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Thread: Fighting Will o' Wisps
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2007-03-07, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Fighting Will o' Wisps
Let's imagine we have the standard four person party of 6th level fighting a will o' wisp (CR 6 monster).
The will o' wisp has:Immunity to Magic (Ex): A will-o’-wisp is immune to most spells or spell-like abilities that allow spell resistance, except magic missile and maze.
It also has INT 15 and WIS 16, so it's no mental slouch. And it has AC 29 (same AC for touch attacks), 40 hp and Fly 50' (Perfect). It can do 2d8 electrical per round and with a +16 to hit, it's going to be hitting most of the time.
The wizard has Magic Missile, among other choices:The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than
But:Natural Invisibility (Ex): A startled or frightened will-o’-wisp can extinguish its glow, effectively becoming invisible as the spell.
No mention of what sort of action this is. Free, partial, standard? It's not a spell-like ability, and most Ex are feat-like or natural, the sort of thing that doesn't take an additional action by themselves. I would assume a will o' wisp could do it voluntarily. Invisibility grants total concealment and...A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you, though you can’t actually see it.
So even with a successful Spot check, you can't target the creature with Magic Missile.
Is there any reason why the will o' wisp couldn't attack (standard action), go invisible, then 5' step for its action each round? This would negate Magic Missile, most ray attacks (assuming its formidable touch AC doesn't stop those), cause a 50% miss chance for melee attacks, etc. Of course someone could ready an action for when it next appears.
How does a party without See Invisible kill these things? Are they going to be able to take it?New Terminator movie = Awesome!
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2007-03-07, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
Well, why wouldn't your party have See Invisible? What, isn't your arcanist a Diviner?
Okay, okay, maybe he's not. He should have Glitterdust (hey, look, no-SR) prepared anyway, though. With Will +9 vs. a DC of, oh, 10, plus... level 6, 17 base INT, +1 for level 4, +2 item, +5 from int, +2 from the spell level, a DC 17 on the Glitterdust, the Wisp's got a better chance of saving than not, so it's probably not blinded, but it's still visible.
Also, I'd say that abilities use a standard action unless they specify otherwise, so the tactic you're describing couldn't work.
And if the party really wants to beat the wisp, they can just grapple it. It's got -3.
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2007-03-07, 01:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
Originally Posted by Dervag
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2007-03-07, 01:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
DAMN it Bears! I spent an extra 2 minutes on the d20 SRD double-checking that glitterdust allowed no SR on any portion of its effects, and you ninja me!
Boo.Originally Posted by Dervag
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2007-03-07, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
Okay, let's assume the wizard doesn't have True Strike or Glitterdust memorized (which I believe is the case in my game). What now?
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2007-03-07, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
Extraordinary abilities are free actions unless otherwise noted.
Originally Posted by SRD
(Apart from what was mentioned above, of course)
Originally Posted by SRDLast edited by Lord Lorac Silvanos; 2007-03-07 at 02:05 PM.
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2007-03-07, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-03-07, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
Originally Posted by Dervag
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2007-03-07, 02:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are standard actions unless otherwise noted.
edit: gah, massively simuposted beause I checked the SRD. Lord Silvanos: where is your quote from? Mine is from http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbi...inaryAbilities
Second edit: you guys should probably ready actions to attack it when it becomes visible (grapple would be good, as Bears noted), or try to find a way to not fight it.Last edited by Jacob Orlove; 2007-03-07 at 02:14 PM.
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2007-03-07, 02:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-03-07, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
As for the Will-O-Wisp:
cast Major Image of another adventuring party so it goes and bothers them.
wind wall will keep it away from you
I can't recall: Do extraordinary abilities detect as magical? If they do, cast Arcane sight. Now you know where it is.
Summon a monster with the scenting ability and tell it to go after the wisp.
Sleet storm will make it lose you (blocks all sight, even darkvision).
Protection from Energy (electrical) or Resist Energy will help
Darkness will give it a miss chance
Web the area where it last attacked
give an Unseen Servant a bunch of sand and tell it to sprinkle sand over an area where someone was last attacked.
Throw Orbs of X at it. No SR, requires a ranged touch attack (so yo may miss or get miss chanced, but its something)
That's all I've got off the top of my head.Originally Posted by Dervag
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2007-03-07, 02:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
Hm. Useful answers. I'm the DM in this situation, incidentally. We stopped in the middle of combat last game. Faced with an ambiguous rules situation, I had the will o' wisp withdraw, since it wasn't imperative that the thing fight it out.
Hmmm. Grapple. Assuming you could hit it - doesn't that require hitting its touch AC?
Though really for this exact case, that's not a problem. The PCs are around 10th and they're busy fighting the big boss's main minions. The will o' wisp is just a local nuisance/hanger-on. It has no loyalty to the boss. Having made at least one attack, it could retreat and have credibility later that it "fought bravely" if the big boss survives. It would rather the boss was gone. Too bad the PCs will probably try to kill it anyway afterwards. It's willing to bargain.New Terminator movie = Awesome!
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2007-03-07, 02:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
Oh, Web's another good choice. Good luck moving through that with your STR, sparky!
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2007-03-07, 02:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
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2007-03-07, 02:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
Avatar by KwarkpuddingThe subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs—I was a man before I was a king.
Whoever makes shoddy beer, shall be thrown into manure - town law from Gdańsk, XIth century.
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2007-03-07, 02:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
MM page 315 or
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35
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2007-03-07, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
Originally Posted by Dervag
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2007-03-07, 02:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
Huh. That's odd, I'm looking at that one right now, and it doesn't have the sentence that says it's a free action unless otherwise specified. Which is weird because I remember reading that part in the MM myself.
The first section on combat, however, says:
Extraordinary Abilities: Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are usually standard actions that cannot be disrupted, do not require concentration, and do not provoke attacks of opportunity.
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2007-03-07, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-03-07, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-03-07, 02:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
It is here:
TYPES, SUBTYPES, & SPECIAL ABILITIES
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2007-03-07, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
(Ex) abilities like Improved Grab, Trip, et cetera are free actions, they happen as part of other things. (Ex) abilities like going invisible take a standard action.
Makes perfect sense.
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2007-03-07, 03:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
Ahh...I didn't find it there the first time because I was looking for a bold "extraordinary ability" entry which didn't exist, when in fact it's covered under special abilities. Combat still says if they're actions in and of themselves, they're generally standard actions.
Bears With Lasers said what makes the most sense and works with both definitions, anything that's part of another action is a free action and everything else is a standard action (unless otherwise noted).
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2007-03-07, 03:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
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2007-03-07, 04:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
The RAW disagrees?
"Extraordinary Abilities: Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are usually standard actions that cannot be disrupted, do not require concentration, and do not provoke attacks of opportunity."
Going invisible is an action.
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2007-03-07, 04:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
Personally, I'd go with 'ready an action to hit it when it goes visible on its' turn to attack,' after I figured out its' tactic.
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2007-03-07, 04:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
The first quote is from the PHB and is a general description with loose wording.
Use of the word "usually" could either be a general description of the state of the world when it comes to EX-abilities or it could mean that unless otherwise noted it is a standard action.
Originally Posted by SRD
However, in light of the quote from the MM the latter interpretation would result in a conflict between the two sources.
The first interpretation, that it is just a general description, does not come into conflict with the MM.
Originally Posted by SRD
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2007-03-07, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
Lord Silvanos - that's how I'd read it. That if the monster's entry called out the type of action specifically, then it would usually be a standard action. If it wasn't listed, assume it's free.
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2007-03-07, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
I guess the hypertext SRD I linked to is wrong. Is there a better online one, or am I going to have to start using ctrl-f a lot?
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2007-03-07, 05:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fighting Will o' Wisps
I use www.d20srd.org. Works for me.
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