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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Malimar View Post
    My main problem with the Pathfinder pantheon is the same as my main problem with almost every other RPG cosmology: there isn't a major god of agriculture&fertility (or wasn't, last I checked). Which really is just a reflection of the broader fact that all such pantheons are designed with adventurers in mind, not with the goal of being realistic or being relevant to the worlds they're designed for in any way.
    Erastil covers Agriculture as well as community and hunting. I'd say Pharasma covers fertility as "birth", The Midwife is actually a common nickname for Pharasma. Both are core deities and part of the "big 20". Outside of the "big 20" I can probably name three or four more fertility deities with a little digging, and probably more than a few agriculture deities.
    Last edited by Kudaku; 2014-08-09 at 04:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Malimar View Post
    My main problem with the Pathfinder pantheon is the same as my main problem with almost every other RPG cosmology: there isn't a major god of agriculture&fertility (or wasn't, last I checked). Which really is just a reflection of the broader fact that all such pantheons are designed with adventurers in mind, not with the goal of being realistic or being relevant to the worlds they're designed for in any way.
    That would be Erastil. One of the "core twenty," he's described as "the god of bountiful harvests," has the farming portfolio and the Plant domain, and is worshiped by farmers.

    Oh, and in case anyone wants to bring it up, his misogyny has been retconned away as of Inner Sea Gods.

    EDIT: ninja'd. The one time I need to check a cite...
    Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2014-08-09 at 04:51 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Malimar View Post
    My main problem with the Pathfinder pantheon is the same as my main problem with almost every other RPG cosmology: there isn't a major god of agriculture&fertility (or wasn't, last I checked). Which really is just a reflection of the broader fact that all such pantheons are designed with adventurers in mind, not with the goal of being realistic or being relevant to the worlds they're designed for in any way.
    Erastil and Fandarra respectivly might want a word with you on those counts.

    EDIT: Dang ninjas...
    Last edited by Twilightwyrm; 2014-08-09 at 04:51 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    That would be Erastil. One of the "core twenty," he's described as "the god of bountiful harvests," has the farming portfolio and the Plant domain, and is worshiped by farmers.

    Oh, and in case anyone wants to bring it up, his misogyny has been retconned away as of Inner Sea Gods.

    EDIT: ninja'd. The one time I need to check a cite...
    What Erastilian misogyny?

    Rather random that he condemns his suicides to Avernus specifically, though. Both in that it's there as a one line graf and also because it's Avernus, the first layer that he sends them to. I guess they really had to reach for a way to have non-LE souls end up in Hell in their cosmology?
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2014-08-09 at 04:57 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    The original Erastil article had an (unintentionally) raspy tone towards women - it focused a bit too much on his idea of the "traditional family" - he did indeed come across as a bit sexist. Paizo has stated repeatedly that that's the article was unfortunate and misrepresented Erastil, and retconned him in the Inner Sea Gods hardcover.

    After reading someone describe Cayden as "creepy" (something I have a hard time understanding personally) I did a little bit of reading up on Cayden Cailean and the female deities. Here's what I found in the Inner Sea Gods:

    Quote Originally Posted by Inner Sea Gods, various pages
    (Cayden) is on good terms with Desna, Sarenrae, and especially Shelyn (whom he delights in serenading).

    (Cayden Cailean) occasionally trysts with Calistria but remains wary of her; on more than one bitter occasion, the beautiful goddess of lust has gotten the best of him(...)

    Cayden Cailean (...) amuses (Shelyn) with his heartfelt and often inebriated attempts to woo her, but most believe her love for the god of freedom to be that of a patient older sister.

    Iomedae is on good terms with (...) Cayden Cailean (...) holding common interests with (him).

    Iomedae has little patience for what she sees as Cayden’s poor discipline and shirking of responsibility.

    Recently, Cayden Cailean has made attempts to woo Desna, a flirtation she finds endearing.

    (Sarenrae) is warm and welcoming toward all nonevil deities.
    The only deity I couldn't find any specific details on is Sarenrae, whose "relation with other religions" article is written in a very general language and never mentions Cayden by name.

    My impression of Cayden is basically as the charming but at times inappropriate guy who makes good-natured flirty remarks when he's in the company of beautiful women, but he certainly wouldn't continue to make advances (joking or serious) if he thought they were genuinely unwanted or making the recipient feel uncomfortable.
    Last edited by Kudaku; 2014-08-09 at 06:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    What Erastilian misogyny?
    Exactly

    For a serious answer, see Kudaku's post above.
    Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2014-08-09 at 05:44 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Kudaku View Post
    The original Erastil article had an (unintentionally) raspy tone towards women - it focused a bit too much on his idea of the "traditional family" - he did indeed come across as a bit sexist. Paizo has stated repeatedly that that's the article was unfortunate and misrepresented Erastil, and retconned him in the Inner Sea Gods hardcover.
    That does seem rather at odds with his desire to have all humanoids throw off the shackles of civilization and live as anarchic communities of hunters, gatherers, and farmers, aye. Misogyny seeming to be a development of civilization past his threshold of tolerance from what I recall.

    Although, honestly, I can't quite figure out the right terms to describe his ideal community as a god of community that dislikes civilization past the level of the individual community.

    I suppose he might be OK with some form of city-state if they had some sufficiently "primitive" form of government...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kudaku View Post
    After reading someone describe Cayden as "creepy" (something I have a hard time understanding personally) I did a little bit of reading up on Cayden Cailean and the female deities. Here's what I found in the Inner Sea Gods:

    The only deity I couldn't find any specific details on is Sarenrae, whose "relation with other religions" article is written in a very general language and never mentions Cayden by name.

    My impression of Cayden is basically as the charming but at times inappropriate guy who makes good-natured flirty remarks when he's in the company of beautiful women, but he certainly wouldn't continue to make advances (joking or serious) if he thought they were genuinely unwanted or making the recipient feel uncomfortable.
    Huh. That's downright tame.

    Sarenrae is the Goddess of sticking flaming scimitars in things, right?

    I just figured he was a good-natured whatever it is that's a step up from murderhobo myself.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf DW View Post
    What is this? This is so bad. Nothing about this guy is appealing. We have some random drunk who pulls some stunt and becomes a god? He spends time leaving thinks unfinished because it "violates his principals?" What a punk! I was right about the dude with guitar thing. This is the guy who comes to work drunk off his, and tells you he can't work during his hours that he said he was available for because "it's like my sabbath man." And Paizo made him a deity. :l
    Last edited by Snowbluff; 2014-08-09 at 11:04 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazuki View Post
    Actually, Calistria denied him. Which is part of what makes me like her.

    Also, he does. He's tried to woo three Goddesses (Desna, Shelyn, and Calistria), which is more than enough examples that he's just trying to get his rocks off.
    Your not big on Nordic or Greek/Roman Mythology, are you?

    It's a thing with Gods to go around trying to get there rocks off a lot. With Goddesses, magic beings and Mortals. Hell, at least he's not married and doing it behind his wifes back.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    Your not big on Nordic or Greek/Roman Mythology, are you?

    It's a thing with Gods to go around trying to get there rocks off a lot. With Goddesses, magic beings and Mortals. Hell, at least he's not married and doing it behind his wifes back.
    And at least when they say "no" he doesn't go for it anyways. He just keeps trying to get lucky. Consensually.

    As I said, 10/10, better than Zeus.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    I'm glad PF has Pharasma, there really SHOULD always be a neutral (or lawful neutral, with death being the ultimate "cosmic law" to enforce on all mortals) greater god(dess) of death, who opposes all those who try to cheat/escape/corrupt/destroy the life-and-death cycle. Which necessarily means being very strongly opposed to the undead. The evil undead-loving god should not be the arbiter of mortality, that's just flipping stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    What is this? This is so bad. Nothing about this guy is appealing. We have some random drunk who pulls some stunt and becomes a god? He spends time leaving thinks unfinished because it "violates his principals?" What a punk! I was right about the dude with guitar thing. This is the guy who comes to work drunk off his, and tells you he can't work during his hours that he said he was available for because "it's like my sabbath man." And Paizo made him a deity. :l
    Yup. I don't know why so many people love him so much, he's easily my least favorite PF deity. I don't think he's sexist or anything, just a drunk frat boy *******. Which is...quite enough to dislike him.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    [QUOTE=StreamOfTheSky;17913289]I'm glad PF has Pharasma, there really SHOULD always be a neutral (or lawful neutral, with death being the ultimate "cosmic law" to enforce on all mortals) greater god(dess) of death, who opposes all those who try to cheat/escape/corrupt/destroy the life-and-death cycle. Which necessarily means being very strongly opposed to the undead. The evil undead-loving god should not be the arbiter of mortality, that's just flipping stupid.[quote]

    That's actually part of why I like Forgotten Realms and Kelemvor. I actually played a Necromancer (in the traditional sense of speaking to the dead, as opposed to raising zombies). Plus, Mask of the Betrayer was pretty awesome.

    Yup. I don't know why so many people love him so much, he's easily my least favorite PF deity. I don't think he's sexist or anything, just a drunk frat boy *******. Which is...quite enough to dislike him.
    Can't speak to that. Honestly not very familiar with Golarion.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    And at least when they say "no" he doesn't go for it anyways. He just keeps trying to get lucky. Consensually.

    As I said, 10/10, better than Zeus.
    Which I'm fine with.


    As to the rest, as many of these people exist, is it really surprising they got there own deity?

    Particularly form a company that does an organized play adventure about rescuing the prince and once you get the prince the GM's are directed to "Troll the Players with him for the rest of the game." I'm not even kidding, this was my Pathfinder Society session a month or so ago at a Con.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    People like him because they consider him a symbol of freedom and standing fast against the darkness. Opposing tyranny and oppression without being as 'stick-up-the-ass" as traditional good gods (Tyr or Helm or Lathandar or Iomedae etc.). Plus "god of booze" is always a pretty popular archetype.

    Doesn't help that most of the reasons people are claiming he's a bad deity are literally made up on the spot. I'm personally not much of a fan of him but that doesn't need to invent reasons to hate him.

    I'm not a fan of Nerull either and I'm not gonna go around complaining about how Nerull is an awful deity because he roots for the Packers and wears those stupid cheese wedge hats.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    Yup. I don't know why so many people love him so much, he's easily my least favorite PF deity. I don't think he's sexist or anything, just a drunk frat boy *******. Which is...quite enough to dislike him.
    i think i got 2/3rd of the way through the PF Core rulebook one day because it was the only thing to do in the car. Caiden's fun begins and ends in the book.

    "Ascended to godhood on a drunken bet" is amusing, but as far as anything else? i cant remember anything from that book besides the paladin mostly because of the realization how stupid the paladin in that is.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Anlashok View Post
    I'm not a fan of Nerull either and I'm not gonna go around complaining about how Nerull is an awful deity because he roots for the Packers and wears those stupid cheese wedge hats.
    You sir, you just made "the list".
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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Anlashok View Post
    People like him because they consider him a symbol of freedom and standing fast against the darkness. Opposing tyranny and oppression without being as 'stick-up-the-ass" as traditional good gods (Tyr or Helm or Lathandar or Iomedae etc.). Plus "god of booze" is always a pretty popular archetype.

    Doesn't help that most of the reasons people are claiming he's a bad deity are literally made up on the spot. I'm personally not much of a fan of him but that doesn't need to invent reasons to hate him.

    I'm not a fan of Nerull either and I'm not gonna go around complaining about how Nerull is an awful deity because he roots for the Packers and wears those stupid cheese wedge hats.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    I personally find the Pathfinder Core 20 deities to be simply divine.

    My favorite two are:

    Zon-Kuthon, who was in no doubt in my mind, the designer's tip of the hat to Clive Barker's Hellraiser. Their alterations of Kyton, which were formally devils in 3.X, which now fit into that perfect Cenobite role without having to be actual baatezu.

    and

    Desna, who single-handily lit up the Dark Tapestry with stars, creating the night sky from nothing but the cold, unforgiving void.

    Special mentions:

    Rovagug, the most powerful Qlippoth, who required quite a large prison...

    Urgathoa, the first undead. She has perhaps the best (and most gruesome) picture, in my opinion (the naked, skinned skeleton one).

    Iomedae, for mainly not being Palor, while still being a strong role model for young girls growing up on Golarion...
    Last edited by LordErebus12; 2014-08-10 at 12:55 AM.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    What is this? This is so bad. Nothing about this guy is appealing. We have some random drunk who pulls some stunt and becomes a god? He spends time leaving thinks unfinished because it "violates his principals?" What a punk! I was right about the dude with guitar thing. This is the guy who comes to work drunk off his, and tells you he can't work during his hours that he said he was available for because "it's like my sabbath man." And Paizo made him a deity. :l
    The link's not broken is it?

    Despite the church's promotion of drink, the faithful draw a line between drinking for merriment and drinking to excess. The latter is seen as the abuse of one of the deity's favored things, and as such is frowned upon. Similarly, although the faithful of Cayden Cailean are known to actively seek out danger and adventure, they recognize the need to withdraw when a situation turns sour. Stupidity does not equal bravery, and bravery should never be sought at the bottom of a keg.
    The church also sponsors a large number of orphanages, and it's not uncommon for children from such locations to take the surname Cailean when they leave.


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    Last edited by Beowulf DW; 2014-08-10 at 12:58 AM.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    i think i got 2/3rd of the way through the PF Core rulebook one day because it was the only thing to do in the car. Caiden's fun begins and ends in the book.

    "Ascended to godhood on a drunken bet" is amusing, but as far as anything else? i cant remember anything from that book besides the paladin mostly because of the realization how stupid the paladin in that is.
    The core rulebook doesn't say a thing about him apart from listing his portfolio and domains. And what do you think is wrong with the Pathfinder paladin?
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    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    I'm glad PF has Pharasma, there really SHOULD always be a neutral (or lawful neutral, with death being the ultimate "cosmic law" to enforce on all mortals) greater god(dess) of death, who opposes all those who try to cheat/escape/corrupt/destroy the life-and-death cycle. Which necessarily means being very strongly opposed to the undead. The evil undead-loving god should not be the arbiter of mortality, that's just flipping stupid.
    Why? I'm not speaking for its execution in published materials but this seems like a perfectly workable concept. For example, 4E had Orcus (the Demon Prince of the Undead) attempting to wrestle the Raven Queens (TN Goddess of death) portfolio and dominion over the souls of the dead. This would give him servants in everyone who would ever die as well as a ton of other advantages. That seems perfectly sensible and would continue to be so if he had succeeded.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    Yup. I don't know why so many people love him so much, he's easily my least favorite PF deity. I don't think he's sexist or anything, just a drunk frat boy *******. Which is...quite enough to dislike him.
    Do "drunk frat boy *******" regularly expend significant effort promoting freedom and bravery and liberation from evil? Cayden is CG, not CN. He sincerely helps people and refused to compromise his principles when he was a mortal (and also now that he's a god). His followers regularly risk their lives fighting against evildoers and I'd bet a fortune that Cayden would do so as well if he weren't bound by godly restrictions. He's also just a genuinely friendly guy (god).

    I'm not saying you have to love or even like him but saying he's a "drunk frat boy *******" is doing him an unfair disservice in my opinion.
    Last edited by 123456789blaaa; 2014-08-10 at 01:08 AM.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    And what do you think is wrong with the Pathfinder paladin?
    Probably the "Smite over Time" thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa View Post
    Why? I'm not speaking for its execution in published materials but this seems like a perfectly workable concept. For example, 4E had Orcus (the Demon Prince of the Undead) attempting to wrestle the Raven Queens (TN Goddess of death) portfolio and dominion over the souls of the dead. This would give him servants in everyone who would ever die as well as a ton of other advantages. That seems perfectly sensible and would continue to be so if he had succeeded.
    I think the point is that the contest can be there, but straight up having the primary god of death (not the undead, but of death) be biased is the problem. Raven Queen, Pharasma, Wee Jas, Hades (we all know he's only Evil in Disney), Kelemvor, and Anubis are all examples of properly done Death gods
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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    I think I'm the only person ever who likes Nerull.

    Raven Queen...are all examples of properly done Death gods
    She's envious and petty and primarily does what she does out of spite and desperation than anything else. She hates the undead not because undead are anathema or anything but because she's deeply jealous and covetous over anyone else who dares claim a single soul (after all, HER undead are perfectly cool). Hell, she seems TN mostly because she's too busy desperately trying to claim every single soul for herself to do anything overtly evil (and even then I'm not entirely convinced she deserves that tag).

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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    I'm pretty sure that's a job requirement for him.

    Also, 10/10, still better than Zeus
    By a mile.

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    Huh, I figured most of the people here would relate to the God of Getting Shot Down
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    Or maybe they're just not jerks?

    "This guy is hitting on me, so I'm just going to throw fire and lightning at him until he goes away. That's perfectly valid, right?"
    Well, if you're Andrea Dworkin over there then it might seem so

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    Yup. I don't know why so many people love him so much, he's easily my least favorite PF deity. I don't think he's sexist or anything, just a drunk frat boy *******. Which is...quite enough to dislike him.
    For the record, he's far from my favorite too. I just don't see what the big crime is with flirting.

    Irori is my personal favorite, followed by Nethys - two ascended mortals who Don't Need Your Stinking Starstone.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2014-08-10 at 01:31 AM.

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    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Kudaku View Post
    Sexual portfolios is not the only potentially dangerous topic they've worked with either. I often find that the paizo deities are at their best (or worst, depending on the alignment) when the writers dare to stray away from the vanilla portrayal of pantheons. Deities (or more accurately Daemon Harbingers) like Folca and Osolmyr are incredibly cool both for being incredibly risky territory and also for daring to be different than the standard "evil god" stuff.

    Hell, I've only ever read two sentences about Folca and he still gives me nightmares.
    **Looks up this "Folca"**

    **Reflects that two sentences is about all there seems to be.**

    So; "God/Patron of paedophiliac serial killers". I can see people must have been falling over themselves for that position. Seems more like a tasteless joke than anything I'd describe as "incredibly cool" or "daring" however.

  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by squiggit View Post
    She's envious and petty and primarily does what she does out of spite and desperation than anything else. She hates the undead not because undead are anathema or anything but because she's deeply jealous and covetous over anyone else who dares claim a single soul (after all, HER undead are perfectly cool). Hell, she seems TN mostly because she's too busy desperately trying to claim every single soul for herself to do anything overtly evil (and even then I'm not entirely convinced she deserves that tag).
    Okay, scratch her out. I only knew the basics (TN, Death, Secrets), so I figured it was like a hybridization of Vecna and Wee Jas.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    a hybridization of Vecna and Wee Jas.
    We do not talk about attempts to "hybridize" Vecna and Wee Jas.

    Especially as the former would never shut up about it.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by squiggit View Post
    I think I'm the only person ever who likes Nerull.
    -snip-
    You would be wrong on that. I prefer to think of Nerull as the god of DEATH, as in, the god of killing things in insane cult rituals.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Probably the "Smite over Time" thing.



    I think the point is that the contest can be there, but straight up having the primary god of death (not the undead, but of death) be biased is the problem. Raven Queen, Pharasma, Wee Jas, Hades (we all know he's only Evil in Disney), Kelemvor, and Anubis are all examples of properly done Death gods
    That's what I'm talking about though. I don't see the problem with having a biased death god. The concept could be executed badly but I don't see what's inherently wrong with it.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder cosmology ... sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa View Post
    That's what I'm talking about though. I don't see the problem with having a biased death god. The concept could be executed badly but I don't see what's inherently wrong with it.
    Because it promotes the stereotype that Death == Evil, which is extremely unpopular around here, given that it is the gate to respective afterlives, which, for good people, are good. If the gatekeeper is Evil, then how do Good souls get to the Good afterlife?
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