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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    cool The Tank - 3.5 Base Class

    The Tank


    Adventures: A Tank is usually a nice person, and goes out to protect others, whether they be friends or strangers.

    Characteristics: A Tank is big. Real big.

    Alignment: Any non-evil.

    Religion: Any.

    Background: A Tank is a big person with big armor and a big heart. They decided to throw all of those in front of the enemy.

    Races: Any.

    Other Classes: Tanks protect their comrades, regardless of who those comrades may be.

    Role: Tanking.

    Alignment: Any non-Evil
    Starting Gold: 3d6 x 10gp (max 180gp)
    Starting Age: Adult (as barbarian)
    Hit die: d12
    Skill points: 2 + Int
    Skill points first level: 4 x (2 + Int)

    Class Skills: A Tank has access to the following skills: Autohypnosis (wis), Climb (str), Concentration (con), Intimidate (cha), Jump (str), Swim (str).

    Tank
    Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special Effect Radius
    1
    +0
    +2
    +0
    +2
    Super Tough, Bonus Feat, People Person
    22 feet
    2
    +1
    +3
    +0
    +3
    Unencumbered
    24 feet
    3
    +1
    +3
    +1
    +3
    Anti-Armor-Piercing-Armor
    26 feet
    4
    +2
    +4
    +1
    +4
    Anti-Spell-Piercing-Skin
    28 feet
    5
    +2
    +4
    +1
    +4
    Spell Lightning Rod, Fickle as a Fiddle
    30 feet
    6
    +3
    +5
    +2
    +5
    Evasive Mettle
    32 feet
    7
    +3
    +5
    +2
    +5
    Bonus Feat
    34 feet
    8
    +4
    +6
    +2
    +6
    Bonus Feat
    36 feet
    9
    +4
    +6
    +3
    +6
    Bonus Feat
    38 feet
    10
    +5
    +7
    +3
    +7
    My Mind is My Own, Condition Resistance
    40 feet
    11
    +5
    +7
    +3
    +7
    Bonus Feat
    42 feet
    12
    +6/+1
    +8
    +4
    +8
    Bonus Feat
    44 feet
    13
    +6/+1
    +8
    +4
    +8
    Bonus Feat
    46 feet
    14
    +7/+2
    +9
    +4
    +9
    Bonus Feat
    48 feet
    15
    +7/+2
    +9
    +5
    +9
    Canít Kill This
    50 feet
    16
    +8/+3
    +10
    +5
    +10
    Bonus Feat
    52 feet
    17
    +8/+3
    +10
    +5
    +10
    Bonus Feat
    54 feet
    18
    +9/+4
    +11
    +6
    +11
    Bonus Feat
    56 feet
    19
    +9/+4
    +11
    +6
    +11
    Bonus Feat
    58 feet
    20
    +10/+5
    +12
    +6
    +12
    Hmm? What was that?
    60 feet

    IMPORTANT NOTICE: From here on out, whenever I mention a thing, I am referring to a spell, spell-like ability, psionic power, psi-like ability, or other similar things.

    Proficiencies: A Tank is proficient with Simple weapons and all Armor and Shields.

    Tank Radius: A Tank has a number of abilities that effect other things in a certain radius, called his Tank radius. His Tank radius is equal to 20 + 2*(Tank Level).

    Super Tough (ex): At every level, the Tank gains Toughness as a bonus feat automatically.

    Bonus Feats (ex): As a Tank, there are a few set feats you can gain over the course of your adventure to amazingness. They all make you extra Tanky, or give you special bonuses from Tankiness. You must have met all prerequisites before choosing a feat.

    Choices: Toughness, Pain Mastery, Endurance, Iron Will, Roll With It, Diehard, Improved Toughness, Great Fortitude, Steadfast Determination, Strong Stomach, Lightning Reflexes, Second Wind, Goad, Combat Reflexes, Standstill, Enduring Life, Lasting Life, Block Arrows, Armor Specialization, Active Shield Defense, Shield Ward, Danger Sense, Disease Immunity, Poison Healer, Poison Immunity, Quick Recovery, Font of Life

    People Magnet (ex): People are inexplicably drawn towards the Tank. As in, they are inexplicably, physically pulled towards him, for no real reason at all. A Tank can choose any and all enemies within his Tank radius. Those enemies may not make a move closer to the Tank without moving straight at the Tank, and cannot Threaten anyone but the Tank.

    For example, if there were a Rogue trying to Sneak Attack the Tankís Swordsage/party member, who was 5 squares away from the Tank, the Rogue would be forced to move directly at the Tank, and would have to miss the Swordsage completely.

    Unencumbered (ex): Thanks to your amazing bigness, you have gained the ability to put on as much weight as you need. Your Movement Speed is unaffected by any armor you wear, you take no Armor Check penalty, and sleeping in armor does not Fatigue you the next day.

    Anti-Armor-Piercing-Armor (ex): Armor is armor, as most can attest to. Activating this ability is a free action that can be taken prior to any attack. When it is active, your opponent(s) no longer has to make attack rolls, all attacks are assumed to hit. However, reduce any damage taken while this ability is active by (Armor bonus + Shield bonus + Enhancement + NA).

    Anti-Spell-Piercing Skin (ex): Spells always hit you. But they just donít DO anything. You can activate this ability just as you would Anti-Armor-Piercing-Armor. While this ability is active, you forfeit your Spell Resistance. However, reduce any spell damage you would take by your Spell Resistance.

    Spell Lightning Rod (ex): Spells are inexplicably drawn to you. When a thing would strike an ally within your Tank radius, you can choose to redirect it to yourself. You can do this for any number of allies within your range. You can also do this for multiple targets that would be hit by a single AoE spell. For example, if yourself and 2 allies would be struck by a single Fireball, you can choose to instead be hit 3 times by the Fireball, and your allies take no damage.

    Fickle as a Fiddle (ex): At 5th level, whenever you would be affected by a thing with a Permanent duration, you may roll a 1d4. If you get a 1, you are not affected by the thing. At level 10, rolling a 2 also counts as success. At level 15, rolling a 3 counts as a success. At level 20, you automatically succeed.

    Evasive Mettle (ex): The Tank becomes better at reducing the effects of magic on him. If the Tank makes a successful save (Fort, Ref, or Will) against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect.

    My Mind is My Own (ex): At 10th level, a Tank becomes immune to any mind-affecting things.

    Condition Resistance (ex): At higher levels, a Tank stops being affected by various conditions. At 10th level and each consecutive level, he can choose one of the following conditions, and becomes immune to it.
    • Ability Damaged/Drained/Burned
    • Blinded
    • Blown Away
    • Confused
    • Dazed
    • Dazzled
    • Deafened
    • Nauseated
    • Paralyzed
    • Sickened
    • Stunned


    Canít Kill This (ex): At 15th level, a Tank becomes immune to Death effects. The only way he can die is if he is reduced to low enough hit points that he dies.

    Hmm? What was That? (ex): A Tank, at 20th level, is the essence of Tank. He only Tanks, and refuses to do anything other than Tank. Thus, he is immune to any thing that does not do direct damage.
    Last edited by 1pwny; 2014-07-16 at 06:51 PM.
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    Default Re: The Tank - 3.5 Base Class

    I always liked playing the tank, for some reason.

    Anyway, I'm currently at work so I just gave this a quick look. However, something really caught my eye: your class suffers from the same problem that all other tanky classes do, the enemies can just ignore you.
    I mean, you do grant the ability to make all opponents target him at lvl 20 but, till then, they can just ignore you and attack all your friends, saving you and your amazing defensive skills for last...or ignoring you and letting you live, since you may not even be a nuisance to them.

    Perhaps give the capstone ability at first lvl (make the range scale, perhaps?) and create another capstone? Don't know, just random thoughts. Sorry if it didn't make sense.

    -Dyhmas
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    Default Re: The Tank - 3.5 Base Class

    Anti Spell-Piercing Skin is great, but you give no source of SR for them to give up.
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    Default Re: The Tank - 3.5 Base Class

    I'm bothered by the fact that most of these abilities do not allow for any resistance, especially the last one. Plus they can still be affected by Save-or-Suck spells, like Baleful Polymorph, or other debilitating effects, like Nausea or Paralysis. At that point, you're COMPLETELY useless. Not to mention Poison, which they seem to have no special resistance against. Also, where does their spell resistance come from? Without it, that particular ability is not only useless, but hurts you more than your enemies.
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: The Tank - 3.5 Base Class

    The skills list needs to be changed. Even if it is supposed to be bare bones, it could at least be at broad as the Barbarian or the Fighter.

    It....doesn't have the ability to use Shields? Really now?

    It doesn't have any class abilities that make it have more health? A d20 Hitdie is great but uh....it should somehow have bonus health that scales with class features or something.

    It doesn't have Mettle? But that's such a great Tank ability

    Spell Lightning Rod is too small. Specifically, at levels 5 - 9, it's only 5 ft away. That literally means the Tank is not a frontline character. It is a bulky meatshield that (paradoxically) sits at the backline to protect the squishes.

    It doesn't have any abilities that help it tank AoE effects. And it doesn't have any ability to redirect Non-Spell attacks. E.g. A Dragon breathes fire all over the Party Wizard. Mr. Tank stands nearby, completely unable to help tank that damage.

    Can't Kill This is awkwardly worded. If I understand correct...do you mean Save or Die spells/effects? Cause that's what's came to mind. In that case, it's called "Death effects" not "unnatural killing effects".

    How does this class not have the ability to fight while negative HP? The Knight gets that class feature, and the Knight isn't even that good of a Tank class!

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    Default Re: The Tank - 3.5 Base Class

    One of the things that makes tanks effective, in table-top RPGs with low hit point totals and high damage output (such as D&D 3.X), is the ability to output high damage (or at least noticeably high) and make themselves dangerous enough to demand attention. D&D 4e's (or similar) marking mechanism (or similar) provides additional incentive to target the tank (as well as setting up the dilemma of trying to get through the tank's beefy defences). This tank class does not seem to fit this bill.

    This tank also has no apparent class features that allow it to draw enemies' attention until 20th level. Also, is there any limit to its use? What kind of action is it? What does threaten mean in the context of the rule? The targeted opponents must be positioned such that the tank is in a space they threaten? Or they have to target the tank (or include it as a target) on their next action that inflicts damage or conditions/control on the tank & his or her allies?

    The class features table provides for 13 bonus feats, but the list of bonus feats in the class features text provides 9 feats, of which none (that I am aware of) provide any stickiness or battlefield control.

    As others have noted, the lack of shield proficiency (and no martial weapons?) is also very questionable. I mean, the stereotypical (one might say prototypical) tank is a sword & board warrior.

    The armour and spell effects the tank gets at level 3 & 4 need clarification. In addition to the question of the source of the spell resistance mentioned, what kind of action do you need to activate them? Is there any incentive not to have them active all the time? Or any limit on their use? When you say "reduce any damage taken while this ability is active by your AC", do you actually mean your whole AC or your armour bonus? AC of 25 is certainly achievable by level 3 with a bit of money investment (and a feat spent on shield proficiency). If that means DR 25 you basically can't take damage early on in the game, unless someone's laying down critical hits (and how does the ability interface with those?).
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: The Tank - 3.5 Base Class

    As others have mentioned, the Tank needs some ability to make enemies not ignore him. While your capstone is good, it kinda sucks having to wait 19 levels to be able to do your class' job.

    Your Armor Piercing armor also seems quite overpowered. Sure you're hit automatically, but it could easily give your well over 20 Damage Recuction at level 3.



    For inspiration, these are the abilities i have for tanking in my homebrew. They are feats in my system, since i want people to be able to tank with the core martial classes if they want to, but they could easily be used as class features.

    Taunting Strike: 5 times per day, When you attack and hit a character with a Taunting Strike he will, for one round, provoke an attack of opportunity from you if he attacks anyone but you, moves out of your threatened area (even with a 5ft step or a withdraw action) or casts a spell targeting anyone but himself or you.

    Mocking Blow: 5 times per day, When you hit an enemy with a Mocking Blow, he must succeed a will save DC: 10+Ĺlevel+Cha modifier* or be forced to attack you for 2 rounds. If you make it impossible for the enemy to attack you, this affect ends immediately.

    Hamstring: 5 times per day, when you hit an enemy with a Hamstring attack it becomes immobilized** for 1 round.

    *having power attack changes this to Str modifier, having Weapon Finess changes this to Dex modifier
    **Immobilized is a condition in my homebrew:
    You are immobilized and cannot move. You cannot take any actions that require movement, this includes any form of actual movement (such as flying, burrowing, swimming or normal movement), standing up from or dropping to Prone position, and taking 5-foot steps. You can still attack and cast spells as normal.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: The Tank - 3.5 Base Class

    As much as I hate to rip into something that was clearly made on the spur of the moment for fun, I have to echo what just about everyone else has been saying

    I get the distinct impression that this was intended as a sorta-joke class, a class so overly focused on tanking that it would be patently absurd. The problem is that this class isn't absurd because of how good it is at tanking. Instead, it's absurd because of how horrible it is at tanking. Literally everything that it needs to tank is gone.

    • It can't swim, climb, or jump. This means that it can only tank on level playing fields.
    • It doesn't have proficiency with shields.
    • The bonus feat list, while intending to be tanky, lacks out tons of defensive and tanky feats. You lack goad (which makes foes attack you), steadfast determination (which aids will and fort saves), standstill (which lets you stop an enemy's movement as an AoO), GREAT FORTITUDE (even though you have iron will), and more.
    • As mentioned, you do not reference what action it takes to activate these abilities, how often and for what duration they last, and often use terms that have no real meaning in-game (mind-affecting influences/unnatural killing effects is not D&D terminology).
    • The level 3 class feature is broken as hell (you will basically never take damage in melee ever again unless the opponent is ubercharging) and nobody has any reason to stay in this class afterwards.
    • You have no ability to get to allies in order to tank them.
    • You have no ability to actually make yourself a bit threat.
    • You have no way to protect others from non-damaging effects
    • You grant yourself a class feature that only works if you gain spell resistance from another source.
    • You can't make enemies want to attack you until level 20 and can't stop ranged attacks even then.
    • Several of the class features you put in don't even pretend to be extraordinary.


    This makes me sad because uber-tank classes are one of the easiest things to over-do in so many ways. You could have given a larger selection of bonus feats, bonus HP, have healing for your allies, bonus Constitution, give yourself fast healing or regeneration, give yourself and/or allies a scaling AC bonus or bonus to saves, give yourself SR, give yourself other immunities, create difficult terrain to stop enemies from ignoring you, give extra attacks of opportunity or bonuses with attacks of opportunity, shoot lasers out of your eyes whenever an enemy attacks someone else... seriously, there are tons of things that could be done to make a ridiculously over-tanky class. To see one that leaves me feeling underwhelmed makes me just feel kind of... sad.
    Last edited by Realms of Chaos; 2014-07-15 at 01:41 PM.
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    Default Re: The Tank - 3.5 Base Class

    I'll get to working on it soon. I'm being denied access to the computer at the moment. But yeah, I guess I'll have to do that soon.

    As for the feats, I basically just put down a bunch of feats that give you HP. If you guys have any other suggestions, please do give them.

    As I said earlier, when I get the chance, I'll start updating. Just be patient.
    I do stuff.

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    Default Re: The Tank - 3.5 Base Class

    Well, looking forward to it. Fortunately, you were given a ton of good advice. (as in the very organized list that Chaos provided)

    As a note on the feats, focusing on HP is not a very good idea for a tank. I mean, if it were, barbarians would be great tanks...wich they're not. Basically, being able to avoid damage (high CA, DR, SR, Reflex, Will, Fortitude, etc...) is better for a tank than being able to take more damage without falling.

    Mainly because there are tons of ways to make more damage than you could ever possibly have in HP, but luckily most of these ways don't work if you can evade/save/negate/etc...

    Just a couple more cents.

    -Dyhmas
    I have a tendency to babble...a lot. My posts'll probably be huge while not having much understandable information. Sorry about that.

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    Default Re: The Tank - 3.5 Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    *snip
    As for your suggested edits, I took a lot into consideration and made quite a few changes to the class. But as for the lack of uber-tanking...

    I kind of just made this class for HP...? It wasn't supposed to, you know, be the most effective tank ever, but it was more supposed to be just a plain tank. Tanks are, technically, just big masses of player that can take hits. They don't necessarily regen, block movement, or block mind control. But I felt like I wanted to make this class semi-useful, despite how useless your average game's tank is in D&D.
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: The Tank - 3.5 Base Class

    Wait so I'm confused....

    Is this supposed to be a "plain" Tank or an "effective" Tank? Is there supposed to be a difference....?

    You said it was only supposed to be a big bag of HP "that can take hits". Do you envisioning it:

    a. Taking hits meant for other classes

    b. Not dying if monsters decide to attack it first

    c. Being unhampered by spells or not caring if it gets hit by spells



    Like if he merely supposed to be a Tough Cookie (hard to put down) or a real Tank (has mechanics that allow it to protect teammates).



    Onto the critique!


    People Magnet....has no save? Really now?

    Tank Radius needs to specify what happens when you round (rounding normally results in rounding down)

    You keep on using this term called "thing" - shouldn't you use uh... ability (regardless of Ex, Su, or Sp)? Or...effects? Or....some other game term that doesn't sound so silly?

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: The Tank - 3.5 Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by somebody27else View Post
    As for your suggested edits, I took a lot into consideration and made quite a few changes to the class. But as for the lack of uber-tanking...

    I kind of just made this class for HP...? It wasn't supposed to, you know, be the most effective tank ever, but it was more supposed to be just a plain tank. Tanks are, technically, just big masses of player that can take hits. They don't necessarily regen, block movement, or block mind control. But I felt like I wanted to make this class semi-useful, despite how useless your average game's tank is in D&D.
    OH... this post kind of revealed a couple of things to me. First of all, what you are calling a tank, I typically think of as an "adamantine brick", a character built to be indestructible but that doesn't do much else. Most people, especially through MMOs and 4e, tend to think of tanking not so much as just the ability to take hits but the ability to naturally force that talent into usefulness (whether by building high aggro, punishing foes who leave, not letting foes leave, etc).

    As I can see that this is not really a joke-class (or at least that the class is partially serious) now, allow me to tell you that I've been here. Seriously, I produced the Survivalist base class a while ago and it was basically aimed at the same concept. With that said, I can tell you that I've learned a lot from that experience that I never got put fully into action.

    So, here's a bit of productive advice from my travails:

    1. You can add a decent chassis onto just about anything:

    One thing that I tried to do in many of my earlier classes (especially for this kind of specialty class) is trade out everything else from skills to offense to squeeze a bit more of that specialty out (whether it was speed or defense or whatever). What I learned when I started reading through thread after thread, however, is that doing so really wasn't required.

    Because the game assumes a basic level of offense, you can give a class with just about any level of specialization (even if it eventually moves so fast that it teleports or becomes literally invincible) with at least a mid-BAB and some form of offensive class feature. Because the game assumes that stuff happens out of combat, the same can be said about giving any class (even hyper-focused ones) 4 + Int skill points per level and 10 class skills. Because buffs exist in such great abundance, even saving throws can be thrown onto a class without problems.

    I'm not saying (at least at this point) that you have to tone down your defensiveness at all. I'm not saying that trading your chassis (BAB/Saves/Skills/Proficiencies) for more defensiveness is silly, either. What I'm saying is that trading your your chassis for more specialization... just isn't a thing. You can have your goodies and a decent base without being overpowered. No worries.

    As for what I'd specifically recommend, maybe mid-bab, proficiency with martial weapons, and some sort of offensive class feature for this guy (maybe something that plays into your hard-as-nails-ness like the steely resolve and furious counterattack of the crusader?).

    For Skills, maybe up to 4+Int and add Heal (for flavor), Diplomacy (to avoid fights altogether), Craft (because just about all classes have it), Profession (because just about all classes have it), Listen (hear ambush), and Spot (See hiding foe). And maybe sense motive (to detect someone wanting to hurt you)

    Finally, why not give this guy a good Reflex save? If it sounds like a bit too much, I remind you that the full-spellcasting favored soul gets all good saves so why shouldn't the the defense-focused Tank? If it sounds weird for a guy in so much armor, just be aware that as tanks get their full Dex to AC in armor early on, all good tanks will have Dex as their second-highest Stat after Con.

    2. Hit points =/= longevity

    This might sound counter-intuitive but the best way to go about making a tough-as-nails brick wall who can't be defeated may not be in raw defenses and high hit point totals. While having a lot of hit points is impressive and nothing beats staring a Balor in the face and telling them to take their best shot, having more hp than your party healer can effectively restore means that you have a limited buffer of hit points before you're on the same playing field as everyone else... without as much combat ability.

    To help you with this hit point problem. Perhaps consider alternatives that might help the tank remain in the fight almost indefinitely. Perhaps give the tank fast healing equal to 1/4 of your class level when under half of your maximum hp. Alternately, you can give the tank temporary hit points equal to its class level each round. If you need a secondary "offensive" attack, perhaps let the tank have certain effects when they completely absorb all of the damage from an attack (such as frightening the attacker if it fails a will save, damaging the weapon that was just used against them, or making a counterattack... or all three as you gain levels).

    With fast healing and/or temporary hit points, your tank will be able to keep fighting no matter how long a battle lasts or how many battles there are, far better than simply having 100 hp that won't come back in a hurry.

    3. Static defenses may lack pizazz

    On top of that, your HP total and most of the defenses you've listed are pretty static, requiring little input from you. While informing the tarrasque that it hits like a toddler is all very good, you don't actually have anything to do when it is time to take your action. In many ways, the role of a "brick wall" (as opposed to the modern tank) is to take hits and not move, which can be impressive to look at but is frequently less than awesome to play.

    While it may technically make your class weaker, I personally believe it would be a bit more fun in practice if you approached defensive class features asking yourself how someone could activate them. For Anti-armor-piercing-armor, for example, having the effect apply against one attack as an immediate action instead of applying it against all effects, you get a potent defense and interesting tactical decision instead of a super-powerful blanket defense. Similarly, targeting a single creature ahead of time with people magnet as a standard action (maybe taunting it or calling out a challenge or something?) would give you something to realistically do with your standard action for the round while making the class feature seem less... odd.

    Other Notes:
    • You can replace the term Thing with "Magical or Supernatural Abilities" (if you wish to specify that it works on psionics as well, you could just make a note at the end entitled: The Tank and Psionics or something.
    • Because distance is measured in 5-foot increments, the tank radius looks odd. Maybe start at 20 feet and increase by +5 feet at each odd level?
    • You can probably get rid of big. I can understand why you put it down but it's probably not necessary as you can just make your character as big and heavy as possible anyways.
    • Some of the conditions listed under condition resistance (especially fear effects) seem a little bit redundant as you're already immune to mind-affecting effects (and it's odd that you can't escape ability damage.
    • One notable ability that this tank lacks, and that would give it a good use for its hit points, is to "take one for the team". Maybe give the tank the ability to intercept some (or eventually all) of the damage a nearby ally would suffer? Would make more sense than the oddity of person magnet and spell lightning rod while accomplishing the same main end.
    • Additional feats to consider are Great Fortitude, Steadfast Determination, Strong Stomach, Lightning Reflexes, Second Wind, Goad, Lightning Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Reflexes, Standstill, Enduring Life, Lasting Life, Cumbersome Fortitude, Cumbersome Will, Cumbersome Reflexes, Block Arrows, Armor Specialization, Active Shield Defense, and Shield Ward, Improved Initiative, Danger Sense, Disease Immunity, Poison Healer, Force of Will, Mind over Body, Mental Resistance, Quick Recovery, Unnatural Will, Dive for Cover, Font of Life, Closed Mind. Also, I believe that both Dragon's toughness and remain conscious are 3.0 feats that were properly replaced in 3.5 (by improved toughness and diehard, respectively), meaning that they should probably be removed from the list.
    • Don't be afraid to go for the "mainstream" mundane defensive abilities like uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, or mettle.


    Good Luck to you with this class.
    Last edited by Realms of Chaos; 2014-07-15 at 11:19 PM.
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    Default Re: The Tank - 3.5 Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by JKTrickster View Post
    You keep on using this term called "thing" - shouldn't you use uh... ability (regardless of Ex, Su, or Sp)? Or...effects? Or....some other game term that doesn't sound so silly?
    What's the point of posting something non-serious without giving the reader a snort every so often?

    I'll get around to editing soon.

    By the way, thanks to Realms. He's being a big help. He also is very good at making criticism constructive. Thanks!
    Last edited by 1pwny; 2014-07-16 at 03:45 PM.
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    Default Re: The Tank - 3.5 Base Class

    I totally agree with all of Realms' comments. Really, he covered everything so completely that there is little more that I could say about the design of the class.

    A few specific mechanical issues:
    Hit Die: At 1st level, having 20 + Con hit points is rather unbalancing and would have a serious effect on gameplay. I think you should switch to a d12, and grant 3 extra hit points per class level as an extraordinary ability.

    Bonus Feats: This has probably been said before, but the bonus feat list is very, very poor and doesn't include many feats that might be useful for a tank.

    People Magnet: This ability is difficult to work with. It's not always easy to tell whether someone is moving closer to the tank, or which is the best "straight at" direction to move in. Sometimes you'd have to resort to the pythagorean theorem. It's unclear how this ability would work if you move closer to the tank as part of the movement, but further away from the tank in some other part of the movement. In general, it would create battlefiend scenarios that are incredibly difficult to manage.

    Spell Lightning Rod: How does it interact with AoE, touch spells, personal spells, and so forth? The word 'hit' is also unclear here. Maybe you should use 'targeted'. This probably isn't your intention, but this ability might also be used to 'redirect' buffs with touch range.

    Condition Resistance: A few of these conditions overlap, such as 'panicked' and 'cowering'. Being 'helpless' isn't a condition in itself; it's something that happens as a result of another condition, such as being paralyzed, being unconscious, or having 0 strength.

    Can't Kill This: Immune to death effects doesn't mean that someone can only die from hit point loss. Creatures can also die from Constitution loss, energy drain, drowning, and old age. Does this ability also render the tank immune to those?
    Last edited by Syne; 2014-07-16 at 05:32 PM.
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    Default Re: The Tank - 3.5 Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Syne View Post
    I totally agree with all of Realms' comments. Really, he covered everything so completely that there is little more that I could say about the design of the class.

    A few specific mechanical issues:
    Hit Die: At 1st level, having 20 + Con hit points is rather unbalancing and would have a serious effect on gameplay. I think you should switch to a d12, and grant 3 extra hit points per class level as an extraordinary ability.
    So basically d12 and Toughness every level? I can do that.

    Bonus Feats: This has probably been said before, but the bonus feat list is very, very poor and doesn't include many feats that might be useful for a tank.
    Working on it!

    People Magnet: This ability is difficult to work with. It's not always easy to tell whether someone is moving closer to the tank, or which is the best "straight at" direction to move in. Sometimes you'd have to resort to the pythagorean theorem. It's unclear how this ability would work if you move closer to the tank as part of the movement, but further away from the tank in some other part of the movement. In general, it would create battlefiend scenarios that are incredibly difficult to manage.
    Not really. In general, it means that you either move at the Tank in a strait line, or away from the Tank completely.

    Spell Lightning Rod: How does it interact with AoE, touch spells, personal spells, and so forth? The word 'hit' is also unclear here. Maybe you should use 'targeted'. This probably isn't your intention, but this ability might also be used to 'redirect' buffs with touch range.
    A lightning rod attracts any and all lightning. A Spell Lightning Rod attracts any and all spells, if the user so desires.

    Condition Resistance: A few of these conditions overlap, such as 'panicked' and 'cowering'. Being 'helpless' isn't a condition in itself; it's something that happens as a result of another condition, such as being paralyzed, being unconscious, or having 0 strength.
    I basically copied down 90% of the list of conditions from d20srd.org.

    Can't Kill This: Immune to death effects doesn't mean that someone can only die from hit point loss. Creatures can also die from Constitution loss, energy drain, drowning, and old age. Does this ability also render the tank immune to those?
    This was basically supposed to prevent death by any of those save-or-die spells, such as Circle of Death, Finger of Death, Power Word Kill and Wail of the Banshee
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    Default Re: The Tank - 3.5 Base Class

    Though this is a pretty decent tier4 I would not play this if I were looking for the same type of role.

    What you have built is something that can be attacked and that monsters must attack.

    This, is my opinion of what a tank is in a game that has terrible game design.

    For what I want out of a tank, it must be:

    Heavy, a tank (regardless of speed, as Tank vehicles go very very fast) must be able to crush opponents beneath them.

    Durable, a tank should probably have HD10+ and at least one good save.

    Strong, a tank needs to be able to be able to very capable at combat maneuvers, and as such needs either a high BAB or other ways to do those things. Furthermore, a "full tank" should be very apt at "kicking in the door" and "charging into action" somehow.

    Spank, a tank without spank is fine, but usually something has gone wrong at that point. This is the concept of "sword and board", a tank has a very large board but without a sword what are they doing?

    Lockdown, a tank needs to protect allies from harm and the best way to do this is to cause opponents from either not reaching the ally or by stopping their foes before they try.

    Saving Grace, I either want the ability to ruin an enemy's day or save an ally's life on purpose. A high level tank should probably have Breath of Life for this purpose.
    Last edited by Hanuman; 2014-07-17 at 04:14 AM.

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    Default Re: The Tank - 3.5 Base Class

    A few ideas stolen from my own, (unfinished and unpublished), defender class for your consideration.

    The core of making you go after this guy is that he gets to make attacks of opportunity against anyone within X (starts around 5 and scales with class level), range increments if they perform an action that would provoke an attack of opportunity normally or attack someone other than him. He may utilize any weaponry stored on his person for this threatening aura, and may retrieve any such weaponry from his pack without utilizing an action or provoking an AoO. if the target is fighting someone else the throw always hits the provoking target or misses entirely, it never hit the other combatant/s.

    Required upgrades, and useful secondary stuff include:

    A large 1/10th reduction in the weight of weapons for encumbrance purposes, maybe even eventually eliminating it entirely.

    A steadily rising bonus to un-enchanted weapon damage.

    The ability to throw weapon not normally throwable as if they where and possessed a 10ft range increment.

    Automatic confirmation of critical hits would be nice, but in the long run eliminating the attack roll requirement altogether would be far more useful.

    If your intent on making HP's a core tanking mechanic you need some method of capping maximum damage intake per round, and probably some means of boosting healing used on you.

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    Default Re: The Tank - 3.5 Base Class

    How does it fare against BFC spells like Solid Fog or Wall of Stone?
    What about 3D movement like Fly or Burrow?
    How does its spell magnet work with area spells and spells with range:personal or touch?

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    Default Re: The Tank - 3.5 Base Class

    A lightning rod attracts any and all lightning. A Spell Lightning Rod attracts any and all spells, if the user so desires.
    You're not really explaining what happens with personal effects and AoE. If he can redirect personal effects then it's broken, because many powerful personal spells and powers are somewhat balanced because they are personal. Consider things like Expansion, Righteous Might, and so forth. Allowing it to work with AoE would also have strange consequences, since those depend on being within a distance of the origin point.

    With the 20th level ability, this also makes the entire party completely immune to magic. You can actually make everyone immune to magic before 20th level if you stacked enough protective spells on the tank.

    People Magnet: This ability is difficult to work with. It's not always easy to tell whether someone is moving closer to the tank, or which is the best "straight at" direction to move in. Sometimes you'd have to resort to the pythagorean theorem. It's unclear how this ability would work if you move closer to the tank as part of the movement, but further away from the tank in some other part of the movement. In general, it would create battlefiend scenarios that are incredibly difficult to manage.
    Not really. In general, it means that you either move at the Tank in a strait line, or away from the Tank completely.
    Consider this situation. Is the Dude moving closer to the Tank or not? If he has to move towards the tank, which square should he move into?

    For that matter, what happens if the "straight at" direction is blocked?
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    Default Re: The Tank - 3.5 Base Class

    Ok, so let's have a look at this. I like the idea of a tank class, and I see lots of nice things here. I'll also input some of my own ideas, which might help you :)

    Quote Originally Posted by somebody27else View Post
    Alignment: Any non-evil.
    Any reasons why any non evil? I mean, I can surely imagine evil tank characters drawing attention from the party so that their allies/minions can wreck havoc

    Quote Originally Posted by somebody27else View Post
    Hit die: d12
    Skill points: 2 + Int
    Skill points first level: 4 x (2 + Int)

    Class Skills: A Tank has access to the following skills: Autohypnosis (wis), Climb (str), Concentration (con), Intimidate (cha), Jump (str), Swim (str).
    Looks good. Craft and Profession should always be included in the list (kind of an standard for 3.x/PF)


    Quote Originally Posted by somebody27else View Post
    Tank Table
    Ok...tank should have full BAB. It's a frontline melee class, it makes no sense that they can't hit things. They must be a reliable threat for something to actually want to hit them. If you don't want it with full BAB for reasons, at least make it have 3/4.

    Quote Originally Posted by somebody27else View Post
    IMPORTANT NOTICE: From here on out, whenever I mention a thing, I am referring to a spell, spell-like ability, psionic power, psi-like ability, or other similar things.
    I would recommend you not to do this, and specify which effects you talk to on each one of the class features.

    Quote Originally Posted by somebody27else View Post
    Proficiencies: A Tank is proficient with Simple weapons and all Armor and Shields.
    Pretty much standard. You need to specify whether tower shield is included on the proficiencies.

    Quote Originally Posted by somebody27else View Post
    Tank Radius: A Tank has a number of abilities that effect other things in a certain radius, called his Tank radius. His Tank radius is equal to 20 + 2*(Tank Level).

    I recommend something like 10 feet +5 feet per per every two levels (this would net 60 feet at 20th level) and would fit with how the mechanics of the system (and grids) work just fine.

    Here's how I would redact it, might be a bit more clear.
    Spoiler: Tank Radius(Ex)
    Show
    The tank possesses a number of abilities that affect his/her opponents, as well as spells and spell-like abilities cast on the area. The radius of the effects extends to 10 feet, plus 5 feet per every two tank levels.


    Quote Originally Posted by somebody27else View Post
    Super Tough (ex): At every level, the Tank gains Toughness as a bonus feat automatically.
    Looks ok, nice increase of HP. You could also add a later class feature to maximize hit points on each hit die (maybe with the capstone), so their HP can be further boosted.

    Quote Originally Posted by somebody27else View Post
    Bonus Feats (ex): As a Tank, there are a few set feats you can gain over the course of your adventure to amazingness. They all make you extra Tanky, or give you special bonuses from Tankiness. You must have met all prerequisites before choosing a feat.

    Choices: Toughness, Pain Mastery, Endurance, Iron Will, Roll With It, Diehard, Improved Toughness, Great Fortitude, Steadfast Determination, Strong Stomach, Lightning Reflexes, Second Wind, Goad, Combat Reflexes, Standstill, Enduring Life, Lasting Life, Block Arrows, Armor Specialization, Active Shield Defense, Shield Ward, Danger Sense, Disease Immunity, Poison Healer, Poison Immunity, Quick Recovery, Font of Life
    List looks ok, I would recommend reducing the number of feats the class grants, and instead give out a couple more class features.

    Also, Combat Expertise would be a nice addition, or maybe grant a class feature that works somewhat similar.

    Quote Originally Posted by somebody27else View Post
    People Magnet (ex): People are inexplicably drawn towards the Tank. As in, they are inexplicably, physically pulled towards him, for no real reason at all. A Tank can choose any and all enemies within his Tank radius. Those enemies may not make a move closer to the Tank without moving straight at the Tank, and cannot Threaten anyone but the Tank.

    For example, if there were a Rogue trying to Sneak Attack the Tankís Swordsage/party member, who was 5 squares away from the Tank, the Rogue would be forced to move directly at the Tank, and would have to miss the Swordsage completely.
    Ok, this feature have a couple of issues:

    1. It has no saving throw, or no skill check required to accomplish what it does, and it affects enemies directly.
    2. Not entirely clear on what the movement or attacks work for this.
    3. The name of the class feature could be a bit more clear, like calling it Enemy Magnet.

    This is my recommendation.
    Spoiler: Enemy Magnet
    Show

    Enemies of the tank feel a severe threat coming from the tank. At every round, any enemies within the tank's radius must succeed on a Will save DC 10 + 1/2 tank's level + Cha modifier. If they fail, any move action they take must bring them to the closest space available to the tank.


    Quote Originally Posted by somebody27else View Post
    Unencumbered (ex): Thanks to your amazing bigness, you have gained the ability to put on as much weight as you need. Your Movement Speed is unaffected by any armor you wear, you take no Armor Check penalty, and sleeping in armor does not Fatigue you the next day.
    Looks good, I like it.

    Alternatively, if people feel it too strong, I would gradually reduce the Armor Check Penalty, or add a class feature at a bit higher level that removes it entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by somebody27else View Post
    Anti-Armor-Piercing-Armor (ex): Armor is armor, as most can attest to. Activating this ability is a free action that can be taken prior to any attack. When it is active, your opponent(s) no longer has to make attack rolls, all attacks are assumed to hit. However, reduce any damage taken while this ability is active by (Armor bonus + Shield bonus + Enhancement + NA).
    Name is a bit confusing. I would limit it to one attack per round, or to one enemy per round. Maybe more attacks or enemies at higher levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by somebody27else View Post
    Anti-Spell-Piercing Skin (ex): Spells always hit you. But they just donít DO anything. You can activate this ability just as you would Anti-Armor-Piercing-Armor. While this ability is active, you forfeit your Spell Resistance. However, reduce any spell damage you would take by your Spell Resistance.
    This one I would make it a feat instead of a class feature, specially considering that the class does not grant any Spell Resistance.

    As a feat:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Anti-Spell-Piercing Skin
    Prerequisites: Anti-Armor-Piercing-Armor class feature, Spell Resistance extraordinary ability
    Benefit: You gain the ability to shrug off damage from spells, similar to the way you shrug off damage from physical attacks. You can activaty this ability any time a spell or spell-like ability would damage you. If you do, any you lose your spell resistance for the round, and any damage you would receive from the spell is reduced by the same amount of spell resistance you have.



    Quote Originally Posted by somebody27else View Post
    Spell Lightning Rod (ex): Spells are inexplicably drawn to you. When a thing would strike an ally within your Tank radius, you can choose to redirect it to yourself. You can do this for any number of allies within your range. You can also do this for multiple targets that would be hit by a single AoE spell. For example, if yourself and 2 allies would be struck by a single Fireball, you can choose to instead be hit 3 times by the Fireball, and your allies take no damage.

    This ability is waaayyyy too powerful as stated. I would recommend toning it down a bit, maybe removing the area of effect portion.

    Spoiler: Spell Lightning Rod(Ex)
    Show
    Your dedication to your allies alters the magical influences on your surroundings so that you can better protect your allies. Once per round, if a spell or spell-like ability targets an ally within your tank radius, you can change the target of a spell cast from one of your allies to yourself.


    Quote Originally Posted by somebody27else View Post
    Fickle as a Fiddle (ex): At 5th level, whenever you would be affected by a thing with a Permanent duration, you may roll a 1d4. If you get a 1, you are not affected by the thing. At level 10, rolling a 2 also counts as success. At level 15, rolling a 3 counts as a success. At level 20, you automatically succeed.
    This is waaayyy too powerful with luck at earlier levels, and as a capstone it makes them immune to a lot of things (which is kind of ok for a capstone hehe)

    I would instead allow them to just plainly ignore one such effect once per week, and maybe increase the level at which they acquire it.

    Quote Originally Posted by somebody27else View Post
    Evasive Mettle (ex): The Tank becomes better at reducing the effects of magic on him. If the Tank makes a successful save (Fort, Ref, or Will) against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect.
    Nice, I would just give them Evasion and Mettle (for prestige class, feats and general purposes )

    Quote Originally Posted by somebody27else View Post
    My Mind is My Own (ex): At 10th level, a Tank becomes immune to any mind-affecting things.
    Ok, powerful, yet, nice to have. Mind Blank comes available at 15th level, and this is 5 levels ahead of that, so you might want to delay at least a couple levels if deemed too powerful.

    Quote Originally Posted by somebody27else View Post
    Condition Resistance (ex): At higher levels, a Tank stops being affected by various conditions. At 10th level and each consecutive level, he can choose one of the following conditions, and becomes immune to it.
    • Ability Damaged/Drained/Burned
    • Blinded
    • Blown Away
    • Confused
    • Dazed
    • Dazzled
    • Deafened
    • Nauseated
    • Paralyzed
    • Sickened
    • Stunned
    Nice one, I really like it. It could start at earlier levels, and for some of the status have a level requirement.

    Quote Originally Posted by somebody27else View Post
    Canít Kill This (ex): At 15th level, a Tank becomes immune to Death effects. The only way he can die is if he is reduced to low enough hit points that he dies.
    Great ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by somebody27else View Post
    Hmm? What was That? (ex): A Tank, at 20th level, is the essence of Tank. He only Tanks, and refuses to do anything other than Tank. Thus, he is immune to any thing that does not do direct damage.
    [/QUOTE]

    This is, well, just WAY TOO POWERFUL. This is almost an instant-win on all fights. You can give it another ability to just ignore one effect once per round or similar.

    Or maybe just have them being inmune to everything once per day for a duration of 5 rounds or something like this. Strong yet not all too powerful.


    Also, you might want to add at some point an ability similar to this, which will help with actual tanking.

    Spoiler
    Show

    Provoke(Ex): You have learned how to anger your enemies to cause them to attack you. At the beginning of your turn, as a swift action, you can roll an Intimidate check. The DC of the check is 10 + the opponent's HD + their Wis modifier. If you succeed, the enemy will target you instead of your allies during this round.




    Hope this helps, I enjoy the concept of your class a lot!
    Last edited by Solarix; 2014-07-17 at 01:12 PM.
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    Default Re: The Tank - 3.5 Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Solarix View Post
    Ok, so let's have a look at this. I like the idea of a tank class, and I see lots of nice things here. I'll also input some of my own ideas, which might help you :)
    Alright, I'm ready.

    Any reasons why any non evil? I mean, I can surely imagine evil tank characters drawing attention from the party so that their allies/minions can wreck havoc
    Mostly for flavor. I don't know what you're definition of evil is, but mine doesn't include taking hits for the good of the team, without ulterior motives.

    Looks good. Craft and Profession should always be included in the list (kind of an standard for 3.x/PF)
    Doable.

    Ok...tank should have full BAB. It's a frontline melee class, it makes no sense that they can't hit things. They must be a reliable threat for something to actually want to hit them. If you don't want it with full BAB for reasons, at least make it have 3/4.
    Yeah, maybe. I wasn't really trying to make a frontline fighter, just a frontline shield. But I might still give it 3/4.

    I would recommend you not to do this, and specify which effects you talk to on each one of the class features.
    This was mostly just to save space. I looked over my class features and saw "spell, spell-like ability, psionic power, psi-like ability, or other similar" appearing over and over again. I wanted to shorten it down for the reader.

    Pretty much standard. You need to specify whether tower shield is included on the proficiencies.
    Any reason why a Tower Shield isn't covered by "all Armor and Shields"?

    I recommend something like 10 feet +5 feet per per every two levels (this would net 60 feet at 20th level) and would fit with how the mechanics of the system (and grids) work just fine.
    I'll probably change it to 20 feet +5/ 2 levels. It really wasn't about the final score, more about usability early on.

    Looks ok, nice increase of HP. You could also add a later class feature to maximize hit points on each hit die (maybe with the capstone), so their HP can be further boosted.
    Maybe.

    List looks ok, I would recommend reducing the number of feats the class grants, and instead give out a couple more class features.

    Also, Combat Expertise would be a nice addition, or maybe grant a class feature that works somewhat similar.
    Originally, I just had a bunch of HP-giving feats. I only widened the list to have a few combat-applicable feats, and more save-increasers after much complaining. If a character wants Combat Expertise, they'll have to spend one of their PC feats.

    Ok, this feature have a couple of issues:

    1. It has no saving throw, or no skill check required to accomplish what it does, and it affects enemies directly.
    2. Not entirely clear on what the movement or attacks work for this.
    3. The name of the class feature could be a bit more clear, like calling it Enemy Magnet.
    This was more supposed to stop his allies from being subject to melee attacks. I got an idea and went with it. I'll give it a rework soon enough.

    This is my recommendation.
    Spoiler: Enemy Magnet
    Show

    Enemies of the tank feel a severe threat coming from the tank. At every round, any enemies within the tank's radius must succeed on a Will save DC 10 + 1/2 tank's level + Cha modifier. If they fail, any move action they take must bring them to the closest space available to the tank.
    First! A Tank never gives off a severe threat. Ever.
    Second! Look above.

    Looks good, I like it.
    Thanks!

    Name is a bit confusing. I would limit it to one attack per round, or to one enemy per round. Maybe more attacks or enemies at higher levels.
    This actually has a funny story behind it. See, here I was, as a noob, wearing full everything armor. Some high-leveled Fighter came in and bypassed it all. But I was confused.

    "Shouldn't he do less damage? I'm wearing armor, why is the damage the same as if I wasn't?"

    The DM responded that that was how the game worked. Apparently, all armor is basically semi-solid blocks of jello.

    This one I would make it a feat instead of a class feature, specially considering that the class does not grant any Spell Resistance.
    This is a sound idea. Simply because I want all classes to have this option, I'm up for it. So sure.

    This ability is waaayyyy too powerful as stated. I would recommend toning it down a bit, maybe removing the area of effect portion.
    Why? If someone pulls a Power Word Kill on my Mage-friend, I want to be able to suck it up into my immeasurable hitpoints. Or if a sorc. pulls Fireball on the whole party, I want to be able to suck it all up, and take one for the team.

    This is waaayyy too powerful with luck at earlier levels, and as a capstone it makes them immune to a lot of things (which is kind of ok for a capstone hehe)

    I would instead allow them to just plainly ignore one such effect once per week, and maybe increase the level at which they acquire it.
    I kind of just wanted this to stop Caster XYZ from permanently turning him into a bullfrog. Not that there's anything wrong with bullfrogs, of course. I once had a very good bullfrog named Jeremiah. He was a friend of mine.

    I'll make it so that you can't use luck or other modifiers for the roll. Happy?

    Nice, I would just give them Evasion and Mettle (for prestige class, feats and general purposes )
    As a programmer, I love combining similar effects and making things concise. I'll put in the extra line that it counts as both.

    Ok, powerful, yet, nice to have. Mind Blank comes available at 15th level, and this is 5 levels ahead of that, so you might want to delay at least a couple levels if deemed too powerful.
    Eh, he's a Tank. So what if he gets a defensive ability a little early?

    Nice one, I really like it. It could start at earlier levels, and for some of the status have a level requirement.
    Meh. Too much work.

    Great ability.
    Thanks!

    This is, well, just WAY TOO POWERFUL. This is almost an instant-win on all fights. You can give it another ability to just ignore one effect once per round or similar.

    *Snip
    At high levels, an annoying melee person is prone to getting Planeshifted, wished, or useless-ized in SO MANY WAYS that I decided to say nope. Sure, he'll get hit by as many Lightning Bolts as you need, but if you want to boil my intestines and kill me instantly? No way, Jose.
    Last edited by 1pwny; 2014-08-19 at 07:36 PM.
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