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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

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    Default Monkday Homebrew Monk replacement

    The Monkday thread in the 3.5 sub-forum drove me to try to homebrew my own version of/fix for the class.
    It's been done to death, I know, but any con-crit is always welcome.



    Alignment
    Any lawful

    Hit die
    d8

    Skill points per Level
    6+Int (x4 at first level)

    Class Skills
    Str: Climb, Jump, Swim
    Dex: Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently,
    Con: Concentration
    Int: Search, Craft, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion)
    Wis: Listen, Tumble, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, Heal
    Cha: Diplomacy, Perform
    None: Speak Language

    Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
    1 1 2 2 2 Qi Strike, Unarmed Strike, Qi Focus, AC bonus, Flurry of Blows
    2 2 3 3 3 Evasion, Fast Movement
    3 3 3 3 3 Qi Quickness
    4 4 4 4 4 Flexible Qi Focus (2)
    5 5 4 4 4 Self-Knowledge
    6 6 5 5 5 Qi Clarity
    7 7 5 5 5
    8 8 6 6 6
    9 9 6 6 6 Qi Strength, Improved Evasion
    10 10 7 7 7 Diamond Soul
    11 11 7 7 7 Instant Qi Focus
    12 12 8 8 8
    13 13 8 8 8 Mettle
    14 14 9 9 9
    15 15 9 9 9 Qi Insight
    16 16 10 10 10 Flexible Qi Focus (3)
    17 17 10 10 10
    18 18 11 11 11
    19 19 11 11 11
    20 20 12 12 12 Perfect Qi Focus

    Class Features

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency
    Weapons: club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling
    Armor & Shields: none

    Special: Any special ability that requires the monk to be unarmored is likewise hindered by the use of a shield.

    Qi Focus
    A monk has a number of Qi points equal to his Wisdom bonus. These points are allocated to enable or improve other Monk abilities.
    Allocating or reallocating a single Qi point is usually a Move action which does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
    Alternately, a monk may reallocate all their Qi points through 1 full-round of intense meditation. This option does provoke attacks of opportunity and requires concentration.
    Allocating or reallocating Qi is always a purely mental action.

    Unless otherwise noted, the maximum number of Qi points a monk may invest in a single ability at first level is 1. This increases by 1 for each 5 Monk levels.
    Qi points remain allocated until a monk chooses to reallocate them.

    Self-Knowledge
    At level 5, a monk's Qi pool increases to twice his Wis bonus.

    Instant Qi Focus
    Beginning at level 11, a monk may use Qi Focus as free action rather than a move action once per encounter.

    Flexible Qi focus
    Beginning at level 4, a monk's may reallocate up to two Qi points when using Qi Focus.
    At level 16, he may instead allocate 3 points.
    A monk may still use a full round action to reallocate all of their Qi points.

    Perfect Qi Focus
    At level 20, a monk may reallocate all of their Qi points as a free action. This is usable once per encounter.

    Qi Strike
    When making an attack with an unarmed strike or a weapon for which the Monk class grants proficiency, a monk may choose to use his wisdom bonus instead of his strength bonus on attack and damage rolls.
    In addition, a monk may invest Qi Points to improve this ability.
    For each point invested, the monk's Qi Strike benefits from one the effects on the list to the right.
    These effect overlap rather than stack with any existing enhancement to the monk's weapon from another source.
    Ex: If a level 13 monk's unarmed strike has a +1 enhancement bonus from a magic fang spell and they invest 3 Qi in Qi strike to improve their enhancement bonus, their unarmed strike is treated as a +3 weapon (not a +4 weapon).
    Qi Strike Effects
    • The strike counts as a specific alchemical material for the purposes of overcoming DR.
    • The strike counts as lawful for the purposes of overcoming DR. If the monk invests 2 points in this option, the strike is instead treated as an axiomatic weapon.
    • The strike gains a +1 enhancement bonus (this option stacks with itself and can be taken multiple times, subject to the normal maximum for Qi Investment).
    • The strike ignores hardness as though it were an adamantine weapon.
    • The strike is treated as a ghost-touch weapon.
    • The strike is treated as a keen weapon.
    • The strike is treated as a wounding weapon.

    Unarmed Strike
    A monk is treated as having improved unarmed strike, even if would not normally qualify for the prerequisites.
    A monk's unarmed strike can be treated as either a manufactured or natural weapon at his discretion.
    A monk may add his full Strength bonus to any unarmed strike and may choose to deal lethal or non-lethal damage without penalty.
    A Monk is automatically treated as proficient with his unarmed Strike

    A small or medium monk's unarmed strike deals 1d6 base damage.
    A monk may invest Qi points to improve their unarmed strike damage

    For monks larger than medium size (or when dealing with effects that increase a monk's natural size), treat these values as those of a medium sized weapon and increase them according to the standard rules for Weapon size.

    For monks smaller than small size (or when dealing with effects that decrease a monk's natural size), treat these values as those of a small sized weapon and increase them according to the standard rules for Weapon size.
    Monk Unarmed Strike Damage
    Qi Points Damage
    0 1d6
    1 1d8
    2 1d10
    3 2d6
    4 2d8
    5 2d10

    Flurry of Blows
    For each Qi points invested in this ability, the monk may make an additional attack as part of a Standard action attack. Each additional attack carries a -2 penalty (ex: if a monk invests 2 points in this ability, he would get 2 additional attack: one at a -2 penalty and one at a -4 penalty).
    This ability may not be used with the Full Attack action.

    AC Bonus
    While unarmored and carrying no more than a light load, a monk adds their wisdom bonus to his AC as an insight bonus. This applies even against touch attacks or when flat-footed, but not when the monk is immobilized or helpless.
    For each Qi point invested in this ability, a monk gains and additional 1/2 his Wisdom bonus to AC, rounded down.

    Fast Movement
    While unarmored and carrying no more than a light load, a monk gains a +10 foot enhancement bonus to their base speed.
    For each Qi point invested in this ability, this bonus increases by 10 feet.

    Evasion
    As the Rogue Special Ability, except that the monk must be unarmored (rather than unarmored or in light armor)

    Improved Evasion
    As the Rogue Special Ability, except that the monk must be unarmored (rather than unarmored or in light armor)

    Diamond Soul
    At 10th level, a monk may invest Qi points to gain spell resistance.
    As long as they have at least 1 Qi point invested in this ability, they gain spell resistance equal to 10 + Monk level.
    For each additional Qi point invested, the spell resistance improves by 1/2 their Monk level.
    This may be suppressed for 1 round as a free action.

    Mettle
    If a Monk of 13th level or greater makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save, the effect is instead negated completely.

    Qi Quickness
    Beginning at 3rd Level, a Monk may allocate Qi points to gain an insight bonus to a Dexterity-based Monk Class Skill.
    The bonus scales based on the skill points the Monk has invested (see table to the right).
    If a monk invests Qi in more than one Dexterity-based class skill using this ability, the maximum Qi they can invest (1/4 Monk Level, rounded up) is treated separately for each skill.

    This is an insight bonus, not actual skill ranks. A monk with no actual ranks is still untrained.
    It does not allow early access to feats, prestige classes, or other character features which require a certain number of skill ranks to function.
    It may, however, make it possible to achieve certain skill uses which would normally only be available at much higher levels (such as Balancing on a liquid or a cloud).
    Skill Ranks Insight bonus
    0 Ranks or 1/2 Rank + (1/2 Monk Level, rounded up) per Qi point invested
    ≥1 rank, but not max ranks: + (Monk Level) per Qi point invested
    Max Ranks for level (CL+3) +(2 * Monk level) per Qi point invested
    Qi Clarity
    As Qi Quickness, but for Wisdom-based Monk Class Skills.
    Additionally, with used in conjunction with the Heal skill, this allows the monk to cure diseases and poisons which would not normally be subject to non-magical cures. The DC to do is 20 higher than the normal savings throw DC for the poison or disease.

    Qi Strength
    As Qi Quickness, but for Strength-based Monk Class Skills.

    Qi Insight
    As Qi Quickness, but for Intelligence-based Monk Class Skills.
    Additionally, the monk can use this ability in conjunction with Speak Language. Doing so allows the monk to speak one language per Qi point invested.
    Last edited by Hecuba; 2014-08-25 at 08:00 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: Monkday Homebrew Monk replacement

    Specific things I was wavering on:
    • I was considering full BAB, but I fear that this version of Flurry might be to powerful in conjunction therewith.
    • The Skill investment options exist largely to allow early access to some of the Epic skill usages. Are there any that are still too far out of reach?
    • I considered abilities for the Con and Dex skills as well. With only only Concentration, Diplomancy, and Perform they seemed to narrow to be worth the characters. Are there any skills I'm blanking on that would be worth adding to the list and adding a skill booster ability for those stats?
    • Is it worth adding back in the core bonus feats? There are certainly levels available to slot them in.

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Default Re: Monkday Homebrew Monk replacement

    It's been a bit since I've offered feedback on anything, but I'll give it a go.

    A quick peak at the table fills me with concern, as that I see a lot of dead levels. I don't know what folks around here are going on about these days, but a year or so ago, it seemed like blasphemy to leave dead levels anywhere. I stick to that philosophy myself, but I like goodies every level.

    Your monk is not proficient with their unarmed attack. I do not think this is intentional. I am curious as to why you haven't simply offered them simple weapon proficiency. I mean, even sorcerers have simple weapon proficiency. And monks are supposed to have been training for combat (albeit non-normative combat). They may not train with long swords and great hammers and what have you, but they should be able to figure out how to use weapons that any basic cleric can utilize.
    As a combat based class, I'd go so far as to give them martial weapon proficiency, then offer some class features that specialize in the "secret farm weapons" or "specialized monk weapons" or what have you.
    Strange that you list the monk's unarmed attack proficiency in a class feature, and not within the base chasis. Are you planning on it being able to be traded out with an Alternate Class Feature of some sort?

    Allocating Qi is a Standard Action, which makes it tricky to use with attack routines. This suggests to me that you are looking at changing the geneally agreed upon "Striker" architype that the orriginal monk attempted for. What roll do you see this class fulfilling?

    Qi focus allows a monk to reallocate skill points?
    Alternately, a monk may reallocate all their skill points through 1 full-round of intense meditation. This option does provoke attacks of opportunity and requires concentration.
    Interesting choice, if so, seems like it belongs somewhere else. I hate to bring up the cheese of cross-class skills in UMD, but being able to pull those out of a hat for when needed, then put them away when Climb, Swim, Profession (Basket Sales Rep.) are more useful, it seems... potentially capable of outshining others in an undesirable way from first level onward. It also doesn't seem to make a whole lot of thematic sense.

    Max Qi bonus rounding up is a bit odd. A better wording may be to indicate that it is +1 at first level, and increased by +1 at every 5 levels (it should work out to the same pattern, if my math is correct).

    Class features are listed in an odd order, at first glance it seems that Qi is not stated to actually improve anything... I think standard format is to list class features in order that they are attained.

    Qi strike seems a bit like a watered down Soulblade class feature. Perhaps there are ways to improve upon that structure?

    Flurry of blows and Medium base attack bonus is a commonly critiqued short-coming of the base monk class. I do not see how you intend to improve upon that. It is nice that you've allowed it with the Standard Attack Action, to be used following a Move Action. Still, I think you'll end up with the same Flurry of misses issue. Full BAB would not be remiss here.

    With all the abilities that the Monk normally gained for free, but now cost a rather limited resource Qi, the monk seems like an even better class to dip rather than take full on.

    Diamond Soul: Spell-Resistance is also commonly critiqued as an unfortunate downside rather than a positive class feature. Unless there were some clause about friendly spells being allowed through, without taking a Move Action (or was it Standard Action) I image most players will not invest Qi into this class feature.

    I am not sure where your design goals lie, but I do not think this has fully improved on the existing monk.
    It has slightly better AC, some lesser Factotum skills shenanigans, and mettle, in exchange for a higher rate of movement (Qi points will likely not be spent on move speed when they are so limited), unarmed damage progression (also not likely to be invested in), Dimension Door (not really that great of a feature anyhow, I suppose), Minor Healing (as before, not that great), but also Stunning Fist, Quivering Palm, and some nice feats.
    Maybe it's a touch better, I'm no great judge of this sort of thing, but it's become far more of a skill-monkey than a combat class.
    Maybe if you listed your goals and the like more constructive feedback could be offered.

    That's my two copper points; feel free to use what helps and ignore everything else.
    Come with me, time out of mind...

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: Monkday Homebrew Monk replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by ChumpLump View Post
    A quick peak at the table fills me with concern, as that I see a lot of dead levels.
    I did consider adding in the standard monk bonus feats throughout the dead levels. Would that help?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChumpLump View Post
    Strange that you list the monk's unarmed attack proficiency in a class feature, and not within the base chasis.
    Just following the pattern of how the existing class details it's unarmed strike-related stuff. This, along with several of your other formatting points, are entirely valid: I probably won't fix them tonight though.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChumpLump View Post
    Allocating Qi is a Standard Action, which makes it tricky to use with attack routines. This suggests to me that you are looking at changing the geneally agreed upon "Striker" architype that the orriginal monk attempted for. What roll do you see this class fulfilling?
    Still generally dealing with melee damage. Keep in mind that the the allocated Qi points stay allocated until you change them: the standard action change is intended to allow some alteration if needed.
    Still, if standard is too costly move will work (perhaps slotting in a 3 points per focus in with the freed slot).

    Quote Originally Posted by ChumpLump View Post
    Qi focus allows a monk to reallocate skill points?
    Typo. Should have been Qi points. Fixing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChumpLump View Post
    Max Qi bonus rounding up is a bit odd. A better wording may be to indicate that it is +1 at first level, and increased by +1 at every 5 levels (it should work out to the same pattern, if my math is correct).
    Much better wording. Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChumpLump View Post
    Flurry of blows and Medium base attack bonus is a commonly critiqued short-coming of the base monk class. I do not see how you intend to improve upon that. It is nice that you've allowed it with the Standard Attack Action, to be used following a Move Action. Still, I think you'll end up with the same Flurry of misses issue. Full BAB would not be remiss here.
    The iterative schedule on flurry is significantly more generous than the standard BAB iterative progression: combining the two fully would seem like a nightmare with pounce.
    Would Full BAB but flurry only on a Standard action attack seem reasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChumpLump View Post
    With all the abilities that the Monk normally gained for free, but now cost a rather limited resource Qi, the monk seems like an even better class to dip rather than take full on.
    I was considering making the Qi pool based on Level rather than Wis. Still not sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChumpLump View Post
    Diamond Soul: Spell-Resistance is also commonly critiqued as an unfortunate downside rather than a positive class feature. Unless there were some clause about friendly spells being allowed through, without taking a Move Action (or was it Standard Action) I image most players will not invest Qi into this class feature.
    I was wondering about that myself: if being able to use it only for fights when you want it isn't enough, free action to suppress for 1 round isn't horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChumpLump View Post
    some lesser Factotum skills shenanigans
    I think I may have undersold this. The skill shenanigans are far more generous than Factutum: you should be able to hit DC40 Epic Skill checks by level 10, and DC 60 by 13.
    This opens up things like:
    • Pinpointing invisible creatures and sensing the presence of magic.
    • Balancing on a hair thin surface.
    • Replicating features like the slow fall and healing class features (though only when heavily out of combat for the later).

    The goal of those abilities was to move away from UMD reliance towards obscene skill shenanigans.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChumpLump View Post
    Maybe if you listed your goals and the like more constructive feedback could be offered.
    1. Increase adaptability (by adding epic skill usage pre-epic, kept flexible with Qi reallocation).
    2. Decrease MAD (Wis to attacks, wis to power class features)
    3. Improve Mobility (Flury on Standard attack)

    There are some that things here that still seem to come up too late. With the Qi investment cap, I could probably double it without too much trouble and get the 100 DC checks in at this range.

    Based on some of your comments (particularly involving things that won't be invested in), I think I may have made Qi too scarce. Outright moving it to twice Wis bonus, however, would make the pool uselessly large at low levels.
    Perhaps:
    • Qi focus as move rather than standard as base. Remove Fast Qi Focus.
    • At 4, add Flexible Qi focus (2 points).
    • At 5, slot in Self-Knowledge: your Qi pool is now equal to twice your Wis bonus.
    • At 16, change to Flexible Qi focus (3 points).
    Last edited by Hecuba; 2014-08-25 at 07:51 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
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    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: Monkday Homebrew Monk replacement

    I think Chumplump mostly has the right idea with some of his more specific critiques, but I respectfully disagree with the notion that this is somehow not a substantial power boost over the standard Monk, as I hope to demonstrate here.

    Granted, you said that about this class prior to several modifications being made, so I don't know if your stance has changed since then.

    I get that the way the Qi pool class features work is that you're avoiding rigid opportunity costs; you can shift gears relatively quickly. But I feel like some uses of Qi as written here are just far and above more useful, and some are a very big deal. I'm going to do a little demonstration.

    Let's take a 15th level Monk a la this thread.

    Let's also presume the following base ability scores before magic items:

    STR 10 (+0); DEX 14 (+2); CON 10 (-); INT 10 (-); WIS 18 (+4); CHA 7 (-1)

    as it stands I see no reason not to invest heavily in Wisdom, for reasons that I hope will be evident soon.

    this is based on a 20 point-buy and ability score level-ups, with no racial adjustments, assuming human.
    It's a bit min-maxed, but not necessarily really hideously high stats either (I hope). Keep in mind that the use of wisdom-increasing magic items might significantly increase what this character can accomplish.

    Feats have not presently been accounted for, but you can imagine the havoc that might be wrought by good feat optimization. It's sort of 3.5's hallmark.

    Our cap on any one ability is 4, as of this level, if I'm reading correctly, and our Qi pool is 8.

    Using the above, I'd like to model a few things our friend here could potentially do. The following is kinda min-maxy, but that's deliberate; I want to show what the limits of this class are so you can plan around the unexpected if you make future revisions.

    Spoiler: Offense-Focused
    Show


    So, most of the Qi strike abilities are situational, but having them as options is always nice. Let's presume, for now, that we're attacking a corporeal opponent who doesn't have any damage reduction (or at least none that we care about.)

    First priority is boosting that flurry, because we're getting a much better deal from Flurry of Blows than from our own attack rate. Let's drop four points into that. The ability to use Wisdom when fighting unarmed is a gimme, and it's our best score by far, so let's use that.

    Flurry Attack Bonuses: +19/+17/+15/+13/+11
    Full Attack Bonuses: +19/+14/+9

    So we can now run up to people within our movement speed and, presuming our attacks hurt them, we can do a great deal of drubbing in the same round. Neat.

    But wait: there's more

    We have four points not otherwise occupied, so we'll place those in Qi Strike enhancement bonuses. This gives us (if I understand correctly) a +4 to attack AND damage rolls. Our other option is Unarmed Strike, increasing our damage die to 2d8 (assuming medium). 1d6 + 4 averages out to about 7.5, and 2d8 averages out to about... 9, actually, but 1.5 damage for 4 to attack rolls doesn't seem an even trade. Increasing unarmed damage might theoretically be a better option in some situations, but... probably not, for reasons I'll get to. Generally, the enhancement bonus is objectively better by virtue of being more accurate. Also, we're adding our Wisdom bonus to both accuracy and damage already, so our totals come tooooooooooo...

    Final Flurry: +23/+21/+19/+17/+15, at 1d6 + 8 damage per hit, and we get to keep our move action. Not too shabby, especially considering that we can use that Wisdom bonus with any monk weapon. Drop a +1 enhancement bonus on, say, a single nunchaku, and then invest all of your remaining weapon budget on wisdom boosts and damaging effects. Can our nunchaku do acid damage? Acid damage is sweet.

    Also, this is more of an anecdote than anything, but technically nothing in Flurry of Blows disallows you from applying it to ranged weapons, so Flurry of Bows is a possibility. Same with Qi Strike, too, which means wisdom on crossbow attack and damage rolls... too bad it's reload time makes it functionally un-flurryable.


    Spoiler: Defense-Focused
    Show

    So, the issue of "tanks" in D&D is somewhat muddled; some GMs will let you attract the attention of the enemy with good roleplaying, others with taunts, and still more use enemies that have strategies in mind when the fight starts. In that sense, making a tank is not inherently practical, because it depends on enemy strategy. However, let's just go ahead and assume we have means with which to interpose our face between our enemy's weapons and our allies' bodies at least some of the time.

    Our base AC is currently 16 (+2 from Dex, and +4 from Wisdom) FF 14 TC 16. The obvious choice for becoming tankier is to snag more AC, right? Let's make a 4 Qi point investment in that.

    Base AC 24 (+2 Dex, +4 Wis, +8 from AC Bonus Qi Investment) FF 22 TC 24

    For the other four, points, you'll be shifting gears as the situation calls for. Mobility is always handy, so a +40 to movement speed would be nice. Of more importance, though, is the fact that high level monsters commonly have magic, so Spell Resistance would not go amiss, even granted you're making yourself hard to buff.

    At a 4 investment, we have SR 10 + 2.5x monk level, for a total of 47.

    That is gonna be really hard to beat. Actually, for a comparably-leveled caster, it would be pretty much impossible.


    Spoiler: Skill-Monkeying
    Show

    We have access to Qi Quickness, Qi Clarity, Qi Strength, and Qi Insight. Not too shabby.

    So, getting into precise details would be a lengthy affair, as there are a lot of skills to cover, but let's assume there are three broad levels of investment, where skill points are concerned: nothing, "half ranks" (for us, that'd mean 9 ranks), and full investment (for us, 18.)

    Our Qi points are invested on the basis of individual skills. So I'm going to examine both what happens with a minimum Qi investment (1) and a maximum Qi investment (4)

    No Investment Skill:
    1 Qi: 0 Ranks + 8 bonus = 8
    4 Qi: 0 Ranks + 32 bonus = 32

    Half Investment Skill:
    1 Qi: 9 Ranks + 15 bonus = 24
    4 Qi: 9 Ranks + 60 bonus = 69

    Full Investment Skill:
    1 Qi: 15 Ranks + 30 bonus = 45
    4 Qi: 15 Ranks + 120 bonus = 135

    If those numbers aren't staggering to you, I don't know what is.


    tl;dr Look out, Wizard. A new class is in town, and it has the ability to reinvent itself as a full round action instead of just once per day.

    The abilities and bonuses achievable through Qi are absolutely staggering, especially in terms of achieving epic level skill bonuses. I realize that is somewhat deliberate, and I confess that I don't know what the ultimate balancing effect of that is, but I can tell you that this makes the Monk hands down a better skill monkey than even the Bard, at least for any skills that aren't Charisma based; they have very high maximums and can make very good use of having two ranks in just about every skill, making them very flexible as well. It's offensive and defensive capabilities are also impressive, and it's very easy for the monk to get by with little more build complexity than ramping up Wisdom and taking Core feats to be dangerous.

    Prescription: I think you should try to model the power level of this class around the Bard: being able to permanently specialize in one thing while still being flexible enough to be okay at several other things. Some abilities probably need to have their Qi point scaling lowered to prevent things from getting out of hand, and not all Qi investments are equal. As it is currently, this take on the Monk concept is probably the strongest non-spellcaster hands down, and probably gives some of the weaker casters a run for their money.
    Last edited by Stiq; 2014-08-26 at 03:01 PM.
    In tabletop RPGs, modification is the sincerest form of flattery.
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    Default Re: Monkday Homebrew Monk replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by Stiq View Post
    I think Chumplump mostly has the right idea with some of theirmore specific critiques...
    I prefer they/them pronouns, and I'm glad my assessment is fairly accurate to your understanding.
    Your assessment of the class seems to be more in depth in mine, and I concede it does seem to be a fair bit more powerful than I had assessed.
    Full Base Attack bonus helps a bunch with flurry.

    Addressing the Design Goals

    1) Increase adaptability (by adding epic skill usage pre-epic, kept flexible with Qi reallocation).

    Well, this character is rather adaptable, this is true. Something seems off to me, but I can't quite nail it down.
    I think my issue is, if you want a Monk to be able to do pre-epic skill things, the way to do it isn't by granting them epic skill boosts in blankets, but rather powers to do epic-level skill things. A specific power to walk on clouds, a specific power to escape artist through solid walls... maybe. It seems blanket skill boosts are just begging for abuse. It may also help with the whole empty class table.


    2) Decrease MAD (Wis to attacks, wis to power class features)

    As Stiq elegantly points out, this has been accomplished, perhaps with overkill.


    3) Improve Mobility (Flury on Standard attack)

    More or less accomplished.

    Spell-Resistance: If you're going with the lowering-raising route, I'd suggest allowing it to be lowered as an Immediate action, as that beneficial spell effects can be tricky to predict. I prefer models of SR where it can be voluntarily "failed" not unlike a saving throw.

    This class seems to fill the niches [Striker] [Mobility] and [Skill-Monkey]

    You've met your design goals, but I wonder, what sort of tier are you angling for?
    I'm no good at tier assignment, but I'd place this as a solid high Tier 3, or a questionable Tier 2.

    Crazy invested skill reassignment at the drop of a hat is nice, but doesn't quite compare to casting.
    Come with me, time out of mind...

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    Default Re: Monkday Homebrew Monk replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by ChumpLump View Post
    I prefer they/them pronouns, and I'm glad my assessment is fairly accurate to your understanding.
    Forgive me. I'll make a note of that.

    I concur with most of the above; Standard Flurry is a good call, though perhaps the diminishing accuracy is a bit too forgiving. Maybe on top of the existing precedent, -2 on all attack rolls?

    As a general rule, I feel like a lot of abilities just scale too well with Qi investment, and the cap is perhaps too high (possibly 1, increasing to 2 at level 6, 3 at level 11, and so on). I concur with the sentiment that giving them epic level skill rolls they can use as much as they want doesn't really work as well as giving them the ability to do impossible things occasionally, which admittedly calls for more delicate rules design.

    I don't dislike the concept; monks having versatility fits with that "self-perfection" concept well, and using Qi/Ki to enhance natural abilities makes sense in the context of their flavor, but maybe build versatility is better than being able to shift gears in the middle of things. I feel that the Qi Investment concept is really interesting, but there should be greater limits on how it can be used. For instance, the Factotum is a class literally designed around selectively imitating other classes, and I believe that class can generally only respec itself once per day (with minor exceptions). As it stands I think the Monk has too much martial arts/Wuxia trope baggage to make a good jack-of-all-trades class, and the things they're able to do in your current build - especially with skills - are far and above what pretty much any non-spellcaster class can do, and they can use them basically without limit.

    Personal recommendation: If you want to keep running with the Qi Investment concept you've outlined here, tweak things, reduce their overall power, and supplement it with some new class features, preferably some things that are usable a limited number of times per day.

    In terms of what you would add: thematically speaking, Monks are an excellent candidate for spell-like ability use. Existing spells include things among the lines of what you already have (better attacking capability, large short-term bonuses to skill rolls, better defenses) but by using spell-like abilities you can pace how much they can do in a 24 hour period. Spells like Water Walk, Shout, Jump, and True Sight fit well with the concept of a spiritual, supernatural martial artist and make good use of content that already exists in the game.

    Regarding rebalancing flurry: I actually think giving Monks full BAB in conjunction with the ability to make all of their attacks as a standard action is a good way to handle the issue without overcomplicating things too much.
    In tabletop RPGs, modification is the sincerest form of flattery.
    Homebrews | Book of Revision Series: Martial Power

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    ElfMonkGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: Monkday Homebrew Monk replacement

    Oh, important edit made to my breakdown post:

    Full Investment Skill:
    1 Qi: 15 Ranks + 30 bonus = 45
    4 Qi: 15 Ranks + 120 bonus = 135
    That... that is a large number.
    In tabletop RPGs, modification is the sincerest form of flattery.
    Homebrews | Book of Revision Series: Martial Power

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
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    Default Re: Monkday Homebrew Monk replacement

    Thanks everyone for the feedback.


    On the flurry topic, the -2 was initially paired with Rogue BAB progression.
    Is the -2 good enough to move it back to less than full bab? Or maybe simply the standard -5 penalty that normal iteratives get?
    I also played with higher cost to invest in this ability (2 a I per attack instead of 1): yes/no?


    On spell resistance: I don't mind close to unbeatable spell resistance as long as it costs there is significant opportunity cost.
    Under the initial Qi point schedule, full investment would have cost about 1/3 to 1/2 of the Qi pool.
    Since the Qi pool has been effectively doubled since I priced it, the formula probably should change.

    Given the Higher Qi pool, what general neighborhood seems appropriate for resistance chance @ full investment?
    75%? 60%?


    Quote Originally Posted by Stiq View Post
    That... that is a large number.
    I agree, though if I cut it too much the 100 Dc checks may stay out of reach for too long. Perhaps 1.5 * monk level for the fully trained skill bost instead of 2*monk level? Keeping it at Monk level kept the 100 DC checks out of reach for too long.

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