Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 48
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Apr 2012

    Default Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    Mike Meals just gave some examples about these saves.


    @mikemearls What would be examples of Strength, Intelligence, or Charisma saving throws?
    @SnarkKnight1 Strength save - resist a gust of wind or push effect
    @SnarkKnight1 Int save - psionics when we do it
    @SnarkKnight1 charisma - possession
    @SnarkKnight1 I think this is an area where we will see more as designers get more used to the edition
    Last edited by Envyus; 2014-07-20 at 10:51 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Zombie

    Join Date
    Mar 2013

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    Strength saves I don't think will be a problem, but I'm disappointed in the Int and Cha saves. If Psionics or Possession never come up in game, then their whole "every stat will have saves associated with them" line isn't really true. While those are only examples, and I'm sure there will be some other cases, it doesn't bode well. When the only examples given are relatively rare ones, even if there are other cases, those are likely to be just as rare.

    I'm eagerly awaiting someone to create a homebrew document, once the PHB is released, which shuffles around the saves somewhat, especially for mental stats. Charm person, for example, could be a perfect candidate for a charisma save, but it's still just a Wis save, per the basic rules.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Ballarat
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.


  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Zombie

    Join Date
    Mar 2013

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by akaddk View Post
    Thanks. I remembered seeing it (EDIT: or, now that I see the time-stamp on that post, it must have been a similar post on the same topic), but I never bookmarked it, because I assumed (faultily, as it seems) that by final printing, they'd do more to make all 6 stats valid for saving throws. I won't make that mistake, now.
    Last edited by Tholomyes; 2014-07-20 at 11:43 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Apr 2012

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    I am assuming monsters will cause most of the saves. The casters I think are just limited because they don't want them to be able to freely attack all 6 saves.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Zombie

    Join Date
    Mar 2013

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Envyus View Post
    I am assuming monsters will cause most of the saves. The casters I think are just limited because they don't want them to be able to freely attack all 6 saves.
    I suppose this makes some degree of sense, especially once you get to higher levels where the gap between proficient saves and non-proficient saves is pretty high. But I'd prefer their solution to fix this was to make proficiency a flat bonus (at least for saving throws) and have whatever scaling across levels apply to proficient and non-proficient saves. But that's just me.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2011

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    Thanks to this thread I went through the Basic PDF and wrote on each spell with a save what the save is, because they don't include the save listed separately, and that gave me a chance to change the charms/suggestions to cha saves and the illusions to int saves (they have int:investigation to defeat it but its still good to have it written in bad, red handwriting).

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Prime32's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Ireland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    I kind of like the idea of giving each attack two save types, with the defender choosing which to use. Illusions might be Int/Wis, fireballs Dex/Con, paralysis Str/Cha and so on. That makes targeting someone's worst saves harder.
    ("They choose which" rather than "use the highest" so that they can take (Dis)advantage into account - a normally speedy character might try to hold their ground against a fireball instead of dodging it because their feet are entangled)
    Last edited by Prime32; 2014-07-21 at 09:50 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Seattle, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by akaddk View Post
    Considering his first example is using strength to oppose an enchantment effect which is purely mind affecting, I don't think he knows what he's talking about.
    "Sometimes, we’re heroes. Sometimes, we shoot other people right in the face for money."

    -Shadowrun 4e, Runner's Companion

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Charlotte, NC

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    Considering his first example is using strength to oppose an enchantment effect which is purely mind affecting, I don't think he knows what he's talking about.
    Part of his thought process from the guy is that he's changing the flavor of it. It's hardly fair to say that just because Hold Person is an Enchantment that it has to be; it'd fit just as well as a magical rope binding people, or a cage of force that can be broken out of.
    There was something here and in the avatar box, and there will eventually be again. I just need to figure out what I want...

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Zombie

    Join Date
    Mar 2013

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    Considering his first example is using strength to oppose an enchantment effect which is purely mind affecting, I don't think he knows what he's talking about.
    He actually acknowledges it below. Personally, I like Hold Person better as magical restraints, rather than a mental paralysis anyway. In non-D&D fiction, you're more likely to see a wizard bind an enemy in ethereal bonds, rather than mentally stop them in their tracks (and if they do, it's more likely a side effect of a "Charm Person" effect). Also, it spreads the saves out somewhat.

    My only real concern is that Wis might be a little lacking. It feels like most of the traditionally Will-save based effects will be shifted to Charisma, leaving Int and Wis barely better than Int and Cha are right now. While Illusions and Fear effects are notably more common than Possession and Psionics, it still feels like two stats get more niche saving throw domains, while one gets all the rest. A potential fix might be to split enchantments, such that Wis governs Charms (based on the logic that it also governs the Insight skill), while Charisma governs compulsions (based on the logic that charisma, being force of personality and 'mental strength', would be best to fight against an effect that tries to completely dominate your mind). Int could possibly, then also cover mental damage, so while it might still be more niche, it covers more.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    I would think that Charm Person and Suggestion would be wisdom, not charisma. The reason being that in my mind you don't know you are being manipulated by the spell, so you don't resist it with your force of will, you just think the suggestion is your own idea, and you really like that charming fellow. Those spells make you want to do things, but don't actually force you to do them. The wisdom saves let you realize you are being manipulated, thus letting you resist its pull. But with the Dominate spells you know you are being compelled and it literally forces you to take actions you don't want to do, thus your force of will comes into play.
    Last edited by Balyano; 2014-07-22 at 09:46 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Zombie

    Join Date
    Mar 2013

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balyano View Post
    I would think that Charm Person and Suggestion would be wisdom, not charisma. The reason being that in my mind you don't know you are being manipulated by the spell, so you don't resist it with your force of will, you just think the suggestion is your own idea, and you really like that charming fellow. Those spells make you want to do things, but don't actually force you to do them. The wisdom saves let you realize you are being manipulated, thus letting you resist its pull. But with the Dominate spells you know you are being compelled and it literally forces you to take actions you don't want to do, thus your force of will comes into play.
    The issue with that is that (usually) casting a spell is rather obvious. It has verbal and somatic components, and usually it requires some sort of alternate class feature or feat or some extra boon to make such casting non-obvious. While I don't mind Charms falling under wisdom, the notion that (unless things have changed in this edition) you wouldn't know you're being manipulated isn't exactly right.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tholomyes View Post
    The issue with that is that (usually) casting a spell is rather obvious. It has verbal and somatic components, and usually it requires some sort of alternate class feature or feat or some extra boon to make such casting non-obvious. While I don't mind Charms falling under wisdom, the notion that (unless things have changed in this edition) you wouldn't know you're being manipulated isn't exactly right.
    I see your point but I've never played the somatic components of enchantments as something obviously out of the ordinary. In the case of Suggestion at least it's a verbal and material and you have to word it to sound reasonable, so I don't see how the casting is obvious. With Charm Person there is a somatic component, but since they don't describe what it is I would roleplay it out as something simple and nonthreatening, like waving. Now if casting Charm Person involves me dancing around and making naruto ninja hand signs and shouting a long line of jibberish, then yes that would be a problem. But I've always taken enchantment as a subtle kind of casting and made the somatic and verbal components fit that style.

    Edit: A non-D&D example would be the jedi mind trick. He waved his hand and made a suggestion the these were not the droids he was looking for, the waving of his hand was a bit odd, and someone that knows some details about force abilities (magic) might realize what he did, but the average joe might not catch on.
    Last edited by Balyano; 2014-07-22 at 10:28 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    There are some debatable assignments, but as this is effectively houserules until such a time that WotC as a whole remembers there are other saves in the game, not to just copy/paste the 3e/4e save/defenses for spells and do some reassignments. Even then, there are still some mixed cases. Thunderwave for example: per Mearls' tweet, it ought to be a Strength Save for resisting the push, but the Save for half damage suggests/requires Constitution. Damage trumps rider effect?

    Pick an interpretation/reassignment, be consistent at the table, and you're good.

    Something I'd noticed is that the Basic Four all have one "useful" save proficiency (Dex, Con, Wis), and one "pointless" save (Str, Int, Cha). I'm curious if this is a consistent design trend, or if there will be classes with two good saves (Playtest Monk was Dex/Wis, for example).
    Why yes, Warlock is my solution for everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by obryn View Post
    Active Abilities are great because you - the player - are demonstrating your Dwarvenness or Elfishness. You're not passively a dwarf, you're actively dwarfing your way through obstacles.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Saint Louis
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    I kind of like the idea of giving each attack two save types, with the defender choosing which to use. Illusions might be Int/Wis, fireballs Dex/Con, paralysis Str/Cha and so on. That makes targeting someone's worst saves harder.
    ("They choose which" rather than "use the highest" so that they can take (Dis)advantage into account - a normally speedy character might try to hold their ground against a fireball instead of dodging it because their feet are entangled)
    I've played this way in multiple editions (3.5, PF, and 4e) and it worked wonderfully in each edition.

    Sure you have a few more numbers, but the emersion was fantastic. The player could describe how they are getting out of harms way and stuff.

    I had a 3.5 bard who had like... 6 wis. However I used Int versus illusions and cha versus charms. Totally roleplayed the Bard as to niave to be effected by spells (good progression + Int or Cha). The spells themselves just couldn't grasp how niave my character was. Lots of fun.

    Edit:

    Am I the only one stoked about Psionics? I think this is the first confirmation I heard that they definitely will do it... Of course that may be a year or so from now.
    Last edited by SpawnOfMorbo; 2014-07-23 at 08:05 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Banned
     
    Sartharina's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    I wish Fear were more Charisma-based than Wisdom-based: Too foolish/self-confident to run away. Especially with the Scholar flaw "Most people scream and run when they see a demon. I stop and take notes on its anatomy." And soldier personality "I can stare down a Hellhound without flinching"
    Last edited by Sartharina; 2014-07-27 at 03:15 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Pex's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by akaddk View Post
    Once again individual strangers on the internet come up with better rules than the professional designers of 5E.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    "Welcome to Dungeons and Dragons fifth edition, where the DCs are made up and the rules don't matter."

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Apr 2012

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Once again individual strangers on the internet come up with better rules than the professional designers of 5E.
    Not really. This system makes Casters much more powerful as it makes it even easier for them to attack a weak save. The current system is better. More of the other types of saves will pop up eventually we just have to wait a bit. Monsters will probably be forcing most of the saves.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Pex's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Envyus View Post
    Not really. This system makes Casters much more powerful as it makes it even easier for them to attack a weak save. The current system is better. More of the other types of saves will pop up eventually we just have to wait a bit. Monsters will probably be forcing most of the saves.
    It's not a tragedy that spellcasters get to have their spells actually work reliably. It's the whole point of being a spellcaster.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    "Welcome to Dungeons and Dragons fifth edition, where the DCs are made up and the rules don't matter."

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2014

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    It's not a tragedy that spellcasters get to have their spells actually work reliably. It's the whole point of being a spellcaster.
    and the whole point of saves is to make spells less reliable

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Zombie

    Join Date
    Mar 2013

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Envyus View Post
    Not really. This system makes Casters much more powerful as it makes it even easier for them to attack a weak save. The current system is better. More of the other types of saves will pop up eventually we just have to wait a bit. Monsters will probably be forcing most of the saves.
    I think a solution to that (which is just a generally good solution, even without this, IMO) is to have non-proficient saves still scale alongside proficient ones at the same rate, just at a lower starting value. It may seem like this decreases variance in saves by a lot, but if you notice, for the classes we've seen so far they all have one of their saves be a (common, if not universal) primary stat for that class, and the other is often a secondary stat. As such, the variance in saves still will be noticeable, but it won't be unmanageable.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Pex's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppo87 View Post
    and the whole point of saves is to make spells less reliable
    But not hardly ever work so why bother to cast because everyone makes their save 90% (exaggeration for point) of the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    "Welcome to Dungeons and Dragons fifth edition, where the DCs are made up and the rules don't matter."

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Apr 2012

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    But not hardly ever work so why bother to cast because everyone makes their save 90% (exaggeration for point) of the time.
    They will still work. With only 3 choices they can still target the lowest one they can they just won't be able to always target their opponents weakest save.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Pex's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    The point still stands I like the rules of an individual stranger on the internet more than the official 5E content.

    Again. (Meaning I have seen other rules by other people in the 5E paradigm I like more than 5E, on these forums.)
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    "Welcome to Dungeons and Dragons fifth edition, where the DCs are made up and the rules don't matter."

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Nov 2010

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    I hope the charisma saves matter, so Charisma doesn't just become the universal dumpstat again.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Saint Louis
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    Evade and Resist.

    They should really give two options for each effect like they do for the shove action.

    The defender my evade or they may try to resist.

    Charm Person

    Evade: Will
    Resist: Cha

    Choose either defensive option and toll a save of that type.

    Command

    Evade: Will
    Resist: Strength (to physically stop your body from following commands)

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Apr 2012

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    I hope the charisma saves matter, so Charisma doesn't just become the universal dumpstat again.
    That was Int in my opinion. Charisma was always great for Social situations.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    pwykersotz's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Western Washington
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpawnOfMorbo View Post
    Evade and Resist.

    They should really give two options for each effect like they do for the shove action.

    The defender my evade or they may try to resist.

    Charm Person

    Evade: Will
    Resist: Cha

    Choose either defensive option and toll a save of that type.

    Command

    Evade: Will
    Resist: Strength (to physically stop your body from following commands)
    This is an intriguing idea. I like it on first pass. I must think on it more.
    Attacking the darkness since 2009.

    List of Unearthed Arcana, Sage Advice, etc.
    Spoiler: Quotes I like
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal regarding What would a Cat Lord want? View Post
    She wants the renegade Red Dot brought to her court in chains.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers regarding a description of Stygia View Post
    Yes, I believe you have won GitP for the day.
    Quote Originally Posted by pwykersotz regarding randomly rolling edgelord backstories View Post
    Huh...Apparently I'm Agony Blood Blood, Half-orc Shadow Sorcerer. I killed a Dragons. I'm Chaotic Good, probably racist.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Inevitability's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Planes of Law

    Default Re: Strength, Intelligence and Charisma Saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpawnOfMorbo View Post
    Evade and Resist.

    They should really give two options for each effect like they do for the shove action.

    The defender my evade or they may try to resist.

    Charm Person

    Evade: Will
    Resist: Cha

    Choose either defensive option and toll a save of that type.

    Command

    Evade: Will
    Resist: Strength (to physically stop your body from following commands)
    I like it, although I see some spells' saves becoming unrealistic. How do you resist a Fireball?
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

    Extended signature!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •