On Wizards, Damage, and Tactics

[Olethros]

So, many people have mentioned on many threads that a Wizard should (almost)Never include direct damage spells, or perhaps damage spells at all in there spell list.

Why?

Whats wrong with good ol' reliable Fire Ball? What he do to deserve our scorn? Maby its just me, and my still archaich 2nd ed AD&D thinking (for me sorcerer was just a different name for wizard) but arcane damage dealer is a fundamental part of the wizard contribution. Especially at higher levels, and especially without sourcerers and the like in the party.

What do you non-DD spell slingers put in your spell book/list instead? And for the most part Im not talking about spells over 4th lvl. I know that once I can call down the big boys magic missile is a little less sexy, but I play most of my games between levels 1 and 10.

Add into that a little "thought experiment" if you will. Whats in your spell book if the only source you can draw from is the PhB? How does it change?

[Jasdoif]

Look at this way: you can cast fireball, a 3rd level spell, to do fire damage in a 20-ft burst. Or you can cast stinking cloud, a 3rd level spell, to make opponents in a 20-ft spread unable to do anything except take a move action for the next few turns. And spell resistance doesn't apply to stinking cloud.

[Zincorium]

The problem with direct damage spells is that they generally don't take out even-CRed opponents with a single spell, whereas most of the save or be screwed variety most certainly do. They also tend to be more enemy exclusive, so instead of dealing those pretty little d6s (which don't do all that much when you really get down to it, fireball maxes out at 35 average damage) to your party members as well as the BBEG, you can cast sleep or the like and not worry about it.

[Swordguy]

Look at this way: you can cast fireball, a 3rd level spell, to do fire damage in a 20-ft burst. Or you can cast stinking cloud, a 3rd level spell, to make opponents in a 20-ft spread unable to do anything except take a move action for the next few turns. And spell resistance doesn't apply to stinking cloud.

Although, to finish out that thought, when the cloud clears, whatever was in it is still there and probably very upset with your for incapacitating it. You do have to do damage somehow...

(Thinks that save/suck spells in D&D are entirely too good for their levels, or at all)

[iceman]

Not to mention that it is better to just buy or make wands and scrolls with your damage dealing spells rather than burn a spell slot on them. You can then fill your spell slots with spells that may not ordinarily be helpful except for in the right situations. I don't know how many times i've pulled my butt or the party out of a bad situation with the right spell selection for the day.

[Marius]

It's simply better to use other spells. Trade "fireball" for "haste", you average fireball deals (at 5th level) 5d6=17.5 fire damage and at that level your party fighter could do the same or more damage with his attack if you haste him (and everyone else in your party) everyone now has another attack, more AC, more speed, etc. and it last 5 rounds not 1.
At 5th level you will also have Fly, Wind wall, Dispel Magic, Deep Splumber and slow they are all better than fireball and you can't even get them all.

[Swordguy]

It's simply better to use other spells. Trade "fireball" for "haste", you average fireball deals (at 5th level) 5d6=17.5 fire damage and at that level your party fighter could do the same or more damage with his attack if you haste him (and everyone else in your party) everyone now has another attack, more AC, more speed, etc. and it last 5 rounds not 1.
At 5th level you will also have Fly, Wind wall, Dispel Magic, Deep Splumber and slow they are all better than fireball and you can't even get them all.

Well, yeah. They're 5th level spells being compared to a 3rd level spell. They'd BETTER be superior.

Oh, and hasting everyone in your party? So, what you're saying is that using 4ish 3rd lvl slots will produce a superior result to using 1 3rd level spell slot.

...


BRILLIANT!

[Marius]

Well, yeah. They're 5th level spells being compared to a 3rd level spell. They'd BETTER be superior.

Oh, and hasting everyone in your party? So, what you're saying is that using 4ish 3rd lvl slots will produce a superior result to using 1 3rd level spell slot.

...


BRILLIANT!

No, they are 3rd level spells (for a 5th level wizard).

And haste works on one creature/level so at level 5 you can haste 5 people
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm

[Swordguy]

No, they are 3rd level spells (for a 5th level wizard).

And haste works on one creature/level so at level 5 you can haste 5 people
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm

Ah, sunofva...

Sorry. Reading articles while at work is a tricky business. I completely misread yours. Apologies.

[Jasdoif]

Although, to finish out that thought, when the cloud clears, whatever was in it is still there and probably very upset with your for incapacitating it. You do have to do damage somehow...

That much is OK, the condition persists for 2-5 rounds after the cloud clears (like when it disperses at the end of the spell), your melee guys can take care of them then. And killing everything you meet isn't a requirement, you can move away from or past your opponents while they're nauseated.

And that there is the general argument against simple damage spells. Why cast a spell that can contribute to combat when you can cast a spell that more-or-less wins the encounter instead?

[Marius]

Ah, sunofva...

Sorry. Reading articles while at work is a tricky business. I completely misread yours. Apologies.

It's, I'm at work right now, don't worry about it.

[iceman]

Ray of exhaustion is one nasty 3rd level spell that you can prepare instead of fireball. Fly is an important spell at low levels when your party is to poor to buy items that grant flightprotection from energy is also an important defense against other enemy spellcasters. Deep slumber is good to use against ememies with poor will saves at lower levels. Spectral hand is good to use when you want to give an ally in melee a buff spell with the range of touch. I won't go any higher with other spell selections unless it comes up.
However, the point I guess I was trying to make earlier was that you can use wands and scrolls to cast your damage dealing spells from so that you can prep other spells instead. And that it is better to use the wand for the damage dealing spells because they can have an effect in almost any battle your in while some of the other spells are really only usable against certain enemies or in certain situations.

[Fax Celestis]

The other aspect of damage spells is, frankly, everyone can do damage. Not everyone can do things like hold person, solid fog, invisibility, etc.

[Ikkitosen]

I thought Haste was one target too - I just changed my new wizard's spell selection 'cos of this thread.

[Swordguy]

That much is OK, the condition persists for 2-5 rounds after the cloud clears (like when it disperses at the end of the spell), your melee guys can take care of them then. And killing everything you meet isn't a requirement, you can move away from or past your opponents while they're nauseated.

And that there is the general argument against simple damage spells. Why cast a spell that can contribute to combat when you can cast a spell that more-or-less wins the encounter instead?

Wait...I thought we had decided that melee characters were mechanically pointless and inefficient, and everyone should just play full casters. Otherwise they're just bad D&Ders. So, what's the group doing with fighters or such?

(sarcasm, BTW)

[Olethros]

Im sory I mentioned fireball specifically, its more of a joke really. But somebody brushed on my question already again anyway. (Thanks Swordguy)

I stinky clouded (can a spell be a verb?) the monsters, someone has to kill them still. A move action can keep them away from the fighters, or at least some of the hits. and if they (or the DM) are smart, they can draw your team out away from each other untill the effect wears off. Now your group is out of position, or atleast not where they would like to be, and you're still facing the same number of opponents. This says nothing of those that saved.

As far as just moving past them, sure this "wins the encounter" in that you get xp for it, but now there are baddies behind you, who know where you are and what you can do. Fine if it was some wolves othe beast that will likelly move on to easier prey, but not if it was that group of brigands, scouts for the invading army, etc.

Who is dealing the arcane damage for the party if the wizard is packing all utility spells and you dont have another arcane caster?

What about the monster that has DR against what the fighters are swinging at him?

What about the incoporial, especially at low levels?

I agree, I love utility/tactical spells. There is alot more to good wizarding than kaboom, but sometimes ya need to solve your problem with violence. I do like the damage spells in wands/scrolls idea. I have tried to impliment that in characters I have played, but my recent DM's have been a little "tough" on item creation (when there is no down time, it is hard to make stuff) and iyou cant buy a wand in a podunc village.

[Swordguy]

Okay, the cool thing about Fireball is it'll do reasonable damage to a BUNCH of stuff. Hit a group with one or two (seeing how tough they are), and then let the fighter charge in there. With the damage already inflicted upon the group your fighter(s) should have an excellent chance to dropping the creatures and cleaving onto the next ones. We had this same thing happen in my game recently.

A 10 skeletal Trolls were coming at the party in a straight line across the room (presenting a broad front). The wizard dropped a fireball into the middle of them, weakening them by about 3/5ths hp. The two fighters then went straight up the middle. Hit, drop, cleave, drop. Hit, drop, cleave, drop. This happened every round until the skellies were gone. Had the fighters just rushed in without the softening-up process, they would have been in melee for a LONG time with a whole lot of fairly bad-ass opponents.

[Saph]

Wait...I thought we had decided that melee characters were mechanically pointless and inefficient, and everyone should just play full casters. Otherwise they're just bad D&Ders. So, what's the group doing with fighters or such?

(sarcasm, BTW)

Heh, I've had the same thought reading some of the posts here.

But you can look at it another way. D&D is a team game. You don't fight enemies solo, you fight them as part of a group. So it's always made complete sense to me for the wizard not to focus on damage. Why should she? Damage is for the the big, beefy guys with high Strength scores. It makes more sense for the wizard to do what she's best at - debuffs, disables, control spells - and leave damage to the classes that specialise in fighting.

There is one big exception, though, and that's when the monster is low on HP. When a direct damage spell can finish an enemy off in one shot, do it.

- Saph

[Marius]

I stinky clouded (can a spell be a verb?) the monsters, someone has to kill them still. A move action can keep them away from the fighters, or at least some of the hits. and if they (or the DM) are smart, they can draw your team out away from each other untill the effect wears off. Now your group is out of position, or atleast not where they would like to be, and you're still facing the same number of opponents. This says nothing of those that saved.

They will be nauseated for 1d4+1 after they left the cloud and unable to attack you can kill them pretty easily. And you don't have to go into melee you can shoot them as they leave the cloud.

Who is dealing the arcane damage for the party if the wizard is packing all utility spells and you dont have another arcane caster?

No one, you don't care about damage. And it's not only "utility" it's "battlefield control"

What about the monster that has DR against what the fighters are swinging at him?

Deep Slumber, my turn:
What about monsters with fire resistance? And what about Evasion?

What about the incoporial, especially at low levels?

What incorporeal creature do you find before having a few magic weapons? (and by the way there's a cleric spell called "magic weapon").

I agree, I love utility/tactical spells. There is alot more to good wizarding than kaboom, but sometimes ya need to solve your problem with violence. I do like the damage spells in wands/scrolls idea. I have tried to impliment that in characters I have played, but my recent DM's have been a little "tough" on item creation (when there is no down time, it is hard to make stuff) and iyou cant buy a wand in a podunc village.

Really? Give me examples.

[Jasdoif]

Wait...I thought we had decided that melee characters were mechanically pointless and inefficient, and everyone should just play full casters. Otherwise they're just bad D&Ders. So, what's the group doing with fighters or such?

(sarcasm, BTW)

Sorry, I must've missed that thread. I do recall people pointing out that at high levels, melee characters are decidely inefficient because casters and creatures at those levels have a ton of ways to avoid or escape melee contact, but that at lower levels melee fighters do their job admirably.

[iceman]

well in that case you are definately going to need some extra fire power to help the rest of your party out by weakening the enemy a bit. However, i wouldn't trade in every spell in my arsenal for fireballs, lightning bolts, or scorching rays. Also a problem that my party faces with our dm/dms is that we routinely face challenges that would/could make one or more of the party members useless. In my case if I were to prepare the same spells everyday my dm would find a way around or to counter each one of them. If however I redo my entire spell selection every day or every other day then I can keep the dm and thus any enemies that we encounter off balance. The same goes for the rest of the party.
Never use the same tactics over and over again.

[Swordguy]

Sorry, I must've missed that thread. I do recall people pointing out that at high levels, melee characters are decidely inefficient because casters and creatures at those levels have a ton of ways to avoid or escape melee contact, but that at lower levels melee fighters do their job admirably.

You must also have missed the "(Sarcasm, BTW)" portion of my post.

At Marius: You are correct in that there are virtually no situations in D&D where the variety of save-or-suck/die spells aren't better than damage spells, with two exceptions:

1) when access to a direct damage spell is all you have. Some arcane power is better than no arcane power and all that.

2) When your character concept or player demand the DD spells. Some people just want to blow sh&t up every now and then. Dropping an enemy to 0 strength just isn't as satisfying sometimes. Or are people who rely on DD bad roleplayers?

[Renegade Paladin]

One can come to battle in a wide variety of surroundings and conditions. The question arises, of all the magics that have been devised in all the millennia of civilization on Faerun, which ones should the wise war mage employ? There are those who favor spells that isolate or restrict one's enemies or rearrange the terrain in the mage's favor.

Strong points can be made in favor of the strategy of battlefield control. How can one criticize placing one's opponents at a disadvantage? Easily, of course. What is the purpose of war? To destroy one's enemies. Why let your foe live and fight and perhaps alter the situation to favor him when you can strike him down directly?

Why when that is the best choice, of course. A wise man, whether wizard or warrior, makes use of whatever advantages present themselves but one must not forget the purpose is not to seize advantage, but to kill. Battlefield control is thus revealed to be the preferred approach of those magic workers who cannot swiftly inflict devastating injuries upon their foes. In other words, it is the tactic of the weak.

I abhor weakness. The battlefield is controlled when all my foes are dead, preferably while still reaching for their weapons or with the words of their first spell frozen on their dead lips. They tend to be less troublesome that way.

As an aside, a glass dragon falling through the air is truly one of the most beautiful sights one can ever see.

-Nalifan D'Azurentien, in response to a criticism that his tactics lacked subtlety and effectiveness.
^ The in-character response of one of the characters of another person in my group. I won't post the more concise response of Nalifan's dear friend Trizkel, because it contains considerably more profanity despite comprising only two sentences.

[Marius]

You must also have missed the "(Sarcasm, BTW)" portion of my post.

At Marius: You are correct in that there are virtually no situations in D&D where the variety of save-or-suck/die spells aren't better than damage spells, with two exceptions:

1) when access to a direct damage spell is all you have. Some arcane power is better than no arcane power and all that.

2) When your character concept or player demand the DD spells. Some people just want to blow sh&t up every now and then. Dropping an enemy to 0 strength just isn't as satisfying sometimes. Or are people who rely on DD bad roleplayers?

Well yeah, if you want to play a kabom wizard you should take fireball and other damage spells. But in that case I would play a Psion Kineticist ;)

[Kantolin]

Um.

If you're in a party, and the melee-type is there, you may as well use him to do something. Usually 'something' is go poke the sleeping orcs in the face with your pointy thing now that the battle's relevantly over, but may as well have them do it since they are capable of it.

If you have a team of all-wizards or sommat, then you have to prepare some direct damage spells (And carry a backup scythe) amongst your team somewhere. Round one incapacitate the enemies such that the battle's relevantly over, round two start utilizing direct damage or summons or something to kill the enemy.

Not to mention if the fighter can kill people who you have made unconscious/sleeping/unable to defend themselves/unable to attack/weak, then it helps said fighter feel more generally valuable. So I'm all for letting the fighter play cleanup.

...if the cleric or druid don't get to the enemy first, but nevermind that.

[AtomicKitKat]

It's more fun when the 6 Strength Wizard CdG's the paralysed opponents. With his quarterstaff. Using just one hand. Because he lost the other one dropping a fireball on a Magmin. :P

^Rogues do the clean-up admirably too, since most of the save-or-lose spells probably won't work on Undead/Constructs/Plants/Oozes/Swarms, which would likely be the only times I would actively seek out DD. And even against Constructs, some of the DD spells become "Save or Suck".

Edit: Second paragraph added.

[Renegade Paladin]

Mayhaps there were too many big words, so I'll paraphrase: The battlefield is controlled when your enemies are dead, so kill them as quickly as possible. Clue: Stinking cloud never killed anybody.

[Marius]

Another clue: Fireball doesn't kill anybody unless they really suck.

And soon you'll have save-or-die spells while you wizard will be trying to kill enemies with his save-or-take-some-damage-or-not spells.

[Renegade Paladin]

Who said anything about excluding save-or-die? Hell, who said anything about fireball? Battle is about killing your enemies as quickly as possible. Stinking cloud, Evard's black tentacles, or what have you just get in the way. Always.

[Gamebird]

At first level, you can have Magic Missile and do a d4+1 (avg. 3.5 hp) to a single target, or you can do Grease and make a target fall down, take an AoO on getting up and a -4 to hit until he does. At second level your MM still does d4+1 to one target, but your Grease lasts twice as long.

At third level you can pick up Scorching Ray, which is really very nice. You now have to roll to hit, but it does 4d6 damage (avg 14) to one target and a touch attack is hard to fail... unless you're a 3rd level wizard. So don't expect to hit more than half the time. Or you could take Glitterdust, which negates invisibility and causes targets to save vs. blindness, making them 50% likely to miss and gives you bonuses to hit them. Against invisible creatures, it's mandatory.

At fifth level, you could take Fireball or Lightning Bolt and hope the creatures you're fighting arrange themselves within your AoE. If they do, then you can zap them for 5d6 (avg. 17.5) with a save for half. This won't drop most of your foes at this level, but it's nice for the occasional encounter with weenies. Except that if you're encountering weenies, then the fighters can mop them up easily. On the other hand, you could have cast Haste and given 5 people an extra attack each round for 5 rounds. Or you could have cast Stinking Cloud and reduced your foes to partial actions and possible nauseation. Which is better - 17.5 damage with a save, once, or 3 other characters getting an extra attack for 5 rounds? Heck, 3 extra attacks by itself is probably better than the fireball, and Haste will keep giving for another 4 rounds!

At 7th level you could get Ice Storm and do less damage than fireball... well, that sucks. Or you could ... um.. well, Shout does less damage too. And so does Wall of Fire. um... well, there's really nothing as a 4th level direct damage spell that's better than what you've already got. Or you could cast Solid Fog and STOP some of your enemies from moving at all, no save, allowing your allies to pick them off piecemeal.

Let's look at 9th level, where you get mighty 5th level spells! You can kill weenies with Cloudkill... of course, so can the fighters and they'll do a better job of it. Or you could do as much damage as Fireball, with Cone of Cold! Wow! And you only got Fireball, what? 4 levels ago? If you leave the domain of direct damage spells, you can save-or-die the enemy with Baleful Polymorph, Rock to Mud and mire him in place, Hold Monster and allow people to coup de gras him, or Dismiss them entirely if they happen to be an outsider.

The problem is that evocation becomes steadily less useful. As you go up in levels, your opponents get more hit points while your evocation spells don't get much better than they were at 5th level. Your foes get better and better saves, whereas your evocation DC doesn't increase nearly as fast. As a result, your evocation spells take off a smaller and smaller percentage of your foe's hp and the foe is more and more likely to save (and more likely to have SR and resistances). No one has "Resistance to Solid Fog" (well, there's Free Action, but few foes have that). Most of the battlefield control spells don't allow SR or saves. They're just as effective at higher level as they were when they started - moreso even, since it becomes more and more important to immobilize certain enemies while the group tackles foes one at a time.