Goliath Liberator

[Spartan_Samuel]

What're the best classes to lead into the Goliath Liberator? Currently I'm sticking with Ranger for seven levels (starting level of the campaign) and then I'll do the Liberator deal. (Hint: Races of Stone splat book)

[Talya]

Liberator? As in the holy liberator PrC? (CG Paladin, basically)

[Amiria]

No, the PrC in question is the Goliath Liberator. It has nothing to do with the Holy Liberator.

Ranger 7 is ok. The example build of Ranger 3 / Barbarian 4 is also ok. Ranger 5 / Fighter 2 is good for feats.

If the ToB is allowed, I'd go Ranger 2 / Warblade 5.

[Spartan_Samuel]

What perks exactly would the Warblade give me? I don't have the book handy... :(

[Amiria]

A link to the Warblade excerpt at WotC.

A link to the Maneuver Cards web enhancement at WotC. It gives detailed information about all maneuvers and stances.

[Ikkitosen]

Wouldn't a ranger 2 / warblade 5 suffer an xp penalty though?

[Amiria]

So what ? You fall one level behind the rest of the group with the xp penalty. Then you get more xp for the encounters then the rest of the group and catch up again. A yo-yo effect, but nothing crippling.

As a house rule we we ignore xp penalties in my RL groups. They are just some leftovers from 2nd edititon classicism/racism.

[Aximili]

Actually, after 20 levels of experience penalty, you're left 2 levels behind the rest (18). Sure, you need less XP to level up, but you still get the same amount of XP as everyone else.

In this case, the guy would start taking penalty at 6th level tops. And that still means 2 levels behind.

And why not go with warblade 3/ Ranger 3? You'll have one less feat, but you still reach 2nd level manuevers and you avoid the penalty all together.

[Amiria]

Warblade 4 / Ranger 3 (you need a BAB of +7 for Goliath Liberator) if you want to avoid xp penalties. You get your second stance and can exchange one of your 1st level maneuvers for a 2nd level maneuver.

I'd take Stonefoot Stance and Hunter's Sense as stances; Sudden Leap, Wolf Fang Strike, Leading the Attack, Wall of Blades, and Mountain Hammer as maneuvers.

Having the Endurance feat from Ranger 3 is also nice. Not only for its inherent benefits but also because it is a it is a prerequisite feat for Die Hard and Steadfast Determination.

[Aximili]

Warblade 4 / Ranger 3 (you need a BAB of +7 for Goliath Liberator)

Yeap. My mistake.

Anyway, ranger levels give you 1/2 initiator level. Now, I'm not sure I got it right (it's been a while since I read that chapter of ToB and I don't have it with me now), but I think that stacks with warblade levels to see what manuevers you can learn. So, if you went with:
1 Ranger1
2 Ranger2
3 Warblade1
4 Warblade2
5 Ranger3
6 Warblade3
7 Warblade4

...You would have an IL of 5 at 7th level, allowing you to learn 3rd level manuevers with that 4th Warblade level.

(if somebody could please confirm this information, I'm not sure of it.)

[Person_Man]

I don't own RoS, but I've read it months ago. Can someone give a brief summary of their primary abilities?

Also, here's the Goliath for anyone who's not familiar. Are you starting the game at 7th level, or ECL 7? Because if its ECL 7, you should remember the +1 LA for being a Goliath.

[Spartan_Samuel]

Ah! I thought it was +0! Well then my Ranger 7 build is out the window for the PrC Goliath Liberator. Will the Warblade up my BAB to +7 by by the time I'm ECL 7?

[Person_Man]

Ah! I thought it was +0! Well then my Ranger 7 build is out the window for the PrC Goliath Liberator. Will the Warblade up my BAB to +7 by by the time I'm ECL 7?

If you're a LA 0 race, then a Warblade 7 would have a +7 BAB at ECL 7.

But Goliath Warblade 6 would still be pretty good. Human Warblade 7 would be stronger, but then you couldn't be a Goliath Liberator.

[Amiria]

@ Axmili: Yes, this would work. With your progression he could then have:

One 1st level stance
Two 1st level maneuvers
Two 2nd level maneuvers
One 3rd level stance
One 3rd level maneuver

@ Person Man

A Goliath Liberator is a ranger based PrC specialized in battling giants. Its class abilities are: Favored enemy (giants), avoid thrown weapons, improved trip, and avoid reach.

[Person_Man]

@ Person Man

A Goliath Liberator is a ranger based PrC specialized in battling giants. Its class abilities are: Favored enemy (giants), avoid thrown weapons, improved trip, and avoid reach.

Thanks.

Avoid Thrown Weapons, Improved Trip, and Avoid Reach sound useful. Though Reach AoOs can usually be easily defeated using Tumble. Not sure why you'd want to be a Ranger to enter to enter the class, unless there's a Favored Enemy entry requirement or something. Warblade or Fighter/Barbarian would be a much better choice.

If you get Improved Trip, then Knock-Down should be one of your next feat choices.

[Amiria]

Favored Enemy isn't a requirement for Goliath Liberator. But 5 ranks in Hide and Move Silently and the Track feat are requirements.

[Aximili]

If he doesn't mind cross class skills, he can get all that at 7th level going full warblade.

[Person_Man]

Favored Enemy isn't a requirement for Goliath Liberator. But 5 ranks in Hide and Move Silently and the Track feat are requirements.

Ah. Then I would probably go Warblade 6/Wildshape Ranger 1/Liberator X.

The dip into Ranger is to gain Track and Skills. If you're only going to dip one level into Ranger, then the Wildshape variant is better, because it grants Barbarian Fast Movement on the first level. Most people would argue that if you're going to dip into Ranger, you should take two levels and get free Two Weapon Fighting, but Two Weapon Fighting sucks unless you have bonus dice to damage (typically Sneak Attack). He should be focusing on Power Attack with a big two handed weapon.

[Spartan_Samuel]

I'm on the schools computer and with the web-blocker I can't access any resources; will the Warblade 6/Wildshape Ranger 1 net me a +7 BAB? I just want to make sure that the next time I level up that I can just jump right into the Goliath Liberator scheme. I definently like the Barbarian Fast Movement though, and you're right, with the large greataxe I plan on buying I'm pretty sure I won't need the TWF tree. Thanks for the help guys!

[Person_Man]

I'm on the schools computer and with the web-blocker I can't access any resources; will the Warblade 6/Wildshape Ranger 1 net me a +7 BAB? I just want to make sure that the next time I level up that I can just jump right into the Goliath Liberator scheme. I definently like the Barbarian Fast Movement though, and you're right, with the large greataxe I plan on buying I'm pretty sure I won't need the TWF tree. Thanks for the help guys!

Warblade and Wildshape Ranger are both full BAB classes. So yes, it will net you +7 BAB at ECL 8 as a Goliath.

Also, you might want to go Wildshape Ranger 1/Warblade 6 instead, because it will net you more Skill points at 1st level, but your Hide and Move Silently ranks would be lower because of max Skill per level restrictions.

[Aximili]

Going with ranger first grants you 6 more skill points than going with Warblade first. But the latter grants you 2 more HP for maximizing hit dice.
I'd go with the skills, but I don't know which you'd prefer...

And just to remind you: Ranger 1/Warblade 6 has XP penalty and gives you access to the same manuevers as the Ranger 3/Warblade 4 (which has no penalty).

[Amiria]

Yeah, those xp penalties. I still think that the standard ranger / warblade with Axmili's progression is very good. Full attacks for Two-Weapon Fighting are easy to make with the Sudden Leap maneuver.

And I really recommend the Steadfast Determination feat - with a high Constituiton score you can use Wisdom as a dump stat. Sure, it hurts some of your skills and you'll never get rangery spellcasting, but that's not a big problem.

After the 5 levels of Goliath Liberator you should take levels in other PrCs (i.e. Bloodclaw Master (ToB)) or barbarian to avoid those scary xp penalties.

[Aximili]

Exactly, Ranger 3 fills your prerequisites for Steadfast determination. And I think we all know how bad it is to suck at will save. Specially since he's gonna multiclass between 3 poor will save classes.

Considering he's not planing on investing on the ranger side, wisdom will be yet another dump stat.

Sure, TWF is not the most effective way of fighting. But it's just one feat, he doesn't have to go with it, and still, if he does, he'll qualify for bloodclaw master.

[Rigeld2]

After the 5 levels of Goliath Liberator you should take levels in other PrCs (i.e. Bloodclaw Master (ToB)) or barbarian to avoid those scary xp penalties.

PrCs dont count as far as XP penalties are concerned.

[Amiria]

That's what I said. He should take any PrC or the Goliath's favored class (=> barbarian) to avoid xp penalties.

He shouldn't advance ranger and/or warblade since this would incur xp penalties. If he keeps those two classes withing one level of each other he wouldn't have xp penalties but it would be sub par, since ranger doesn't give him something really worthwhile.

[Rigeld2]

Thought you were saying that taking more than 5 levels of G.L. would give him an XP penalty - forgot it was a 5 level class.

[Spartan_Samuel]

Warblade and Wildshape Ranger are both full BAB classes. So yes, it will net you +7 BAB at ECL 8 as a Goliath.

Also, you might want to go Wildshape Ranger 1/Warblade 6 instead, because it will net you more Skill points at 1st level, but your Hide and Move Silently ranks would be lower because of max Skill per level restrictions.

Gah, but I need an ECl of 7.

[Thomas]

Actually, after 20 levels of experience penalty, you're left 2 levels behind the rest (18). Sure, you need less XP to level up, but you still get the same amount of XP as everyone else.

No you don't. Whenever you're one level behind the others, you get around 13-15% more XP (I forget the exact amount) for the same CR challenges (past the first three levels, that is).

What's the goliath's favored class, anyway?

[Rigeld2]

Barbarian
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