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    Default Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    We all know the Tarrasque is far, far, over CR-ed. A moderately optimized party could easily take him down at 10th level, or even at 5th level. However, killing him is not as easy, is it?

    In this thread, I present a build that can kill the Tarrasque at 1st level, with no dependency on classes, items or spellcasting services. (but a high dependency on rule of silly )

    Now without further ado, the build!

    Spoiler: Madness
    Show
    Madness Tarrasquekiller, LE Venerable Human Commoner 1 (patron deity Kurtulmak)

    Flaws:
    -XP farm
    -Chicken Infested

    Ability scores (32 point buy):
    STR: 10
    DEX: 10
    CON: 10
    INT: 15
    WIS: 19
    CHA: 14

    Feats:
    1: Magical Training
    Human: Precocious Apprentice (command undead)
    Flaw: Keeper of Forbidden Lore
    Flaw: Education
    Pact: Arcane Disciple (luck domain)

    Skills:
    Max ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge (religion). Do whatever you want with your other 12 skill points. Putting points in heal would be useful, and maybe intimidate too.

    The trick:

    Okay, the Tarrasque is coming for Madness' city. First, Madness kidnaps a random person and tortures him Cruelly. Then, he causes Gratutious Injury to his victim, whatever that may be. He has now performed two corrupt acts that will let him make a Pact Insidious. As his rewards, Madness chooses a free feat (Arcane Disciple) and a free 9th level spell slot.

    The tortured victim is given the choice to either commit suicide or face the torture again. After trying enough times, most people will choose the first option. You now have a person driven to suicide because you affected it in life with torture. Or, to put it in another way, a person has been driven to suicide by Madness, who affected it in life. Allip time!

    Command the Allip. If this doesn't work, run like hell. Create a wall of chickens between the two of you, and revel in the knowledge you are just as fast as the Allip. Remember to run straight at the Tarrasque in this case, as it will get the Allip where you want him.

    We all know what happens now. Allip drains Tarrasque's wisdom, Tarrasque suffers brain failure, Tarrasque goes down, just add nonlethal damage by I don't know, sealing its lungs off with chickens or something. Then let the nonlethal damage ramp up for a couple hours.

    Now, it is time to unleash your mighty magicks! Through the luck domain, you have added Miracle to your spell list. Through the diabolic pact, you have gained a 9th-level spell slot. Simply walk up to the comatose Tarrasque and cast Miracle at its face. Tarrasque's dead, you win.

    Cast Ghost Sound three times (Magical Training) to shout that Madness Tarrasqueslayer just killed the Tarrasque. Just for style.


    So, how is it? I'd love to gain some feedback on this.
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2014-09-07 at 03:14 PM.
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    I'd love to hear some comments on this build. 88 views and no one has something to say? We can do better.
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Frankly, I'm surprised you did it without the BoVD sacrifice rules that other low-level high-op stunts keep using. But it is very silly.

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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    I may use this as a villain's backstory some day. It is the perfect combination of crazy and rules legal.


    I have to ask though, why Kurtulmak?

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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seclora View Post
    I have to ask though, why Kurtulmak?
    Mostly because he was the only evil deity I could find who possesses the luck domain. I can see your DM getting itchy when you insist that your CN character is still CN even when committing incredible evil acts and making pacts with LE outsiders. Kurtulmak's alignment is just perfect for this.
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    I think it's the only time i've seen someone optimize their character name. Silly, but I like it.

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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Well, even if the Allip goes first in initiative–which is actually less than 50/50 odds–the Tarrasque is more than likely going to stone-cold destroy it in the first round. The Tarrasque gets seven attacks per round, and its weapons are counted as Epic for the purposes of bypassing DR–i.e., they can hit incorporeal creatures, though there's still that 50% miss chance.

    On average, let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say that the three worst of them hit and do perfectly average damage, rounded down. That's still 40 damage, more than enough to annihilate the Allip even if it rolls well above average on its own hit die.

    So this doesn't work unless you get alarmingly lucky. It also assumes that if you fail to control the Allip you also succeed at the will save to not get hypnotized by its muttering.

    Edit: Also, maybe I'm just blind, but I'm not seeing any spellcasting ability that would let you pick up Precocious Apprentice. And it's debatable whether you could pick up Arcane Disciple and/or utilize that spell slot as part of a pact; I'm pretty sure you still have to meet the prerequisites for whatever you get out of that deal. Also the XP cost for Miracle for keeping the Tarrasque dead which you wouldn't be able to pay.
    Last edited by Cowardly Griffo; 2014-08-07 at 05:48 PM.
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    shame about all that wasted XP......

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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Have you considered how much time you'd need to torture this person into suicide? Because it could be quite a lot.

    We'll assume that time is of the essence, so its straight to the torture chamber with Joeschmoe McPoor. It takes 1 hour to perform torture on a person, if you want to minimise the chance of him succeeding then you would need to have restrained him for 12 hours and have to wait 6 hours between torture attempts (in the case he succeeds). Cruelly torturing him has a 50/50 (1d6+1) chance of dropping him into negative health; hope you put some points into heal to stabilise him. Even assuming you've managed to stop him from bleeding out on the table, you'd still have to wait for him to gain enough health to be out of the negatives (if it happened) which would take 8-16 hours worth of rest/care assuming you've stopped him from dropping more health on the ground.

    You still have to wait for the allip to rise which doesn't have a specified time (at least, in the the monster manual or book of bad latin). So it could be anywhere between instantly to several years or centuries even.

    Excluding Allip raising time, it would be about an hour at absolute minimum while minimising failure would take 13 hours at minimum.
    Last edited by Kerinserval; 2014-08-07 at 07:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowardly Griffo View Post
    Well, even if the Allip goes first in initiative–which is actually less than 50/50 odds–the Tarrasque is more than likely going to stone-cold destroy it in the first round. The Tarrasque gets seven attacks per round, and its weapons are counted as Epic for the purposes of bypassing DR–i.e., they can hit incorporeal creatures, though there's still that 50% miss chance.
    Incorporeality is not DR. The Tarrasque can't touch it.


    Edit: Also, maybe I'm just blind, but I'm not seeing any spellcasting ability that would let you pick up Precocious Apprentice. And it's debatable whether you could pick up Arcane Disciple and/or utilize that spell slot as part of a pact; I'm pretty sure you still have to meet the prerequisites for whatever you get out of that deal. Also the XP cost for Miracle for keeping the Tarrasque dead which you wouldn't be able to pay.
    Magical Training qualifies him.

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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by thisisacat View Post
    Incorporeality is not DR. The Tarrasque can't touch it.
    Magic weapons have a 50% chance of hitting Incorporeal creatures, Epic weapons include this property as they are effectively +6 magic weapons.

    Granted that's not what it says RAW for Magic/Epic strike but its the more logical conclusion.
    Last edited by Kerinserval; 2014-08-07 at 07:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerinserval View Post
    Granted that's not what it says RAW for Magic/Epic strike but its the more logical conclusion.
    This thread is based around someone creating an Allip by having the right name. You think logic has any power here?
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Or, to put it in another way, a person has been driven to suicide by Madness, who affected it in life. Allip time!
    I read this five minutes ago.
    I am still laughing.
    I...
    I think I need an oxygen tank.

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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    So, you're using an argument of "not RAW but it's logical", and that's the part of the build that you're objecting to?
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerinserval View Post
    Magic weapons have a 50% chance of hitting Incorporeal creatures, Epic weapons include this property as they are effectively +6 magic weapons.
    His weapons aren't Epic though. They're treated as Epic for the purposes of DR.

    Granted that's not what it says RAW for Magic/Epic strike but its the more logical conclusion.
    I don't think I agree. "for the purpose of overcoming DR" is a pretty specific statement with pretty specific consequences.

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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fates View Post
    Close the forums. Close the site. Preserve only this thread. Dire_Stirge has surpassed our mortal quibbles.
    Can I sig this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerinserval View Post
    Have you considered how much time you'd need to torture this person into suicide? Because it could be quite a lot.

    We'll assume that time is of the essence, so its straight to the torture chamber with Joeschmoe McPoor. It takes 1 hour to perform torture on a person, if you want to minimise the chance of him succeeding then you would need to have restrained him for 12 hours and have to wait 6 hours between torture attempts (in the case he succeeds). Cruelly torturing him has a 50/50 (1d6+1) chance of dropping him into negative health; hope you put some points into heal to stabilise him. Even assuming you've managed to stop him from bleeding out on the table, you'd still have to wait for him to gain enough health to be out of the negatives (if it happened) which would take 8-16 hours worth of rest/care assuming you've stopped him from dropping more health on the ground.

    You still have to wait for the allip to rise which doesn't have a specified time (at least, in the the monster manual or book of bad latin). So it could be anywhere between instantly to several years or centuries even.

    Excluding Allip raising time, it would be about an hour at absolute minimum while minimising failure would take 13 hours at minimum.
    He is only tortured Cruelly the first time. After that, he may as well only be Intimidated. There's nothing saying that doing less damage with the torture is less effective.


    Also to those of the Allip-Tarrasque debate, the Allip could also just:

    -Fly to the earth below the tarrasque.
    -During the next round, wisdom drain and then fly down 30 ft.
    -Fly up again, this time in a different spot.
    -Wisdom drain, fly down again.

    Unless the tarrasque can tunnel through 30 ft. of stone and still be able to attack someone in a single turn, the Allip will eventually win.

    Quote Originally Posted by sideswipe View Post
    shame about all that wasted XP......
    In that case, just let a bunch of commoners buy a ticket letting them take a single free stab at the Tarrasque while it is down. They all participated in slaying it, so logically they now gain a load of XP too. I wonder how much a commoner would pay to level up?

    Spoiler: Maths
    Show
    Assuming 4 ranks, 13 wisdom and skill focus, the average commoner has +8 to Profession. His average roll would be +18, or 9 GP per week.

    Now, if he were to level up, he'd probably take another rank in Profession, giving him a +9 bonus. That equals to half a gold piece more a week, or 26 more a year. So if the commoner pays 25 GP for participating in the Slay, he'll get that money back within a year. It is kind of an investment.

    Of course, that's not counting the improved BAB, additional HP, and other skill points a commoner would gain from this, so it may even be far more attractive. And lets not start on what happens if the XP goes to PC class levels.
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2014-08-08 at 03:00 AM.
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    Mostly because he was the only evil deity I could find who possesses the luck domain. I can see your DM getting itchy when you insist that your CN character is still CN even when committing incredible evil acts and making pacts with LE outsiders. Kurtulmak's alignment is just perfect for this.
    Beshaba (Godess of misfortune and bad luck) from Forgotten Realms is CE with Luck domain
    Last edited by Sian; 2014-08-08 at 05:13 AM.

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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sian View Post
    Beshaba (Godess of misfortune and bad luck) from Forgotten Realms is CE with Luck domain
    Could also work. Still, I think being LE fits the build better. Deal With the Devil and all that.
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    I thought only Kobolds could worship Kurtulmak. Might be wrong there.

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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    Mostly because he was the only evil deity I could find who possesses the luck domain. I can see your DM getting itchy when you insist that your CN character is still CN even when committing incredible evil acts and making pacts with LE outsiders. Kurtulmak's alignment is just perfect for this.
    I seem to remember something about the pacts immediately making you LE?

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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by tadkins View Post
    I thought only Kobolds could worship Kurtulmak. Might be wrong there.
    To my knowledge, there are no hard restrictions on deity choices besides what the DM approves. (aside from alignment differences for clerics and the like)

    However, it would be unlikely to the point of absurdity, which admittedly seems to be the point of this idea. I don't think I if acting as a DM would allow it unless given an extremely good excuse. Given kobold culture, the odds of an outsider knowing anything about Kurtulmak are quite slim (other than gnomes, who have their own legends, but they loathe kurtulmak and his people more than any other). And the odds of any outsider that is aware having actual reason to take up his banner are even lower.

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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by tadkins View Post
    I thought only Kobolds could worship Kurtulmak. Might be wrong there.
    I don't think there's any deity whose followers are restricted to a single race. The closest thing would be that 'humans are superior' god from RoD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    I seem to remember something about the pacts immediately making you LE?
    Could be. Never heard of it though. Regardless, this build works with Kurtulmak so I'm sticking with him.
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    My bad, it was a Pact Certain. Although as you said, adhering to a non-evil alignment is a pain when you're continually commiting explicitly evil acts.

    There could be a way around it - find a Cleric of a LE god with a Heretic of the Faith feat taking Luck. It's not explicit, but you could become one of his followers, which suggests you follow in his Heresy, and as he benefits from it, so could you.
    Last edited by Vaz; 2014-08-08 at 06:49 AM.

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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Clerics of racial deities need to be of that race, but other followers can be of any race.

    And besides, it's a ludicrous way of breaking the game by twisting rules beyond all recognition. Kobolds have to be involved in there somewhere.
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    And besides, it's a ludicrous way of breaking the game by twisting rules beyond all recognition. Kobolds have to be involved in there somewhere.
    This thread is spawning so much great quotes.
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    Can I sig this?
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    in order to get the xp out of the kill, Madness VonTarrasqueslayer needs to gain the contributing stabs of enough commoners to reach CR 13. Now, the allip doesnt count, so that means we need 8 more commoners then we would want to split the xp.

    a lvl 1 human commoner is "CR1". 2 of them are CR 2, and 4 are CR 3 and so on. this means we need 8191 stabs after the allip downs Mr.T to yield XP.

    a 13th level party downing the tarrasque would gain 46800 each of xp, for a total pool of 187200xp.

    divide that by the number of commoners needed, and we get a total of everyone is getting 22.85 xp
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    a lvl 1 human commoner is "CR1". 2 of them are CR 2, and 4 are CR 3 and so on. this means we need 8191 stabs after the allip downs Mr.T to yield XP.
    No. A 1st level human warrior is CR 1/2. Commoners should RAW be CR 1/2, and more likely 1/3 or even 1/4.
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    No. A 1st level human warrior is CR 1/2. Commoners should RAW be CR 1/2, and more likely 1/3 or even 1/4.
    not according to the definition of Associated vs Non Associated class levels. because humanoids typically lose their RHD with a class level that class is considered associated and so advances CR 1:1, not 2:1 or the 5:1 it actually should be for commoner

    ah, exception clause. Ok, everyone gets 11.425 xp for the tarrasque kill
    Last edited by toapat; 2014-08-08 at 12:42 PM.
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    Default Re: Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    in order to get the xp out of the kill, Madness VonTarrasqueslayer needs to gain the contributing stabs of enough commoners to reach CR 13. Now, the allip doesnt count, so that means we need 8 more commoners then we would want to split the xp.

    a lvl 1 human commoner is "CR1". 2 of them are CR 2, and 4 are CR 3 and so on. this means we need 8191 stabs after the allip downs Mr.T to yield XP.

    a 13th level party downing the tarrasque would gain 46800 each of xp, for a total pool of 187200xp.

    divide that by the number of commoners needed, and we get a total of everyone is getting 22.85 xp
    You gain XP based on Average Party Level with an assumed 4 man party, not based on party CR. This means you need only a total of 52 level 1 commoners to reach an average party level of 13. Each commoner would receive 900 xp.

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