagined every scenario, and tried to account for it with a spell.

Let us now look at, for example, Naruto. In that series, instead of saying “What can we do,” they said “What can’t we do?” They created an open-ended system of justus, where basically an elemental effect could be replicated with enough effort. They then created some exceptions, where a few extraordinary people had outside-system skills.

Whether it was reanimation, teleportation, or mind control, only select people had access to the above-ordinary skills.

Another way of looking at it was that while there were a huge number of special techniques, only a few had access to any given one.

Meanwhile, in the meta-game or real-game of D&D, you practically have access to any spell, with the right amount of money.

Spoiler: The Amount

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Balance is always key. Especially in RPGs.

In Naruto, people have a set amount of chakra with which to use their techniques. That chakra is a combination of mental and physical energy. For example, Sakura (when she was a young teen obsessed with dieting) lacked the stamina to use jutsus, and thus had to conserve her chakra.

In D&D, your physical health has almost no relevance.

You could be the weakest person in your party, but with the right brainpower you could actually cast more spells than Mr. Bozo with Constitution 18. Because extra Spells per Day is based on your mental stats.

Same with Powers and Power Points. You get rewarded for having high intelligence, instead of high stamina. Which makes no sense in practical terms, though the ideas of powers and power points hits closer to the mark than Spells per Day.

BTW, in case you can’t tell, I made a pun with calling the problems server-side and client-side. Its parodying Internet problems.

Spoiler: The Functionality (server-side)

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When I say this, I’m talking about something very specific, which is why the spells don’t work fairly, and it boils down to two things.

Utility and Range.

I, at first, had put down “Power and Range” as the two things that it boils down to, put as I kept trying to write down the “Power” section, I came to realize that, while spells deal far too much damage, thats mostly a client-side problem, as I’ll explain later. I came to realize that the problem with D&D spells are Utility and Range.

Utility: Spells do too much. Really, this is a problem with the variety that any given spellcaster is allowed to choose from, but I’ll put it here anyway.

In Naruto, a genjutsu master has to preoccupy themselves while putting you into an illusion. They can’t attack at all. That’s for your teammates.

In Toriko, everyone has a single specialty. They can use that however they want, but Coco will never throw a Spiked Punch.

But in D&D, spellcasters are too versatile.

How else can you describe someone that can fly, while simultaneously casting an illusion on you, while simultaneously blinding and stunning you, while simultaneously throwing down meteors?

Even on a small scale, the fact that it takes 1 round of effort to stun somebody completely for enough rounds to kill is something that you will never see take place anywhere else. Usually

Range: Range is another big problem in D&D. No matter how good your archery, your range is almost never going to break 200 feet, and if it does, then 300 feet is an insurmountable goal. Meanwhile, a Caster - not even breaking out the metamagic - gets 400 + 40*CL range on many spells. That’s easily over 800 feet in range.

This problem can be related to the entire problem of mortal access to different planes. In Bleach, different dimensions exist. The Soul Society and Hueco Mundo (Bleach) are both examples of this. But, no matter one’s own ability to shift dimensions, no one ever forcibly made another change dimensions, and no one was able to create a fully functional copy of themselves in another dimension. Along the same lines, no one ever created their own plane, by themself, to their own specifications. The amount of abuse that causes is insane.

Spoiler: The Functionality (client-side)

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Spells have a few problems with how they are received, too.

Casting: Paired with Range (from server-side problems) is how spells are cast in D&D. In almost any other fantastical scenario, spells travel[. Let me explain this in greater detail:

In D&D, if somebody casts Fireball, a ball of flame immediately appears on the targeted area. There’s no flight path, and there’s no time to react. It just appears.

Anywhere else, if I want to throw a fireball at you, I probably aim with my hands, point at you, and then fire explodes outwards in your direction. This approach allows you to dodge, block, or counter much easier, and also circumvents some range problems. If you can see the spell coming at you, you’ll have a much easier time dodging.

Dodging: In D&D, you can’t dodge spells. If we take what is average for manga, anime and books as normal, then the entire “dodging” mechanism (if you call it that) in D&D is flawed.

Some spells allow for a Reflex save. Whoopie. We’re all happy now!

No.

I would argue that for any spell, you should have a chance of dodging. Reflex saves are, supposedly, a combination of physical agility, innate talent and battle-hardened experience.

In anime, excitable younger sisters that rush to glomp are easily the norm. And, in fact, many protags have developed the ability to dodge those siblings due to the sheer fact that over-exposure to surprise attacks has given them a type of sixth-sense.

This built-up sixth sense is not really present in D&D. And if it were, then you would see people sidestepping Lightning, ducking fire, deflecting ice shards and dodging force. And, if you look at high-level battles of Mundane vs. Magical from other sources, that’s exactly how it goes down.

Overpowering: All of us know that stereotype. That big, hulking dude that rushes straight through the wind wave and continues undeterred, because he is stronger than the spell itself. Ichigo, in one of the first chapters of Bleach, broke through a restricting spell with pure, physical power. Kenpachi Zaraki took one look at a meteor the size of a city, took out his sword, and cut through it in one swing. Because he can. And in D&D, he can’t.

Whether its slicing through a blast with a sword, or swiping aside a giant blade of energy, people in other fantasy setting with extreme physical attributes tend to be able to counter magical prowess with extreme physical prowess.

This isn’t present in D&D, and widens the gap between Mundanes and Casters.

Miscellaneous:

Spoiler: #noarmor

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AC. Armor Class.

a.k.a The most stupid attempt at recreating a real-life concept.

Let’s take an example:

Some really, really good fighter attacks a guy in full plate, using a tower shield. His TAB (total attack bonus) beats the guy’s AC.

The attack does the same damage as it would without the armor.

Think about that.

Armor offers no damage reduction, and instead only works as a dodge-enhancer, strangely enough.

Thought that needed pointing out.

Feel free to offer comments, insight, or more basic problems you’ve found in the D&D system!

[Carl]

I know i'm cherry picking point's but i wanted to respond to a couple:

Even on a small scale, the fact that it takes 1 round of effort to stun somebody completely for enough rounds to kill is something that you will never see take place anywhere else. Usually

The problem here isn't the spell that lets you stun. A stun from any melee character at a melee range amounts to the same thing if it lasts into the next round because your unable to act so they can coup-de-grace you if they have no allies nearby. Unless the target has an insane fort save and/or AC that's a one-hit kill.

The problem here is that there are way too many special conditions that amount to "don't get it or you die, just not until somone gets round to finishing you off in a few rounds".

In D&D, if somebody casts Fireball, a ball of flame immediately appears on the targeted area. There’s no flight path, and there’s no time to react. It just appears.

Anywhere else, if I want to throw a fireball at you, I probably aim with my hands, point at you, and then fire explodes outwards in your direction. This approach allows you to dodge, block, or counter much easier, and also circumvents some range problems. If you can see the spell coming at you, you’ll have a much easier time dodging.

What do you think the nigh typical reflex save represents? And why under this point don't arrows have a travel time.


Most of the games problems can be traced back to special condition effects, flight, and some faulty assumptions surrounding martial. This is your thread so i'm not going to go into any more than that here, but to me your so caught up in this idea that everything has to be limited to be balanced that you've lost sight of the actual root causes of what makes so many of the really deadly or broken spells, well, deadly/broken.

[Pronounceable]

they decided to try and “cover all bases.” So they started making spells, and never stopped. They imagined every scenario, and tried to account for it with a spell

You could've just said this. That's the root of the problem right there, everything else is just an extension of it.

Same with Powers and Power Points. You get rewarded for having high intelligence, instead of high stamina. Which makes no sense in practical terms, though the ideas of powers and power points hits closer to the mark than Spells per Day.

The problem here is that you're trying to make sense of "magic" and are decrying DnD's. Magic could be standard Vancian, it could be limited by willpower/mana/material components/lifespan/etc, it could require very long and intricate rituals, it could unexpectedly happen spontaneously with no rhyme or reason, it could be the infinite power of the mind or it could be nanomachines. Vancian spellcasting is as valid as any other ideas about magic. Everything depends on execution and the only unsolvable problem of DnD magic is the omnipotency.

Armor Class

It's simple abstraction, as good as any other (and better than most). Don't worry too much what it means. The less numbers, the better. You can go nuts with damage reduction by armor, effects of different weapons against different armors, actual damage to body vs simple exhaustion of combat, lasting effects of injury, item durability and whatevs when you're designing a video game that'll do all the calculations for you. DnD's Armor Class and Hit Points are ubiquitious because they're simple and functional.

Same goes for basic d20+mod>DC=WIN mechanic. It's simple and useful so it persists, even where some sort of results table dependant on numeric difference would arguable be more "logical".
...
The "main" problems of DnD are design concepts: unlimited magic and ****tons of superfluous crap from the need to sell more books. First is too much of a sacred cow for the loudmouthed neckbeard fans of nerdwizard supremacy over jockfighters and second is the basic principle of capitalism. Neither of which can be fixed by WotC.

[jqavins]

Well, Someone, it seems most of your specific complaints boil down to two. First and foremost, D&D magic doesn't work like your favorite manga and anime. Second, D&D magic doesn't make sense. On the other hand, you started off with more general statements about caster vs. martial balance.

OK, first, D&D isn't manga and it isn't anime and it's not supposed to be. I bet there's a Naruto RPG out there, and if there isn't then there's an oportunity for you create one. But D&D isn't it, and was never meant to be.

Second, magic never makes sense; that's why it's called magic. What makes sense is that nobody can throw fireballs or create elaborate illusions or fly or any of the stuff that magic lets some people do in D&D, manga, anime, movies, etc.

Magic could be standard Vancian, it could be limited by willpower/mana/material components/lifespan/etc, it could require very long and intricate rituals, it could unexpectedly happen spontaneously with no rhyme or reason, it could be the infinite power of the mind or it could be nanomachines. Vancian spellcasting is as valid as any other ideas about magic.

Here here.

The one thing you said that I think addresses caster vs. martial balance is that caster damage is too high. I agree. Caster damage could, perhaps, be house-ruled down.

AC. Armor Class. [Etc.]

Here I kind of agree with you. cnsvnc is quite right that any usable system will be something of an oversimplification. But I do generally prefer an oversimplified Armor-Grants-DR system to an oversimplified Armor-Prevents-Hits system. Converting D&D to such a system would probably be a massive undertaking. (I realize you stated this is't about fixes, but I can't resist giving it some thought.) It's not enough to give each armor type a DR number in place of its AC number. One would also have to catagorize other effects as giving DR or AC, since things like high Dex certainly prevent hits rather than reducing damage, and any given magical effect may be one or the other. Then one would have to look at weapon damage. If the DR from armor is enough to render some hits ineffective, i.e. reducing the damage to zero in place of preventing the hit, then the maximum damage and average damage is reduced, and this may well lead to new imbalences that would have to be addressed by increasing weapon base damage by some fraction of the midrange armor's DR. Even then, the strategy of weapon choice would be seriously altered.

[Stellar_Magic]

Here I kind of agree with you. cnsvnc is quite right that any usable system will be something of an oversimplification. But I do generally prefer an oversimplified Armor-Grants-DR system to an oversimplified Armor-Prevents-Hits system. Converting D&D to such a system would probably be a massive undertaking. (I realize you stated this is't about fixes, but I can't resist giving it some thought.) It's not enough to give each armor type a DR number in place of its AC number. One would also have to catagorize other effects as giving DR or AC, since things like high Dex certainly prevent hits rather than reducing damage, and any given magical effect may be one or the other. Then one would have to look at weapon damage. If the DR from armor is enough to render some hits ineffective, i.e. reducing the damage to zero in place of preventing the hit, then the maximum damage and average damage is reduced, and this may well lead to new imbalences that would have to be addressed by increasing weapon base damage by some fraction of the midrange armor's DR. Even then, the strategy of weapon choice would be seriously altered.

Armor Class... such a pain. The thing is, I get why its designed the way it is in DnD... as DnD is designed to emulate a fantasy/medieval environment, and therefore is optimized for weapons of that time. Since Full-plate armor, would deflect arrow strikes, sword strikes, and most other typical attacks... a 'effectively a miss' type of mechanic where armor decreases the chance of an attack connecting with the target makes sense.

Going with DR also has problems, as you've pointed out. Moreover, another one being that DR for armor wouldn't account for attacks that hit unprotected areas either... (I would advocate a DR X/critical hits for armor grants DR designs). Neither does it really simulate the effect of a blow just glancing off the armor, something that could happen with leather armor, or full-plate.

[Carl]

Got a bit more time for a more detailed response now and my head and vision are no longer swimming.

1. Try not to bring outside examples in unless your involving highly popular meme inducing movies. Anything less will go over the heads of at least some people. In my case i know nothing of Bleach, fortunately i'm familiar with a lot of the basic concepts therein so i can follow your examples anyway, but not everyone will be able to.

2. There's nothing wrong with a spell for every situation, it's as valid as custom spell creation and as both D&D's own epic rules and certain other systems show custom spell creation can be even more broken than lots of spells. The big issue is that many of the effects are unique to magic, or can be applied without the limits non-magic options have so magic can do things non-magic can't or can do it better. An ability to do a particular thing is rarely an issue, the ability to do said thing better than others or without the limits of others IS.

3. Just because one fictional system relies on physical as well as mental aspects to cast magic doesn't means that's the only way to do things. Indeed the traditional western view of such things is Merlin. The guy, (in most depictions), on his own couldn't have swung a sword to save his life. But his mind was all he needed to cast devastating magic. That said you do hit an important point. in D&D 3.5 all casters care about is con for HP and one mental stat for casting, physical classes care about con for HP's and both the physical stats for other reasons. That's an inherent imbalance.

4. Range absolutely is an issue, though with the right feat Bows can easily match the range, but in general the maximum range of many effects in D&D is too long to be worth simulating.

5. As i said Dodge is covered by reflex saves, particularly in the case of stuff with evasion. No there's no physical movement. But that's a valid design decision to reduce bookkeeping and abuse potential, (something that tends to happens a LOT in other systems where this is possible).

6. Again mettle + Fort/Will saves adequately cover the power through aspect, the stuff you can't power through often comes back to a case of poorly written effects or effects that use non-magic core rules that aren't really well thought out, (like your wind example).

[ace rooster]

I feel the need to quibble your statement about mages having greater range. Any mook with a heavy crossbow can hit out to 1200ft. Add in far shot and they can hit 300ft with only a -2. If they are allowed basic magic then accuracy oil means they can hit 640ft with only a -4, and 1280ft at a -10. At 6th level 640ft is the range of a fireball, and 1280ft is the absolute max range you can expect the mage to be able to do anything at, with the vast majority of spells being considerably shorter range. (other than fire a crossbow back, but even then only if they are a warmage).

The inability to avoid targeted spells is something that bugs me a bit, and I would be all in favor of every spell being either area, allowing a reflex save for an immediate action move (using next rounds move action), or a ranged touch attack. Targeting based on possesion of some item of the target would also be permited, possibly using a metamagic. Voodoo doll based magic could be fun.

This brings me on to AC. There is no mundane way to boost your base touch AC that doesn't involve taking levels. none (ok, there is dodge). Years of adventuring don't seem to teach the fighter to get out of the way of things. Also, that magically enhanced steel plate that you carry around doesn't seem to affect spells. An ordinary steel plate blocks line of effect, but if you are holding it it has no effect whatsoever. I really don't see why spells should be touch attacks, if they need line of effect. Shield bonus should apply at the very least. Actually I can't think of many situations where your shield bonus would not affect touch attacks (incoporial is all I can come up with off the top of my head. A shield would help against somebody trying to grab you for example)

Possible armour fix:

Spoiler

Show

work in progress

One way armour could work that only moderately increases dice rolling is by having a chance to bypass the DR that it gives. This could also introduce some variety into the effects of different types of armour, as well as giving options for different effects.

Partial DR: Together with every attack you also roll an armour dice. If this dice beats the armours coverage value then the armour does nothing. If it does not then the armour acts as damage reduction. This prevents armour ever making someone invulnerable, while keeping it effective.
example armours:
full plate. DR 10 with a coverage of 19
half plate DR 10 with a coverage of 17
Banded mail. DR 8 coverage 17
Splint mail. DR 7 coverage 17

Breastplate DR 10 coverage 11
Chainmail DR 5 coverage 19
scale mail DR 8 coverage 11
Hide DR 3 coverage 17

chain shirt DR 5 coverage 11
Studded leather DR 3 coverage 15
leather DR 3 coverage 11
padded DR 1 coverage 17

Precise strike feat. A character may take a penalty to hit for a round to increase his armour rolls by an equal amount, up to his BAB.

Next up for me is that the melee focused guy will not be much tougher than the mage. Most mages use con as their second stat, and are much more able to buff it themselves. That +1 ability every 4 levels will almost never go on a secondary stat, so a martial character will generally not end up much more agile or tough.

I definately have to agree with cnsvnc about the unlimited magic thing though. I am currently working on a setting that gets rid of that, that I will post soon. It basically treats the per day casting limits like a bank account's daily spending limits. Getting anywhere near that limit regularly will render you broke very quickly, but when you need money fast they are the relevant constraint.

[Carl]

I feel the need to quibble your statement about mages having greater range. Any mook with a heavy crossbow can hit out to 1200ft. Add in far shot and they can hit 300ft with only a -2. If they are allowed basic magic then accuracy oil means they can hit 640ft with only a -4, and 1280ft at a -10. At 6th level 640ft is the range of a fireball, and 1280ft is the absolute max range you can expect the mage to be able to do anything at, with the vast majority of spells being considerably shorter range. (other than fire a crossbow back, but even then only if they are a warmage).

Wrong. An extended long range spell is 800ft + 80ft per caster level and basic core can push that to 23 by 20th, letting you reach out to 2640Ft.

Certainly there are a lot of spells that can't do that, but really if your throwing anything more than a couple hundred feet in D&D your starting to create issues.

[Eulalios]

Re the Merlin / Naruto disjunct in representations of magic, it's fair to point out that Western / Euro traditions of magic typically involve lengthy rituals requiring little physical exertion, whereas Eastern / Asia qi powers as seen in anime often arise from perfection of meditative martial forms which therefore require physical stamina to support them.

[ace rooster]

Wrong. An extended long range spell is 800ft + 80ft per caster level and basic core can push that to 23 by 20th, letting you reach out to 2640Ft.

Certainly there are a lot of spells that can't do that, but really if your throwing anything more than a couple hundred feet in D&D your starting to create issues.

When casters are throwing around caster level 20 they can finally match the range of a distance crossbow, (Distance greatbow goes to 2600ft if we are going non core). At that point casters are also throwing around wish and gate, so not being able to make the range is the least of their worries. Even with +3 caster level you are needing to be level 17 (capable of 9th level spells) before you can hit a range of 2400ft, which you can get with a standard heavy crossbow with accuracy oil (50gp for the oil, for 110gp total). You can afford that at level 2. This is before you even start on the interaction between far shot and distance weapons.

I will grant you that between the levels of 17 to 21 (when an archer can get distant shot), a mage can out-range an archer, at least with his direct damage evocations, using metamagic, if the DM rules that far shot and distance do not stack at all, and we restrict ourselves to core. If you can find a way to get a range of 2400ft at level 14 that doesn't stink of cheese then I would love to hear it.

[Carl]

If you can find a way to get a range of 2400ft at level 14 that doesn't stink of cheese then I would love to hear it.

Don't need to. Core only allows you to go out to 1800ft, (far shot is a 1.5 multiplier on range increment for non-thrown weapons, not double). Getting that with metamagic is doable at caster level 13. I should also point out that even your distance greatbow has a massive to hit penalty at the kind of distances where talking here, unless your shooting something way below your level you've bugger all chance of actually doing anything where's a spell is just as dangerous as at 10ft range.

[ace rooster]

Don't need to. Core only allows you to go out to 1800ft, (far shot is a 1.5 multiplier on range increment for non-thrown weapons, not double). Getting that with metamagic is doable at caster level 13. I should also point out that even your distance greatbow has a massive to hit penalty at the kind of distances where talking here, unless your shooting something way below your level you've bugger all chance of actually doing anything where's a spell is just as dangerous as at 10ft range.

Far shot only increases 50%, but the distance enhancement doubles it. Due to strange wording they may stack in some way.

You will have at least one in 20, and using basic magic you can get back to reasonable to hit values with true strike. Even the one in 20 is enough to win any firefight if the opponent cannot do anything in return, and you have enough ammunition. Mages are generally very mobile, so keeping them at range is difficult, but the fact that the mage has to follow you (abandoning his position) is a demonstration that he does not have a range advatage. At most ranges he is at an advantage, but at extreme range he is not, and is forced to close range.

[1pwny]

This brings me on to AC. There is no mundane way to boost your base touch AC that doesn't involve taking levels. none (ok, there is dodge). Years of adventuring don't seem to teach the fighter to get out of the way of things. Also, that magically enhanced steel plate that you carry around doesn't seem to affect spells. An ordinary steel plate blocks line of effect, but if you are holding it it has no effect whatsoever. I really don't see why spells should be touch attacks, if they need line of effect. Shield bonus should apply at the very least. Actually I can't think of many situations where your shield bonus would not affect touch attacks (incoporial is all I can come up with off the top of my head. A shield would help against somebody trying to grab you for example)

Possible armour fix:

Spoiler

Show

work in progress

One way armour could work that only moderately increases dice rolling is by having a chance to bypass the DR that it gives. This could also introduce some variety into the effects of different types of armour, as well as giving options for different effects.

Partial DR: Together with every attack you also roll an armour dice. If this dice beats the armours coverage value then the armour does nothing. If it does not then the armour acts as damage reduction. This prevents armour ever making someone invulnerable, while keeping it effective.
example armours:
full plate. DR 10 with a coverage of 19
half plate DR 10 with a coverage of 17
Banded mail. DR 8 coverage 17
Splint mail. DR 7 coverage 17

Breastplate DR 10 coverage 11
Chainmail DR 5 coverage 19
scale mail DR 8 coverage 11
Hide DR 3 coverage 17

chain shirt DR 5 coverage 11
Studded leather DR 3 coverage 15
leather DR 3 coverage 11
padded DR 1 coverage 17

Precise strike feat. A character may take a penalty to hit for a round to increase his armour rolls by an equal amount, up to his BAB.

Yeah, I like the points you made. The armor fix was good too, but personally I would call it a tad complicated. I would actually go for something like this:

Spoiler: Quick Armor Fix

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Armor Fix (made in 2 seconds):

Instead of an AC, you have 2 stats.

TDB (total dodge bonus) = Base Reflex + Dex mod + Dodge + BAB/2 + misc. modifiers
TAB (total armor bonus) = Armor Bonus + Nat. Armor + misc. modifiers

You would get a chance to dodge any attack with a TDB + d20, and if you fail you get your TAB to DR.

I don't want to go into other stuff, but someone else (get the pun?) could figure out if the TAB and TDB thing is usable. Actually, now that I'm looking at what goes into the TAB, it seems a little low at high levels.

Maybe you could do something like in LOL, where armor gives you percent damage reduction?

I don't know.

[ace rooster]

Yeah, I like the points you made. The armor fix was good too, but personally I would call it a tad complicated. I would actually go for something like this:

Spoiler: Quick Armor Fix

Show

Armor Fix (made in 2 seconds):

Instead of an AC, you have 2 stats.

TDB (total dodge bonus) = Base Reflex + Dex mod + Dodge + BAB/2 + misc. modifiers
TAB (total armor bonus) = Armor Bonus + Nat. Armor + misc. modifiers

You would get a chance to dodge any attack with a TDB + d20, and if you fail you get your TAB to DR.

I don't want to go into other stuff, but someone else (get the pun?) could figure out if the TAB and TDB thing is usable. Actually, now that I'm looking at what goes into the TAB, it seems a little low at high levels.

Maybe you could do something like in LOL, where armor gives you percent damage reduction?

I don't know.

I don't think it is that complicated, using a single extra dice roll (with very few modifiers) that can be done with the attack, against a flat DC. I'm probably explaining it badly, but the idea is that it can be done in exactly the same time as a standard attack once you get slick at it.

The thing about rolling a dodge is that it is functionally equivilent to assuming an AC of 20 + stuff, and then rolling 2D20 + attack modifier against it. It gives you a different distribution to the flat d20, and makes the stats a little harder, but the main impact is that you are less likely to hit anything that required a 12 to 18, and more likely to hit anything that needed an 19 or 20.

The reflex thing is a nice idea, but at low levels it means that rogues are better at dodging than combat trained characters, and multiclassing can boost your AC to crazy values. I don't think that is what it is supposed to reflect.

The low values can easily be modified by assuming that enhancement bonuses are doubled or tripled for example. Also, the damage values that are thrown around here are generally very high. For reference, DR 13 (+5 full plate) would basically nullify the claws and wings of an adult red dragon, and take the edge off the bite and tail. Regularly throwing around 30+ damage is not supposed to be normal (except for casters. They really gave casters all the love).

I don't like the idea of percentage damage reduction, because it strikes me as hard to work with. The same effect could be achieved by granting extra hit points, which is also viable, but I like the idea of daggers completely bouncing off most of the time (but not all the time).

[JennTora]

Physical abilities are irrelevant to magic? Well, yeah. I mean magic can easily be a purely mental action where you will energies around to work how you want them to, in fact this is usually how I think of it.

Melee doesn't have nice things? Yes. They should be given nice things. I'm rather fond of the mythos classes on here actually. A bellator looks much better beside a wizard than the standard fighter. So here's what I suggest, is your campaign high powered? Then the players should be bellators and teramachs and wizards and sorcerers. Is it low powered? Then it should be war mages and dread necromancers and fighters and barbarians and rogues. Simple. Simple enough anyway. Though lots of DMs don't allow homebrew easily I guess. I've kind of been spoiled in my group where basically any 3.p content ever that isn't horribly and ridiculously broken is allowed.

Armor class... Yeah it's stupid but it's even worse than you made it sound to be honest.

First you have HP. They just represent your health, right? So incredibly wrong. Apparently they also represent morale. Except that's also represented by morale bonuses to AC. Oh and your ability to dodge... Which is again also represented by AC. And reflex saves of course. And then you have DR. Which is like thick skin or the ability to heal quickly, but thick skin is also represented by natural armor, and the ability to heal quickly is surprisingly also represented by fast healing. In conclusion, did no one at WoTC ever talk to each other when they made d&d? Did one guy make the AC rules and one guy make the HP rules and when they were done they just threw them together without saying a word to each other?

I think you'd have to rewrite all the armor/HP/Dr stuff from scratch just to make something sensible. Maybe you could get close by splitting AC into DR provided by armor and natural armor, and defense which is like standard AC. But you'd still have to explain why your 40 hit points allow you to take a bullet to the face and not die. A damage track like m&m or wound progression like wod makes a lot more sense, but you'd have to figure out new standard numbers for armor.

[Stellar_Magic]

Well, armor in the real world does both... It increases the chance of an attack being deflected away from the target (bonus to AC) and negates some of the strikes that are not deflected away from the target (Damage Reduction). At the same time, Damage Reduction from armor should not be applied to critical hits, as most armor does not provide total protection.

This is why the Unearthed Arcana variant rules for Damage Reduction from Armor effectively split the bonus, giving half as DR and the other half as an AC bonus.

If you had a wound track (save vs. damage) like in M&M or condition track like in Saga Edition (threshold based) the most logical way to handle armor would be to make it so armor provides a bonus to Fortitude saves against damage or a bonus to Damage Threshold, so that the severity of a strike's damage is reduced.

However, this still doesn't account for armor's ability to deflect blows away from the strike.

[VoxRationis]

Also, I'd like to point out that while the "magic just appears" complaint is true for many spells, it's not true for all of them, and not the one used as an example! The Fireball spell appears as a golden orb coming out of your hand and travels along a trajectory you set when you cast the spell. If the target is behind an arrow slit or similar small opening, you need to make an attack roll to fit the orb through.

[jqavins]

That said you do hit an important point. in D&D 3.5 all casters care about is con for HP and one mental stat for casting, physical classes care about con for HP's and both the physical stats for other reasons. That's an inherent imbalance.

Casters use Dex for AC just as much as fighters do. On one hand maybe AC is a little less important to a caster who isn't in melee much, but Dex can be more important since they can't use armor for AC. Basically, everyone needs Dex and Con, regardless of class.

This brings me on to AC. There is no mundane way to boost your base touch AC that doesn't involve taking levels. none.

OK, I must be missing something. Why should there be? Why is this a problem?

[ace rooster]

Casters use Dex for AC just as much as fighters do. On one hand maybe AC is a little less important to a caster who isn't in melee much, but Dex can be more important since they can't use armor for AC. Basically, everyone needs Dex and Con, regardless of class.

OK, I must be missing something. Why should there be? Why is this a problem?

Touch AC not scaling is a problem because many attacks that are crippling use touch AC. A str 22 level one orc with a potion of enlarge person and a flail making trip attacks is as effective against epic characters as level 1s. A good BAB will help you with in a grapple, but touch AC is what stops somebody starting one. Mooks throwing achemists fire (and other alchemical energy) don't get any less effective. As you go up levels the enemies get bigger and stronger, meaning trips and grapples get more effective against PCs. This is before you consider mages at all, who's touch attacks become more of a certainty as you go up levels.

Basically having offence scale but not defence means that combat gets progressively more rocket taggy. This forces players to use ubercharger builds, and end combats in a single round. This makes for dull combats, with all decisions being done at build time. I view this as a problem, or at least something that could be improved.

[JennTora]

Casters use Dex for AC just as much as fighters do. On one hand maybe AC is a little less important to a caster who isn't in melee much, but Dex can be more important since they can't use armor for AC. Basically, everyone needs Dex and Con, regardless of class.

The thing is a full caster has that one ability score that they can pump to max, a couple of others that would be great to have but they won't necessarily fail without, and a couple others they don't care about beyond rp. A wizard has it harder without high Dex, but there are quite a few spells that can avoid it being a game ender.

Fighters need, truly need Str, Dex, and Con. But they also could use wisdom to avoid being mind controlled or paralyzed in a fight. And they need high intelligence if they want to be good at something other than smashing stuff.

Basically having offence scale but not defence means that combat gets progressively more rocket taggy. This forces players to use ubercharger builds, and end combats in a single round. This makes for dull combats, with all decisions being done at build time. I view this as a problem, or at least something that could be improved.

Never really thought about that but that's definitely true.

I really don't see why spells should be touch attacks, if they need line of effect.

Well some should, since fire is hot, and ice is cold, and steel is conductive.

Some shouldn't. And it should really be on a case by case basis. Certain materials should block spells. A magic shield should probably inherently grant some degree of SR.

[Carl]

Casters use Dex for AC just as much as fighters do. On one hand maybe AC is a little less important to a caster who isn't in melee much, but Dex can be more important since they can't use armor for AC. Basically, everyone needs Dex and Con, regardless of class.

No they don't, casters don't take melee or ranged attacks in 95% of situations they don;t want to, and no amount of dex stacking a caster can do will have the slightest effect on ranged touch attack rolls.

If it can't fly it can't melee.

If it's a normal ranged attack 95% are rendered lol worthy damage wise by a simple stone skin. Otherwise Miss chance, Illusionary doubles, and the flat out immunity of wind wall gets rid of it. A very small, (probably sub 1%), of ranged attacks have an attack powerful enough to bypass both wind wall and stoneskin whilst being on a character/monster that can reasonably get past miss chances and illusions.

Literally Dex is utterly irrelevant to casters in the vast majority of situations. Even then so long as they have a non-negative Dex score, (totally doable), the maximum AC variance from a fighter et/al is quite low, less than 8 points usually.

A Martial on the other hand gets all his defense against ranged and melee near entirely from his AC score so maxing his dex as much as possible to get as high an AC as he can is really vital. But without good strength you have no damage, and without con no HP's.

[silphael]

Well some should, since fire is hot, and ice is cold, and steel is conductive.

Some shouldn't. And it should really be on a case by case basis. Certain materials should block spells. A magic shield should probably inherently grant some degree of SR.

Common misconception, steel being conductive should protect people from electricity, not make them vulnerable to it... but yeah, touch AC is the worst idea ever, while i can understand the use for it at low level : allowing casters to touch anything, at higher level it should scale better.

[JennTora]

Common misconception, steel being conductive should protect people from electricity, not make them vulnerable to it... but yeah, touch AC is the worst idea ever, while i can understand the use for it at low level : allowing casters to touch anything, at higher level it should scale better.

I was talking about heat and cold. As in holding a steel shield that just got blasted with fire would hurt because steel conducts heat, since you're touching the now very hot shield.

As for touch AC, again certain things should hurt just by touching you so it's not a crazy idea, just implemented incorrectly.

[1pwny]

The reflex thing is a nice idea, but at low levels it means that rogues are better at dodging than combat trained characters, and multiclassing can boost your AC to crazy values. I don't think that is what it is supposed to reflect.

Well, I made this fix in, like, 2 seconds. It's not playtested at all. But to counter your point, think of it like this, from a fluff standpoint.
- A Rogue would have, in theory, been doing things like picking pockets for years as a citizen and thus eventually became classed as a 'Rogue' after building up enough skill.
- Fighter would have been normal, then went into Fighter's school. Over time, he'll have enough training to be able to dodge more attacks, thus represented by the "1/2 BAB" part of the TDB.

I was talking about heat and cold. As in holding a steel shield that just got blasted with fire would hurt because steel conducts heat, since you're touching the now very hot shield.

Exactly. But still, getting burned through your clothes is much better than being hit in the face by a giant ball of fire, and thus, at least partial DR should be given to he who holds the shield.

Basically the only reason I suggested Armor giving percentage DR is so that it could easily apply to both spells and melee attacks, which have completely different damage spectrums.

[Carl]

I was talking about heat and cold. As in holding a steel shield that just got blasted with fire would hurt because steel conducts heat, since you're touching the now very hot shield.

As for touch AC, again certain things should hurt just by touching you so it's not a crazy idea, just implemented incorrectly.

Here's the thing. we allready know from Arcane casters that big amounts of metal can mess up magical energies. If we assume Divine is different in how it's manipulated at the caster end rather than different at the impact end the same would apply to any caster. At which point the whole point of touch AC goes out the window because almost everything else that is a touch attack than isn't magic tends to rely on overpowering any defense, and could thus be more correctly shifted to reflex.

In the end it barely matters though because there's 100% no way you will ever balance touch AC. The difference should be 10 points between the two given all all balanced full casters are half bab. But because there's so many ways of putting together your AC and some of them take significant penalties to AC from touch attacks whilst others take modest penalties there's no way you'll make that happen, never mind that with monsters getting most of their AC from natural armor there's no method short of stupid AC inflation on monsters to counteract that.

[JennTora]

Here's the thing. we allready know from Arcane casters that big amounts of metal can mess up magical energies.

We do? How do we know that again?

[Network]

We do? How do we know that again?

I think Carl is saying that metal in armor is the cause of arcane spell failure chance, even though the SRD explicitely states that it is obstruction of movement, not metal, which is responsible for it:

Arcane Spell Failure
Armor interferes with the gestures that a spellcaster must make to cast an arcane spell that has a somatic component. Arcane spellcasters face the possibility of arcane spell failure if they’re wearing armor. Bards can wear light armor without incurring any arcane spell failure chance for their bard spells.

The only case of metal hindering magic in D&D is cold iron, and it is not impervious to it, either: it's just more costly to enhance it.

Edit: Forgot the druid. The druid can't wear metal armor, the explanation being that it is somehow not natural and they made a vow not to use it. Except druids can still perfectly carry tons of metal, and if they aren't wearing it as an armor, they won't lose their magic.

[JennTora]

Ah, okay. I actually kind of get that since metal interfering with magical energy makes (a tiny amount) more sense than "oops, I didn't wiggle my fingers correctly *fizzle*"

Yeah metal being unnatural has got to be in the top ten of incredibly ridiculous fluff.

[silphael]

Well, I made this fix in, like, 2 seconds. It's not playtested at all. But to counter your point, think of it like this, from a fluff standpoint.
- A Rogue would have, in theory, been doing things like picking pockets for years as a citizen and thus eventually became classed as a 'Rogue' after building up enough skill.
- Fighter would have been normal, then went into Fighter's school. Over time, he'll have enough training to be able to dodge more attacks, thus represented by the "1/2 BAB" part of the TDB.

Fluff shouldn't limit things : there is NO such thing as "fighter's school" except the one called war/strife, whatever form it may take. For the rogue you mean having 4 ranks in sleight of hand? I still don't get why the guy trained in war should be easier to hit... I really mean it, look more in the direction of movies and books, nearly every fighting style works with avoiding you being hit, because one hit is usually enough to put you down. D&D isn't working that way, HP aren't life, they are morale, health, sheer will, and so on all mixed together : HP represent that training as well.

Exactly. But still, getting burned through your clothes is much better than being hit in the face by a giant ball of fire, and thus, at least partial DR should be given to he who holds the shield.

Basically the only reason I suggested Armor giving percentage DR is so that it could easily apply to both spells and melee attacks, which have completely different damage spectrums.

Yet percentile is really hard to calculate efficiently. Quarters could work, though.

[VoxRationis]

Ah, okay. I actually kind of get that since metal interfering with magical energy makes (a tiny amount) more sense than "oops, I didn't wiggle my fingers correctly *fizzle*"

Yeah metal being unnatural has got to be in the top ten of incredibly ridiculous fluff.

Point 1: No, because some spells require metal spell components, and something interfering with your ability to perform the gestures you NEED to use to cast a spell is a perfectly legitimate reason for a spell to fail. How well can you type in stiff metal gauntlets? How well can you sew?

Point 2: Weapons and armor restrictions are easier to implement than playing the game of "does X magical item have metal in it?" Metal is much, much less "natural," in the mythic/cultural sense of the term, than plant fibers or animal skins, in that a) metalworking was invented after much more time spent in "civilization" than fibers or skins, and b) metal armor requires large amounts of infrastructure and huge ecological costs in terms of the mining, smelting, and smithing.