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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Seharvepernfan's Avatar

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    Default An idea to make archery a better choice

    Point Blank Shot [General]
    Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet. In addition, when equipped with a ranged weapon, you threaten squares as if you were wielding a reach weapon (this does not allow you to flank, however). Each successful attack of opportunity you make with a ranged weapon lowers the target's remaining speed by 10ft, possibly leaving them unable to finish their movement.

    Precise Shot [General]
    Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot
    Benefit: You can shoot or throw ranged weapons at an opponent engaged in melee without taking the standard 4 penalty on your attack roll. In addition, you can flank opponents whom you threaten with a ranged weapon.

    Far Shot [General]
    Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot
    Benefit: When you use a projectile weapon, such as a bow, its range increment increases by one-half (multiply by 1.5). When you use a thrown weapon, its range increment is doubled. In addition, you threaten squares up to one range increment or 30ft away, whichever is shorter. You still do not threaten squares adjacent to yourself.
    Last edited by Seharvepernfan; 2017-03-20 at 04:13 PM.
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    Default Re: An idea to make archery a better choice

    I think one of the major reasons why archery is unattractive is because it's already extremely feat-intensive to use effectively. New feats wouldn't help solve that problem.
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    Default Re: An idea to make archery a better choice

    Hmm. If we changed PBS to do the first thing listed in my last post, and added #2 on to precise shot, let far shot also give you the upgraded range (up to 30ft instead of a longspear's threatened squares), and left #3 as a feat of it's own, what then?
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    Default Re: An idea to make archery a better choice

    Edited first post.
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    Default Re: An idea to make archery a better choice

    One of the big obstacles in archery is the lack of a simple scaling flexibility-adding ability like Power Attack. Deadly Aim comes close but the fixed 1:1 is still a major hindrance.

    Something like:

    Deadly Aim
    BAB +1
    When you use a ranged weapon, at the beginning of your turn, you may opt take a penalty of any number up to your full Base Attack Bonus on all ranged attack rolls until the beginning of your next turn. Any successful attacks you make deal extra damage equal to the penalty you took.
    As a move action, you may steady your aim on a particular foe; if you do so, the damage bonus you gain from this feat rises to twice the penalty you take on attack rolls.

    It doesn't give you a pouncing leap attack or anything, but it's a lot easier to get off full attacks as a ranged character anyway, and the aiming feature lets you get the normal 2h-after-a-charge feature.

    I do [i]like[i] the Stand Still you originally added to it, mind: the inability to interact with the world beyond "hit it" is an even bigger issue for ranged characters than other martials, and threatening, flanking and immobilizing is a good step. You might also consider making it easier to sunder, disarm, slow, trip, daze, or otherwise direct the flow of battle with an archer. Considering what an iconic fantasy trope it is to stick somebody to a wall with an arrow or batarang. Ranged Pin costing three feats and a non-scaling escape DC is just insulting.
    Last edited by Sindeloke; 2014-09-09 at 05:13 AM.

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    Default Re: An idea to make archery a better choice

    While I like these ideas and I don't think they're overpowered, there's a slight disconnect from the nature of AoO's that I feel needs to be mentioned.
    To make an AoO, you need to have a weapon in hand, ready to use. With a sword or melee weapon, that's easy. With archery, that means holding an arrow pulled, but not firing. Which is counter-intuitive to the idea of rapid shot and full-attacks and whatever else.
    Perhaps requiring a readied action might make it make mroe sense thematically.
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    Default Re: An idea to make archery a better choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindeloke View Post
    One of the big obstacles in archery is the lack of a simple scaling flexibility-adding ability like Power Attack. Deadly Aim comes close but the fixed 1:1 is still a major hindrance.
    I kinda agree, but I didn't want archery to step in on melee's game. A two-hander really ought to do more damage than a bowman. I don't think it's a "major" hindrance, especially when you consider that archers can effectively "double up" on weapon enhancements, since arrows can be enhanced as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindeloke View Post
    but it's a lot easier to get off full attacks as a ranged character anyway, and the aiming feature lets you get the normal 2h-after-a-charge feature.
    You lost me here; I don't think I know what you're talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindeloke View Post
    I do [i]like[i] the Stand Still you originally added to it, mind: the inability to interact with the world beyond "hit it" is an even bigger issue for ranged characters than other martials, and threatening, flanking and immobilizing is a good step. You might also consider making it easier to sunder, disarm, slow, trip, daze, or otherwise direct the flow of battle with an archer. Considering what an iconic fantasy trope it is to stick somebody to a wall with an arrow or batarang. Ranged Pin costing three feats and a non-scaling escape DC is just insulting.
    Agreed. I'll see if I can think of anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by gr8artist View Post
    While I like these ideas and I don't think they're overpowered, there's a slight disconnect from the nature of AoO's that I feel needs to be mentioned.
    To make an AoO, you need to have a weapon in hand, ready to use. With a sword or melee weapon, that's easy. With archery, that means holding an arrow pulled, but not firing. Which is counter-intuitive to the idea of rapid shot and full-attacks and whatever else.
    Perhaps requiring a readied action might make it make mroe sense thematically.
    I hear ya, but consider that we don't really do this kind of thinking for casters. It's easy to get hung up on stuff like this, while letting Spells McSlingy have the caster equivalent of a bow, a sword, power attack, pounce, a bomb, improved trip, hide, etc, all ready to use with a single standard action each. Also, his are probably gonna be better. He just has to have them still available to cast.

    I know there's other balancing factors (however feeble they may be), but it's not fair. A caster should have more limitations, obviously, but they don't. Then there's the whole "dragons can fly" line of argument, which I'm not gonna get into.

    My point is, I see your point, and I agree with you on the logic, but where the game is concerned, I'm okay with it. It's either do something like this, or nobody plays an effective archer without serious shenanigans.
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    Default Re: An idea to make archery a better choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Seharvepernfan View Post
    I kinda agree, but I didn't want archery to step in on melee's game. A two-hander really ought to do more damage than a bowman. I don't think it's a "major" hindrance, especially when you consider that archers can effectively "double up" on weapon enhancements, since arrows can be enhanced as well.

    [...]

    You lost me here; I don't think I know what you're talking about.
    I've never found doubling up on weapon enhancements to be as potent as it sounds, given the recovery rate on ammunition and the opportunity cost of those extra enchantments. I mean at least when you blow all your cash on an off-hand weapon, you only have to do it once.

    Basically you're not going to match a pouncing Leap Attack Shock Trooper berserker with an enchanted polearm and a 1:4 Power Attack tradeoff, period. What I was aiming for with my Deadly Aim adjustment is that you can either duplicate a low-damage sword-and-board full attack (use the feat to trade at 1:1, then make a full attack), or you can duplicate a moderate damage 2hander charge (use the feat to take a move action to aim, then trade at 1:2 for a single standard attack). This brings you up to where a low-level 2h fighter sits after one feat, and in no way even takes you close to what a pouncing Leap Attack 2h fighter can do.

    Then, if you want to preserve 2h damage supremacy (which I agree, is a fair thing to do), you can give archery more feats for battlefield control (which you've done here), instead of the feats for more damage that the 2hander has access to.

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    Default Re: An idea to make archery a better choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindeloke View Post
    What I was aiming for with my Deadly Aim adjustment is that you can either duplicate a low-damage sword-and-board full attack (use the feat to trade at 1:1, then make a full attack), or you can duplicate a moderate damage 2hander charge (use the feat to take a move action to aim, then trade at 1:2 for a single standard attack).
    A two-hander who is power-attacking already gets 1:2, on all attacks. You were talking about 3.5, right?

    Wait... You weren't saying that they only get it on a charge, you were saying we should allow archers to do it once a round like a two-hander who is charging. Right?

    If so, I wouldn't give up my other attacks just for that.
    Last edited by Seharvepernfan; 2014-09-09 at 07:42 PM.
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    Default Re: An idea to make archery a better choice

    Deadly Aim should be changed. While the idea is a good one, it doesn't make sense fluff-wise. The reason Power Attack subtracts from BAB is that the theory is that you're forgoing aiming, and just swinging with everything you've got. You can't do that with a bow. A more realistic solution (fluff-wise), would be to make it so that you just increase the threat range of your weapon (not even a penalty to BAB), based on your BAB. Something like increasing the threat range of the shot by 1 every 4-5 points of BAB could work.
    Last edited by 1pwny; 2014-09-09 at 07:05 PM.
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    Default Re: An idea to make archery a better choice

    Quote Originally Posted by somebody27else View Post
    Deadly Aim should be changed. While the idea is a good one, it doesn't make sense fluff-wise. The reason Power Attack subtracts from BAB is that the theory is that you're forgoing aiming, and just swinging with everything you've got. You can't do that with a bow. A more realistic solution (fluff-wise), would be to make it so that you just increase the threat range of your weapon (not even a penalty to BAB), based on your BAB. Something like increasing the threat range of the shot by 1 every 4-5 points of BAB could work.
    I snagged deadly aim from pathfinder, where it's fluff is "You can make exceptionally deadly ranged attacks by pinpointing a foe's weak spot, at the expense of making the attack less likely to succeed."
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    Default Re: An idea to make archery a better choice

    DA in PF still has some issues. Aiming at the bull's eye doesn't make it any harder to hit the target. PA in PF is a penalty of 1 + 1/4 BAB and a bonus of 2 + 2/4 BAB, and DA follows the same mechanic. It might make more sense to have DA penalize AC, since you're dropping focus on everything else so that you can focus on your target even more. Or just change DA to a bonus of 1/4 BAB with no penalty and call it good.
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    Default Re: An idea to make archery a better choice

    I agree that deadly aim isn't perfect. My beef with it is that you get extra damage from aiming, but it's not considered precision damage like sneak attack. Power attack deals extra damage because you're swinging harder, so deadly aim should maybe be that you're throwing harder or pulling way back on the string of the bow (makes no sense with crossbows). Why can a melee guy hit harder from taking a feat that says he can now swing harder at the expense of accuracy, but not a ranged guy?

    Even assuming that makes sense, there's still the problem of the stand-still effect that I attached to it; why couldn't a melee fighter make somebody stop moving by hitting them? Why is it a fortitude save and not a strength-related one? Admittedly, I just thought it would balance things out mechanically; I agree that it doesn't make perfect sense.

    I can get past the "nocking, aiming, and shooting an arrow as an AoO". You can do that as a standard attack (it's not an action to draw and nock an arrow; it's part of the attack action) or with each attack in a full-attack. Hell, you can fire off more arrows per round than you can swings with a sword, due to rapid shot. I don't know of any feats that replicate rapid shot for melee combatants (other than TWF).

    As said earlier, archery is feat-intensive as is, and you can't make combat maneuvers with it (like improved trip or bull rush), so letting them have this seems fair (if not totally logical, fluff-wise). They still deal less damage, and it's still probably easier to trip someone on an AoO than it is to stop them with this (except for big quadrupeds or whatever), and even so, they're only stopped, not tripped.

    The suggestion for increasing the critical threat range does make sense, fluff-wise, but then how does it connect with improved critical? Wouldn't we have to make similar feats for other combat types? The suggestion for lowering AC instead of attack also makes sense, but that seems like it would be too harsh on the archer (who probably doesn't have a very good AC to begin with).
    Last edited by Seharvepernfan; 2014-09-10 at 03:45 AM.
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