spamming detect evil

[Ettina]

I had an interesting idea. What if I played as a cleric who randomly spammed detect evil at everyone she met?

If it was played realistically, she should find many 'evil' people who have absolutely nothing to do with the plot, like a random NPC who's abusing his wife and kids but otherwise just an ordinary guy, or a corrupt businessman who's worried all this trouble with the goblins might cut into his profits. It would be interesting to see what the cleric does with knowing there are random evil guys everywhere.

[DM Nate]

You mean kind of like how Paladins can do it at will?

[S@tanicoaldo]

He will go insane.

[AMFV]

I had an interesting idea. What if I played as a cleric who randomly spammed detect evil at everyone she met?

If it was played realistically, she should find many 'evil' people who have absolutely nothing to do with the plot, like a random NPC who's abusing his wife and kids but otherwise just an ordinary guy, or a corrupt businessman who's worried all this trouble with the goblins might cut into his profits. It would be interesting to see what the cleric does with knowing there are random evil guys everywhere.

Well the Cleric should know this already, Knowledge (Religion) is a class skill for them, and that should let them know that there are lots of random Evil people around. What he (or she) does with that knowledge has a lot to do with which particular knowledge has more to do with his (or her) particular religion than anything else.

[Kalmageddon]

This idea is both pointless and stupid.
The game will grind to a halt unless your GM rightfully tells you to cut it out.
Don't do it.

[Prince Raven]

Then everyone would avoid the crazy cleric who goes around invoking their deity to determine the presence of evil. The deity also might get a bit annoyed as well.

[Guizonde]

my dm misread how a paladin's aura detect worked (we were working with few complete books due to a move that went badly). he ruled that my paladin had frequent nosebleeds for no reason unless i actively searched the source of my discomfort. i fainted in a particularly evil location.

i believe that there was a thread or possibly a q and a about this, how a cleric casting detect evil at everything would be seen as extremely rude as it is prying into a person's mind. so, okay for evil clerics but fall-worthy for any good one.

but yeah, it's totally silly and you shouldn't do it, like a merchant haggling for 2 real time hours on the price of a bucket of wheat. (yes, i lived through that, and no, i did not player kill).

[AMFV]

my dm misread how a paladin's aura detect worked (we were working with few complete books due to a move that went badly). he ruled that my paladin had frequent nosebleeds for no reason unless i actively searched the source of my discomfort. i fainted in a particularly evil location.

Well to be fair that's actually a benefit since that's giving you detect evil for free and letting you know when you should be detecting evil.

i believe that there was a thread or possibly a q and a about this, how a cleric casting detect evil at everything would be seen as extremely rude as it is prying into a person's mind. so, okay for evil clerics but fall-worthy for any good one.

Good does not encompass personal freedom in D&D, that's on a different axis. So it wouldn't be fall worthy (depending on your deity) but it might be socially not great.

[Ettina]

i believe that there was a thread or possibly a q and a about this, how a cleric casting detect evil at everything would be seen as extremely rude as it is prying into a person's mind. so, okay for evil clerics but fall-worthy for any good one.

Rude =|= evil

Plus, I thought the falling rule only applied to paladins. I think clerics can be a different alignment than their god, as long as they still mostly follow what their god wants from them, and their god either doesn't notice or doesn't object to their alignment.

Also, do they automatically know you're casting detect evil? I thought they'd need to be paying attention and pass a Knowledge check to figure it out. They'd know you were chanting and doing gestures, but not necessarily why, and the character could just claim to be 'praying' or something.

[Red Fel]

Rude =|= evil

Plus, I thought the falling rule only applied to paladins. I think clerics can be a different alignment than their god, as long as they still mostly follow what their god wants from them, and their god either doesn't notice or doesn't object to their alignment.

Also, do they automatically know you're casting detect evil? I thought they'd need to be paying attention and pass a Knowledge check to figure it out. They'd know you were chanting and doing gestures, but not necessarily why, and the character could just claim to be 'praying' or something.

First: Clerics can be one alignment step away from their deities. Beyond that, they lose their class features, and possibly earn a smitin'.

Second: I don't know which version of D&D you're playing (you might want to move this to the appropriate subforum), but in 3.5, Detect Evil has some limitations.:

• It takes a standard action to cast, and requires focusing for three rounds (18 seconds) to get a proper read on something. You don't just turn it on and get an instant ping - you have to focus for three rounds in order to figure out precisely what is radiating evil, and precisely how much. Even assuming you can bluff your way out of casting the spell, people will notice you staring at them for eighteen seconds, all creepy-stalker-like.
• It doesn't actually do a great job of telling who the evil people are; as a general rule, unless the target is an Evil Undead, Evil Outsider, Evil Magical Doodad, or Cleric of an Evil Deity (regardless of personal morality), they'll probably only generate a faint evil aura.
• It's a spell, so unless you have a source of at-will use (like that Paladin next to you does), you get to "spam" it about five times per day (maybe a few more times if you crank up your Wis).
• It's a divination effect, which means that there are plenty of ways to interfere with it (e.g. Nondetection) or cause it to backfire (e.g. Live My Nightmare).

As an aside, seriously rude. Rude may not be evil, but it ain't pretty. Even the Paladin is looking at you funny. "Dude, really?" he asks, incredulous.

[Slipperychicken]

Pathfinder has a good fix for this: Detect [Alignment] spells don't work on normal creatures under 4 HD (aside from divine casters, undead, and outsiders). That means your small-time crooks and troublemakers aren't going to ping.

Also, I'd think a traveling Cleric or Paladin would just make a list of evil-detecting people when he walks through town, then pass it off to the local clergy or town guard. That way the doesn't waste his time, and he knows those people will be handled by the locals.

[Prince Raven]

Also, do they automatically know you're casting detect evil? I thought they'd need to be paying attention and pass a Knowledge check to figure it out. They'd know you were chanting and doing gestures, but not necessarily why, and the character could just claim to be 'praying' or something.

The Cleric is holding up their divine focus, pointing in front of them and imploring their god to show them the presence of evil (though not necessarily in a language the people around them understand).
They just might figure the cleric is using some sort of detection spell.

[BeerMug Paladin]

If spellcasting existed, I might be suspicious if a stranger who just arrived in the area chanted a spell and waved their arms around, then began staring at me intensely.

Probably get a town guard over there to check out the weird guy who's acting suspicious. Maybe they're casting the spell Detect Appropriate Humanoid Sacrifice.

Most guards have very few ranks in spellcraft or knowledge(arcana/divine).

[Ettina]

If spellcasting existed, I might be suspicious if a stranger who just arrived in the area chanted a spell and waved their arms around, then began staring at me intensely.

What if they aren't staring at you? It's a cone, right? She could easily be staring off into the crowd, and you just happen to be in the affected area.

[Mr Beer]

If I was the GM I would discourage this behaviour:

1. You would discover a lot of plot-irrelevant evil people i.e. would get so much information it becomes irrelevant.

2. People would notice you casting spells and get annoyed.

3. Powerful people would get dangerously annoyed when you invade their privacy like this.

4. Plot relevant evil people would often take precautions.

5. You will mislead yourself. The secret bad guy is not evil, the fake secret bad guy is evil. You just fell into your own trap, such irony.

[BeerMug Paladin]

What if they aren't staring at you? It's a cone, right? She could easily be staring off into the crowd, and you just happen to be in the affected area.

That's true, but even so, in most casual situations there's just no reason to be casting spells out in the general public. You could just as easily be casting something to lay down curses on a building, an area, curse the growth of nearby plant life, place a charm on someone, make the weather suck, etc...

If I see someone behaving in an erratic fashion with no apparent motive, I'm going to be suspicious of them. Someone spellcasting is probably a good indicator of hostile intent somewhere close by. Or an attack about to happen, somewhere.

Of course, if I had magic powers, I'd probably use them in just such an erratic fashion as well. But that's the difference between being a DM and being a player. As a player, you can be as cuckoo-bananas as you like.

[Ettina]

I'm not seeing anything here that would reasonably stop a smart cleric or paladin with a good Bluff score from spamming detect evil. In fact, I'm starting to think they'd have to be an idiot not to spam it.

Yeah, it might annoy people, you won't always catch the real bad guy, and you'd catch some irrelevant bad guys, but think of the advantages. Why wouldn't you use it on anyone who you have to work with, at least? It would catch anyone who wasn't expecting someone to cast detect evil on them. If most clerics/paladins only use detect evil when they're already suspicious, then there'll probably be plenty of villains who'll try to trick them without having undetectable alignment, because on most clerics/paladins it would work. Meanwhile, my character goes and sits in a quiet corner, claiming she needs to pray, starts muttering in a language they don't know while gazing at her focus with her face pointed in their general direction, then gets her results. Then, she takes her teammates aside when the guy's gone, and explains what she sensed. Yeah, the guy knows she's doing cleric stuff, but she just said she was going to pray, and staring at your focus and muttering is consistent with praying.

I already have a spellcaster who spams detect thoughts using a similar trick. She even used detect thoughts in the middle of a city, just outside the house of a questgiver guy. (He wasn't thinking anything suspicious, because he really was the innocent concerned father he seemed to be. And none of the random bystanders caught by the spell knew anything either.) She's also used it in the entranceway of every room in the dungeon she's in, and gotten an inkling of who she's going to be up against as a result. It hasn't broken the game somehow, and spamming detect evil wouldn't either.

[Sartharina]

Clerics don't want to do this to everyone: It's obvious, and burns through spell slots.
However, Paladins are expected to do so - but they should also know how Evil works in their setting (Whether it means "Oh gods this guy's a horrible horrible person who needs immediate intervention!" or merely "a kinda mean guy without redeeming qualities"), and react to the information accordingly (And understand that being TOO rough on evil people in the latter situation can be the greater of two evils).

I do think a Paladin has a duty to alignment-check everyone - taking someone at their face value (What? Saint Brightshine the Gloriously Benevolent is actually a backstabbing Evil Overlord feeding souls to the Demon Prince Asmodeus?!) can have horrific consequences.

[Mr Beer]

I'm not seeing anything here that would reasonably stop a smart cleric or paladin with a good Bluff score from spamming detect evil. In fact, I'm starting to think they'd have to be an idiot not to spam it.

What matters more than my opinion or yours, is what the GM thinks and how they will respond to your actions. If you think it's a great idea and that they will be fine with it, sure go ahead.

[PersonMan]

starts muttering in a language they don't know

A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice.

True, RAW you don't need to speak it loudly, but it's pretty clear that you're not supposed to be able to just go off into a corner and whisper your verbal components.

[Slipperychicken]

So, how many games actually use Spellcraft DCs to identify spells, and roleplay verbal and somatic components? Most of the campaigns I've seen seem to act as if spellcasting was undetectable, and that magic-users can get away with things like casting Fireball and Dominate Person in public without anyone noticing who did it.

Also, such ideas about privacy are pretty modern. I'd imagine the ignorant, suspicious peasants of the danger-filled D&D middle ages would just want someone to take down the evildoers first and foremost.

Additionally, the Cleric could simply cast Detect Evil in private, then walk outside while maintaining concentration. That makes it a lot harder for anyone to tell what he's doing.

[AMFV]

So, how many games actually use Spellcraft DCs to identify spells, and roleplay verbal and somatic components? Most of the campaigns I've seen seem to act as if spellcasting was undetectable, and that magic-users can get away with things like casting Fireball and Dominate Person in public without anyone noticing who did it.

Every campaign I've been in. With the exception of casters who've taken steps to prevent this.

Also, such ideas about privacy are pretty modern. I'd imagine the ignorant, suspicious peasants of the danger-filled D&D middle ages would just want someone to take down the evildoers first and foremost.

I expect that if there was a 1 in 3 chance of them being arrested or detained or otherwise inconvenienced they might have a different tune.

Additionally, the Cleric could simply cast Detect Evil in private, then walk outside while maintaining concentration. That makes it a lot harder for anyone to tell what he's doing.

True, but still it wouldn't really be news to him, a Cleric should know that Evil is prevalent on a small scale, and not necessarily be able to do anything about the particular evil in a small village.

[Kalmageddon]

Clerics don't want to do this to everyone: It's obvious, and burns through spell slots.
However, Paladins are expected to do so - but they should also know how Evil works in their setting (Whether it means "Oh gods this guy's a horrible horrible person who needs immediate intervention!" or merely "a kinda mean guy without redeeming qualities"), and react to the information accordingly (And understand that being TOO rough on evil people in the latter situation can be the greater of two evils).

I do think a Paladin has a duty to alignment-check everyone - taking someone at their face value (What? Saint Brightshine the Gloriously Benevolent is actually a backstabbing Evil Overlord feeding souls to the Demon Prince Asmodeus?!) can have horrific consequences.

So in your games the Paladin has to keep checking everyone's alignment all the time or he will fall? Makes sense. *facepalm*

[AMFV]

So in your games the Paladin has to keep checking everyone's alignment all the time or he will fall? Makes sense. *facepalm*

Well technically failing in your duty doesn't constitute a gross violation of the Paladin's Code, it's at best a minor one.

[Mastikator]

So in your games the Paladin has to keep checking everyone's alignment all the time or he will fall? Makes sense. *facepalm*

Spending 18 seconds out of a day and/or when entering a new area isn't too much to ask for, costs the paladin nothing and would in most situations tip the paladin off if there's something to worry about/intervene/keep a close eye on. "Being evil" isn't a crime, so no matter how you cut it if someone dings then you can't just go medieval on their ass without further investigation, unless you got some kind of "007 license to kill"/"Judge Dredd I am the law" deal with the authorities, but investigating them on the suspicion of crime isn't a crime either.

Basically yes. Whenever you enter a town, a neighborhood, a room/place with influential people, use Detect Magic. It's an "at will" ability because you're supposed to use it more than a wizard uses cantrips.

[Prince Raven]

In my games magic is not subtle and attacking someone just because they detect as evil warrants an alignment check.

[AMFV]

In my games magic is not subtle and attacking someone just because they detect as evil warrants an alignment check.

This certainly makes sense: "Being Evil" isn't worthy of getting smote by a Paladin (no crimes there), and something that pings as Evil isn't necessarily beyond redemption.

[Slipperychicken]

This certainly makes sense: "Being Evil" isn't worthy of getting smote by a Paladin (no crimes there), and something that pings as Evil isn't necessarily beyond redemption.

Even if the Paladin isn't allowed to personally smite on sight, he could hand his findings over to the local law enforcement. That information could prove invaluable in investigations, employment decisions (hmm do we really want the Chaotic Evil guy as captain of the guard?), or even save lives.

[AMFV]

Even if the Paladin isn't allowed to personally smite on sight, he could hand his findings over to the local law enforcement. That information could prove invaluable in investigations, employment decisions (hmm do we really want the Chaotic Evil guy as captain of the guard?), or even save lives.

The Paladin can't tell if he's Chaotic though... So he could be lawful Evil, and a Lawful Evil captain of the guard could be fine. I'm not sure how I feel about Law Enforcement going out of their way to investigate people who have committed no crimes. After all one does not need to violate the laws to be evil, or to have committed grossly evil acts. As far as good societies go we have three options.

1.) An LG society. While an LG society probably doesn't have the same beliefs about personal freedom and liberty that we possess today. They will have a very strict reading on the idea of due process. And putting somebody under scrutiny, even with magical surveillance is a huge resource and time expenditure. Probably not worth the time and effort it would involve in most cases, as Evil people are capable of being functional members of society. An LG society would consider it acceptable to use scanning to determine threats if investigating a crowd though, or might consider it appropriate to use in employment decisions, although that may not always be the case. They wouldn't however consider it worthwhile to use to start investigations.

2.) An CG society, would value personal freedom much to much to allow detecting evil to be used as a criteria for employment or for much else. They might not even allow the use of detect Evil in public. Because it is a violation of somebody's privacy. Now CG Police are actually more likely to investigate random tips (since they value hunches and the like) but not enough to make going around detecting Evil a valuable and worthwhile enterprise. They are also likely to have much less stringent legal procedure rules and therefore might be more willing to accept that sort of evidence regardless of their feelings on personal Freedom.

3.) An NG society would be interested in some level on knowing who the Good and Evil people are. But mostly so that it can help those who are Evil. NG is defined by compassion and to be compassionate one cannot be pre-judging people, as a result you might have Detect Evil being used to give tips to the local clergy so that they can proselytize, but not so much as a legal recourse.

Now these aren't absolute, but I imagine that these would be the overall trends. All other societies would probably think of the idea of using the Good-Evil axis to determine loyalty and propensity for crime as at best "quaint".

[Red Fel]

The Paladin can't tell if he's Chaotic though... So he could be lawful Evil, and a Lawful Evil captain of the guard could be fine. I'm not sure how I feel about Law Enforcement going out of their way to investigate people who have committed no crimes. After all one does not need to violate the laws to be evil, or to have committed grossly evil acts. As far as good societies go we have three options.

1.) An LG society. While an LG society probably doesn't have the same beliefs about personal freedom and liberty that we possess today. They will have a very strict reading on the idea of due process. And putting somebody under scrutiny, even with magical surveillance is a huge resource and time expenditure. Probably not worth the time and effort it would involve in most cases, as Evil people are capable of being functional members of society. An LG society would consider it acceptable to use scanning to determine threats if investigating a crowd though, or might consider it appropriate to use in employment decisions, although that may not always be the case. They wouldn't however consider it worthwhile to use to start investigations.

2.) An CG society, would value personal freedom much to much to allow detecting evil to be used as a criteria for employment or for much else. They might not even allow the use of detect Evil in public. Because it is a violation of somebody's privacy. Now CG Police are actually more likely to investigate random tips (since they value hunches and the like) but not enough to make going around detecting Evil a valuable and worthwhile enterprise. They are also likely to have much less stringent legal procedure rules and therefore might be more willing to accept that sort of evidence regardless of their feelings on personal Freedom.

3.) An NG society would be interested in some level on knowing who the Good and Evil people are. But mostly so that it can help those who are Evil. NG is defined by compassion and to be compassionate one cannot be pre-judging people, as a result you might have Detect Evil being used to give tips to the local clergy so that they can proselytize, but not so much as a legal recourse.

See, I could go the opposite direction. I could easily see an LG society with a benevolent Big Brother figure, with the concept of personal privacy and freedom basically going out the window as long as it serves the public good; as such, the concept of "due process" would be completely fine with the results of unauthorized Detect spells, because all Evil must be rooted out post-haste. By contrast, I could easily see a CG society having such an aversion to the invasion of personal autonomy caused by a Detect spell that they might not accept any evidence resulting from such a source. And I could see an NG society being so anti-Evil that they'd be almost as likely to spam Detect Evil as the spam-happy Cleric/Paladin in the OP.

Note that I say I could go that way, and could see it. Alignments are nuanced like that; it's hard to call them explicitly one thing or another. (Exception: Evil. Evil is always awesome.) The point is, I don't think there's a hard-and-fast rule, even based upon alignment, that says whether the use of Detect Evil is creepy, rude, or illegal, or whether the fruit of such a spell is admissible for the purpose of rummaging through a person's home looking for signs of Asmodeus.