Challenge Rating

[Wippit Guud]

Challenge Rating
This shows the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty.

Ok, so we have a general description.


1. Does a creatures challenge rating include it's treasure? If the party enounters an ogre, who has a minor magic item... lets say a +1 ring of protection, can the ogre wear the ring? How about a +1 greatclub? Is this included in the CR?

2. Does location affect the CR? A very notable example is a dragon: is the listed CR for running into one randomly, or for trying to take one on in its lair?

[Dhavaer]

1. Yes, I believe so.

2. Randomly, as I understand it. If the creature is in a place that gives it an advantage, the challenge rating increases. I could be wrong about that, but that's how it works in Modern, which is generally the same.

[Bears With Lasers]

The creature's CR includes anything in its stat block. For example, a Balor's vorpal sword is factored in. A Frost Giant Jarl's +2 Fullplate and +2 Frost Greataxe are factored in. The CR doesn't assume the creature has X gold and spends it on items, intelligently or not, though. A +1 ring or greatclub won't make a significant difference in effective CR. Something like a Rod of Absorption would.

Location doesn't officially affect the CR, but it can make a big difference. Most creatures are about as tough in most environments; many flyers, like Manticores, have an advantage out of doors.
The listed CR is just for fighting the dragon with the stat block given. The CR assumes the dragon is alone; otherwise you add the dragon's CR to his traps, his lair defenses, et cetera to determine the Encounter Level (if the PCs fight the dragon at the same time as dealing with traps/lair) or count as individual encounters, each using up a certain amount of resources (if they deal with the traps and lair, then fight the dragon).

[Wippit Guud]

The listed CR is just for fighting the dragon with the stat block given. The CR assumes the dragon is alone; otherwise you add the dragon's CR to his traps, his lair defenses, et cetera to determine the Encounter Level (if the PCs fight the dragon at the same time as dealing with traps/lair) or count as individual encounters, each using up a certain amount of resources (if they deal with the traps and lair, then fight the dragon).

The problem with dragons is that their listed stat block is incomplete. They do not have spells listed, but cast as a caster of a given level. They have feats, but said feats are selected on in individual basis - whereas all goblins of the listed CR in the book have alertness.

So, is the dragons CR gonna change based on what is selected? Would Red Dragon A (nuker-oriented spell list, melee feats), be the same CR as Red Dragon B (summoning spell list, 2 leadership feats). Because you're going to run into two completely different dragons.

[Bears With Lasers]

Theoretically--yes, it would be. A dragon doesn't have example spells, which gives some room; I'd imagine dragons with low CLs take things like Mage Armor and Shield rather than Magic Missile. Feats also make a difference, but things like Hover, Flyby Attack, Wingover, etc. are comon. There's some room in optimizing a dragon acting within the stat block given, of course; I'm not sure how much optimization the CR assumes, but the feat choices "should" presumably be reasonable but not twinky. Adjust to your group, I guess.

[Saph]

1. Does a creatures challenge rating include it's treasure? If the party enounters an ogre, who has a minor magic item... lets say a +1 ring of protection, can the ogre wear the ring? How about a +1 greatclub? Is this included in the CR?

It's not included in the CR, but for reasons of common sense, a monster should always be using any permanent magic items it owns. Whether it uses things like potions, etc depends on how mean the GM is. If it does, he should at least roll up something else afterwards.

In any case, a +1 item or whatever doesn't make any significant difference to the CR of a monster.

2. Does location affect the CR? A very notable example is a dragon: is the listed CR for running into one randomly, or for trying to take one on in its lair?

Dragons are a hard one. They don't come pre-built, so you're going to have to fill out their spells, feats, etc.

Any dragon except the very youngest ones WILL have a lair and some sort of defence system. This isn't included in the dragon's CR. But a dragon's CR isn't for running into it 'randomly', either, becuase the CR listed in the PHB assumes that the PCs are prepared and have access to spells like Protection from Energy to stop the dragon one-shotting half the party with its breath weapon.

The best way to look at dragons is not to see them as CR-rated monsters at all. They're a whole adventure in themselves. Fighting a dragon will involve learning about it, finding it, dealing with the dragon's minions, getting past the dragon's wards/traps, and only then fighting the dragon itself. Depending on how well the PCs do in the first half of the adventure, that'll decide what the location is and who's got the advantage in the final battle.

- Saph

[Variable Arcana]

Would Red Dragon A (nuker-oriented spell list, melee feats), be the same CR as Red Dragon B (summoning spell list, 2 leadership feats).

*blink*

In the RAW, can you take the leadership feat twice? Two cohorts and twice the followers?!? That doesn't sound right.

[Rigeld2]

In the RAW, can you take the leadership feat twice? Two cohorts and twice the followers?!? That doesn't sound right.

Its not.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#leadership
Nothing in there about taking it multiple times, so you cant.

[daggaz]

Actually, the encounter calculator on the SRD has a field for where the fight takes place. You will note it changes things like 'spot distance' etc.

Hmmm, well on further testing, it doesn't actually change the xp levels, it just randomizes the spot check distance within the given parameter. Would be easy enough however, to just fudge the xp yourself given the terrain.

As for the question about equipment, it is a recommendation in the DMG that the monsters actually use the equipment they may get thru the treasure tables, so I imagine that yeah, the xp given is for a monster that uses said equipment. (You could probably lower it a tad if they don't and they have a nice item.)

[Thomas]

Location and CR is discussed in the DMG, in the appropriate section. I think it suggests -50% to +50% XP depending on the actual difficulty of the encounter (i.e. a bunch of sleeping goblins is -50% XP, a bunch of camoflaged goblins in high ground unreachable on foot with ranged weapons and alchemist's fires is +50% XP).

[Ethdred]

This is not precisely on topic but reminds me of a question that's been bugging me for ages. If an intelligent monster has a potion of healing, then it will use that during the fight if possib;e. But that means that not only does it have less treasure for the party but it also becomes a harder encounter. The same is true of other consumbales (wands, feather tokens etc). In the long run this could unbalance things - a DM could run things by the tables and find that his party is getting underpowered.

I think I first thought of this in Red Hand of Doom, where almost every hobgoblin the party meets is loaded with healing potions.

[Bears With Lasers]

Ethdred: I'm playing in an RHoD game right now, and it's something of a wash. Sometimes the hobgolins drank their potions, sometimes we killed them or Confused them and took the potions from their cold, dead bodies, thus gaining some potions.

[Thomas]

It's such a minor concern, to me. In all my years of DMing, I've never found monsters making use of their treasure to unbalance anything any which way. If you've got NPCs with equipment, in fact, you should make a lot of that equipment consumables, and make sure they get used, or else the PCs will have too easy an encounter and get way too much treasure from it (NPC encounter with NPC wealth provide way too much treasure as is, mostly).

[SpiderBrigade]

Thomas, doesn't that depend a lot on the treasure? Sure, if you roll it on the chart, and your orc leader has a Breastplate of Acid Resistance or something, it's not going to matter. But some people want to do things like "this monster should have 30k GP in treasure...okay, he has a Cloak of Resistance +5." That fight just got harder.

[Thomas]

The effect is very limited, even in a case like that. I certainly wouldn't balk at equipping an enemy with a cloak of resistance +5 for no extra XP. It's not that big of a deal, in the end. So it saves against spells and other effects with 25 percentiles more success - big deal, really.

I guess I might be a little unusual, though, in that 1. I feel 3rd edition awards too much XP anyway (since when does a single published adventure take PCs up three or four levels?), and 2. I never modify the XP earned by the circumstances (if the PCs are smart enough to catch my goblins while they're asleep, good for them - they deserve the XP; meanwhile, if they're fighting duergar rogues, it's to be expected the enemy will make sure the encounter takes place in complete darkness and is an ambush).

[SpiderBrigade]

Yeah, I see your point. It also sounds like you play with a very...how to put it, awesome group. They're not going to start whining about "man, that encounter was really a lot harder than it should have been, don't we get more XP?" Which, given the estimated nature of all XP/encounter, CR, and WBL values, is the only reasonable way to play. It serves no purpose to get all fussy because your DM didnt' give you the 3.567% of a level's XP that you think you "should have, RAW" for a given encounter.

[Matthew]

Man oh man. I have never heard anyone talk like that. I think there would be some raised eyebrows if it ever came to pass. It saddens me that people have to cope with that sort of attitude.

[Thomas]

I don't play with a bunch of neurotic accountants, no...

[Mewtarthio]

*blink*

In the RAW, can you take the leadership feat twice? Two cohorts and twice the followers?!? That doesn't sound right.

I believe he meant two leadership-related feats, such as Leadership and Extra Followers or Leadership and Epic Leadership (some of the older dragons qualify for epic feats with their 21+ HD, right?).

[Nahal]

Yeah I'm pretty sure that once you're past 21HD you qualify for epic feats. But a dragon with Epic Spellcasting would be just mean...

[Arbitrarity]

I believe he meant two leadership-related feats, such as Leadership and Extra Followers or Leadership and Epic Leadership (some of the older dragons qualify for epic feats with their 21+ HD, right?).

Indeed. This seems to have been a common mistake.

In the meantime, the red dragon's followers grapple you as a mob!

Dragon with epic spellcasting, epic leadership, and legendary commander.

[Bears With Lasers]

A dragon would need to cast 9th level spells (CL 18 as a sorcerer) to take Epic Spellcasting, so it's out of luck there. But, yes, dragons can seriously abuse Epic feats. This can be used in moderation, too, but you can do some seriously broken things with it.

[Mewtarthio]

A dragon would need to cast 9th level spells (CL 18 as a sorcerer) to take Epic Spellcasting, so it's out of luck there. But, yes, dragons can seriously abuse Epic feats. This can be used in moderation, too, but you can do some seriously broken things with it.

The Great Wyrms of Red, Brass, Bronze Copper, and Silver Dragons all cast as nineteenth-level Sorcerors. Additionally, the Wyrms of the above dragons, as well as Green and Blue Great Wyrms, cast at effective sorceror level 17, requiring only a single level dip into Sorceror to become capable of casting ninth-level spells. Of course, all of the above will have to wait until they get 42 HD to get a new feat.

Hm... I wonder if somebody could "optimize" the Tarrasque with Epic Feats...

[Arbitrarity]

Instead of toughnessx6 or w/e?

[Thrawn183]

heh, my DM runs npc's with pc stats and pc gear for their level. It makes for very challenging and very fun encounters. Though we did lose 2 pc's in our last encounter... He then also occaisionally has them use rings to teleport away so you might not get any monetary reward from the fight at all (though if you do something like disarm them you still get to keep their magic weapon)

note: He does xp for these super npc's the same as if they were your standard elite array with npc wealth.

For some reason I find this campaign to be the most enjoyable I have played in yet. Maybe I just like a good challenge? Well, regardless, it works for me!

[Mewtarthio]

Instead of toughnessx6 or w/e?

Yep. How much impact does all that Toughness really have on Big T's 40+ Magical Beast HD's worth of hit points? At the very least, you can replace something with Improved Toughness.